Virgin Trains at Stockport say I should miss my connection to buy a ticket

[Haywain]

Not discretion when the TOC has got it wrong.

But very much discretion when the customer has got it wrong.

 

[Eboordna]

One unnamed TOC is clarifying their position on this in a company-wide update on many ticket policies in the next couple of weeks. This will make it clear that customers should never be penalised if they don't have time to buy a ticket due to a short connection. On the other hand, discretion for being on the wrong train with an Advance ticket is being cracked down on.

 

[VauxhallandI]

But very much discretion when the customer has got it wrong.

That's exactly what I didn't say

 

[Mathew S]

In my opinion, and it's only my opinion, the 'attitude test' is all about how you come across to the staff involved. If you appear to be dismissive of the rules, arrogant, rude, or just generally awkward, why should the staff member use what discretion they have to help you out?
On the other hand, if you're calm, polite, apologetic if appropriate, and generally co-operative, then it's only human that the member of staff is more likely to be willing to use their discretion in your favour.

The one and only occasion I've ever had a ticketing issue with Northern was early one morning when their previous app refused to let me download an m-ticket I'd purchased online. I couldn't contact their app support people - who apparently weren't yet at work - so the CEC told me I could just show the receipt for the ticket to the gateline at Picadilly. Of course, I was aware that I didn't have a ticket; that the receipt says at the very top of it that it isn't a ticket; and that I had no proof that the CEC had told me what they had. However, I'm sure in part because I was apologetic and polite, the gateline staff just asked to see my railcard, and then let me through. Had I come across as more obstreperous, eg. "your stupid app wouldn't let me get my f**ing ticket", then I'm sure the outcome would have been different.

When I worked in retail as a student, customers who were polite and friendly would often get fresher/larger portions, and faster, more attentive service (it was a restaurant), than those who did something to annoy us.
Both of those are valid examples of the attitude test, and why the principle of 'treat others as you would like to be treated yourself' is as valid now as it has ever been.

 

[theblackwatch]

In my opinion, and it's only my opinion, the 'attitude test' is all about how you come across to the staff involved. If you appear to be dismissive of the rules, arrogant, rude, or just generally awkward, why should the staff member use what discretion they have to help you out?
On the other hand, if you're calm, polite, apologetic if appropriate, and generally co-operative, then it's only human that the member of staff is more likely to be willing to use their discretion in your favour.

The attitude problem works both ways. On a journey out of King's Cross a few years back, a middle-aged lady opposite me only had her booking confirmation and hadn't printed her ticket out. The sneering way the ticket examiner dealt with her, telling her it was her own fault and she should have read things properly, was - frankly - embarrasing, especially as, while upset, she didn't show any attitude. Yes, he was correct to charge her, but he could have shown some empathy, perhaps by saying "I'm sorry but I will have to charge you, however you may like to speak to customer services and see if there is anything they can do for you".

 

[Mathew S]

The attitude problem works both ways. On a journey out of King's Cross a few years back, a middle-aged lady opposite me only had her booking confirmation and hadn't printed her ticket out. The sneering way the ticket examiner dealt with her, telling her it was her own fault and she should have read things properly, was - frankly - embarrasing, especially as, while upset, she didn't show any attitude. Yes, he was correct to charge her, but he could have shown some empathy, perhaps by saying "I'm sorry but I will have to charge you, however you may like to speak to customer services and see if there is anything they can do for you".

Absolutely. At the end of the day, there's no excuse for staff in a customer service role being rude, or patronising, or whatever, to their customers. Doesn't do them or the company they represent any favours.

 

[Clip]

The attitude problem works both ways. On a journey out of King's Cross a few years back, a middle-aged lady opposite me only had her booking confirmation and hadn't printed her ticket out. The sneering way the ticket examiner dealt with her, telling her it was her own fault and she should have read things properly, was - frankly - embarrasing, especially as, while upset, she didn't show any attitude. Yes, he was correct to charge her, but he could have shown some empathy, perhaps by saying "I'm sorry but I will have to charge you, however you may like to speak to customer services and see if there is anything they can do for you".

Oh very much so - though you can see by the way some threads are written - including this very thread which has yet to be altered or had an apology to Northern - that no wonder so many people fail the attitude test when they are confronted by what may or may not be a ticketing irregularity.

You can always complain to TOCs about staff members poor behavior but passengers just keep on with the same old same old

 

[robbeech]

The attitude of both parties will always play a part. I fully agree that being polite will often help you, if you may have made a mistake, and even if it is a staff member that is in the wrong there is no need for poor attitude in any initial conversation. Always try to be slightly nicer than they are, even if they’re really helpful and friendly. If they’re arrogant towards you, continue to be nice, it often confuses them into being nice.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Oh very much so - though you can see by the way some threads are written - including this very thread which has yet to be altered or had an apology to Northern - that no wonder so many people fail the attitude test when they are confronted by what may or may not be a ticketing irregularity.

You can always complain to TOCs about staff members poor behavior but passengers just keep on with the same old same old

The connection to Northern was made in error by me and not the individual who had the experience.

