Northern to introduce a Penalty fare scheme

[CHAPS2034]

There’s a sign up at Victoria stating it’s going to be a Penalty Fare station from 14 May, but no information other than that.

There's an electronic "poster" on the bridge at Piccadilly too which infers the whole place will be a penalty fares zone from the same date. May be others around too. Didn't have time to read the detail as I had a 2 minute connection - which was made

Cheers CW

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

The Penalty Fare routes added in May will be:

York-Man Vic via Hebden
York-Harrogate-Leeds
Man Picc-Man Airport-Wilmslow
Liverpool-Manchester (both routes)
Leeds-Moorthorpe-Sheffield

As you can see, there are no routes involving Hull

 

[moliones]

The Penalty Fare routes added in May will be:

York-Man Vic via Hebden
York-Harrogate-Leeds
Man Picc-Man Airport-Wilmslow
Liverpool-Manchester (both routes)
Leeds-Moorthorpe-Sheffield

As you can see, there are no routes involving Hull

Well, I can't comment on the suitability of Hull routes to have PFs applied, but I'm not surprised the Hull Daily Mail seem to have got it slightly/very wrong.

 

[scrapy]

The Penalty Fare routes added in May will be:

York-Man Vic via Hebden
York-Harrogate-Leeds
Man Picc-Man Airport-Wilmslow
Liverpool-Manchester (