I didn't come on here to apologise to another's when corrected as that feels a little weird and frankly unnecessary as this is not a Northern forum manned by Northern staff.

 

[ricoblade]

The attitude of both parties will always play a part. I fully agree that being polite will often help you, if you may have made a mistake, and even if it is a staff member that is in the wrong there is no need for poor attitude in any initial conversation. Always try to be slightly nicer than they are, even if they’re really helpful and friendly. If they’re arrogant towards you, continue to be nice, it often confuses them into being nice.

Totally agree - I made a right cock up with my tickets last week and only noticed when I saw the guard (boarded at a barrier free station) and actually looked at the date on the ticket. I politely stopped him and asked if I could but a new one. He went out of his way to sell me the cheapest one he could find, actually from several stops later than where I got on and that we hadn't even reached yet!

 

[LowLevel]

The attitude problem works both ways. On a journey out of King's Cross a few years back, a middle-aged lady opposite me only had her booking confirmation and hadn't printed her ticket out. The sneering way the ticket examiner dealt with her, telling her it was her own fault and she should have read things properly, was - frankly - embarrasing, especially as, while upset, she didn't show any attitude. Yes, he was correct to charge her, but he could have shown some empathy, perhaps by saying "I'm sorry but I will have to charge you, however you may like to speak to customer services and see if there is anything they can do for you".

There's always suitable ways of going about things. I am not known for being particularly heavy on tickets - I check them religiously but if I wanted to be involved in smacking innocent mistakes with penalty fares or whatever I'd choose to be a revenue protection inspector rather than a guard. If anything I am probably too lenient.

However every now and then you just get a moment where you can't help but apply the so called attitude test.

My most recent one was a couple with a two together card that was about a week or so out of date. I breathed in, smiled, said hello and got about half way through my sentence intended to point out their card was out of date, but as it was marginal endorse their tickets and ask them to sort it out.

The bloke then cut me off, gave a massive tut, declared that I was a ridiculous jobsworth and enquired as to whether I had anything better to do than point out little things like that.

Consequently I changed course, smiled politely again and smacked his credit card for 85 quid for a pair of new undiscounted tickets.

I don't want subservience and I genuinely like to be told when I'm wrong (my usual approach with that is to do some research and share my findings with the person concerned however it works out) but anyone pulling the J word is just asking to be beaten with a huge stick - plumbers, electricians, chefs are expected to do their job properly and cutting corners is heavily frowned upon. Dear me if a ticket inspector or traffic warden dares to stick to the rules though!

 

[farleigh]

Great post LL.

You sound very fair, and I totally understand your application of the 'test'.
Sounds like that man deserved everything he got.

 

[Marton]

Just looked at the conditions of travel and there is an information box

INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.​

Sufficient time is the key. All the change times I’ve ever seen are about getting from A to B. Not queuing at the ticket office or machine.

Are we expected to keep a copy of the conditions on us when we travel?

 

[robbeech]

No, we shouldn’t have to at all, because railway staff should either know it or be able to refer to a copy of it themselves if they are not sure. In the real world however we find a small number of railway staff will either know it or make up something that works in their favour. For this reason I’m sad to say it’s worth having at least an electronic copy on a phone as it might help you both.
We could of course employ the attitude test here too. You could politely say that a particular section of the NRCOT says this and allow them to look at it on your phone, their response then determines your next response. It should very rarely be a problem.

 

[bakerstreet]

If they’re arrogant towards you, continue to be nice, it often confuses them into being nice.

Brilliant line - confuses them...-this made me laugh out loud and is very very true

 

[Gareth Marston]

There's always suitable ways of going about things. I am not known for being particularly heavy on tickets - I check them religiously but if I wanted to be involved in smacking innocent mistakes with penalty fares or whatever I'd choose to be a revenue protection inspector rather than a guard. If anything I am probably too lenient.

However every now and then you just get a moment where you can't help but apply the so called attitude test.

My most recent one was a couple with a two together card that was about a week or so out of date. I breathed in, smiled, said hello and got about half way through my sentence intended to point out their card was out of date, but as it was marginal endorse their tickets and ask them to sort it out.

The bloke then cut me off, gave a massive tut, declared that I was a ridiculous jobsworth and enquired as to whether I had anything better to do than point out little things like that.

Consequently I changed course, smiled politely again and smacked his credit card for 85 quid for a pair of new undiscounted tickets.

I don't want subservience and I genuinely like to be told when I'm wrong (my usual approach with that is to do some research and share my findings with the person concerned however it works out) but anyone pulling the J word is just asking to be beaten with a huge stick - plumbers, electricians, chefs are expected to do their job properly and cutting corners is heavily frowned upon. Dear me if a ticket inspector or traffic warden dares to stick to the rules though!

I had a women come in with elderly but not that old mother earlier this week cheapest possible ticket to Coventry on Thursday big debate as to best place to change no railcard we were quite they had plenty of time from me. Sold them AP gave them print out of journey etc told them they have to be on certain train. Thursday comes 4 minutes after booked train departs on time they rock up on platform and come in complaining that train has already gone...

 

[robbeech]

Brilliant line - confuses them...-this made me laugh out loud and is very very true

It’s a trick I use in my job when you get a band member who feels it appropriate to be an idiot. If you get nicer and nicer to them their brains cannot fathom it out and they often also become nice.

 

[LowLevel]

My employer has a policy entitled 'doing the right thing'. The gist of it is effectively that the benefit of the doubt/leniency/whatever you wish to call it should be used to the maximum at the discretion of the inspector, be they a guard, revenue protection inspector or gateline operator, in recognition that many of the railway ticketing rules are at best arcane and at worst contradictory.

In accordance with that policy I won't penalise someone for a couple of days over the expiry date of their railcard, because what's the point. It might put someone off travelling again. By it's nature being a couple of days beyond a railcard expiry date is not something that can be subject to regular abuse, because you're shortly into weeks and months.

If however on advising someone of their breach of the rules they choose to treat it in a dismissive and/or downright unpleasant fashion, the inspector is within their rights to impose the appropriate consequence in line with the regulation in question.

My company also has a hierarchy of the importance of your duties in their view. It is as follows:

1st - safety and timekeeping
2nd - customer service
3rd - revenue protection

 

[robbeech]

This is without doubt the best way of looking at it.
It’s a shame other members of the forum seem to look at it in a considerably different way. One hopes that they’d be treated accordingly if ever they made a mistake with ticketing.

 

[yorkie]

Agreed. Excellent posts @LowLevel

In contrast, several staff at Paddington say you cannot take your booked aervise in accordance with your itinerary or reservation if they think the ticket should not be valid on that service.

The huge gulf in attitudes is astonishing at times.

 

[exile]

This is without doubt the best way of looking at it.
It’s a shame other members of the forum seem to look at it in a considerably different way. One hopes that they’d be treated accordingly if ever they made a mistake with ticketing.

These people NEVER make mistakes.

 

[CentralTrainer]

These people NEVER make mistakes.

Or they never admit it is them in the wrong

 

[londonbridge]

Be rude to a shop assistant and you might be surprised how long they can take to deal with you or what discounts you won't get offered.

Kid came into the shop and asked for cigarrettes.

Me: Do you have your ID?
Kid: No mate, I'm twenty.
M: Sorry, can't serve you I'm afraid
K: Oh come on mate, I need some fags
M: Sorry but we have to ID you if you look under 25, I can't serve you.
K: Mate, I just want some fags, yeah?
M: Sorry, no ID, no sale
K: You're a fu**ing idiot
M (raises voice); Ok, leave the shop.
Kid starts arguing more but I cut him off: "OUT"! He leaves.

Two nights later he comes back in, comes to the counter and waves his ID right in my face

K: Oi, boss, you gonna sell me some fags now, yeah?
M: Actually no I'm not.
K: What, I'm showing you my ID ain't I?
M: Maybe, but there was no need for you to swear at me the other night so I'm still not serving you.
K: Oh come ON mate.
M: No, you can't talk to me like that one night and then come back in and expect me to carry on as though nothing happened, I'm not serving you till you apologise for swearing.
K: Oh mate....

At this point the supervisor comes over to see what's going on. I tell him what happened. Kid starts arguing with the supervisor that we have to serve him because he's shown his ID. I repeat that i'll serve him if he apologises. Argument carries on for another couple of minutes before he leaves, still without any fags........Haven't seen him back in the shop since.

 

[47421]

Note that in relation to penalty fares the law now makes clear no penalty fare can be charged where passenger has no tic in circumstances after starting journey in circumstances when no PF is applicable, and has changed trains and "did not have sufficient time between leaving one train and boarding the next to purchase a travel ticket" (see The Railway (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, effective 6 April 2018).

Sufficient time is not defined in the regs. In the National Conditions of Travel sufficient time is used per para 20 (Changing trains) below

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/pdfs/uksi_20180366_en.pdf
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/pdfs/uksiem_20180366_en.pdf

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf


"If your journey requires a change of trains, you must allow sufficient time to make your connection when selecting the trains you wish to use. Train times shown at www.nationalrail.co.uk or on any journey plan provided by a Train Company or Licensed Retailer will allow sufficient time for making your change of trains. You can also ask for advice on this when purchasing your Ticket at a station."


Has there been a thread on the latest Penalty Fare regs? There are some other interesting clarifications, including that no PF if passenger was not able to pay "using any means of payment the passenger has available at the relevant time ... where would usually be able to purchase tic at station in question at the relevant time of day using one of those means of payment" (para 6(4)), and

amount of PF is £20 or twice full single fare where full single fare is determined by reference to "the day and time of the journey", which to my mind means that off peak or super off peak fares apply if valid at the day and time in question, otherwise regs would say regardless of the day and time (para 9(6)).

 

[swt_passenger]

...Has there been a thread on the latest Penalty Fare regs?

There’s been plenty of discussion already, but mostly in the existing “Northern new penalty fare scheme” thread, AFAICT there wasn’t ever a brand new named thread on this subject...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-to-introduce-a-penalty-fare-scheme.156494/page-20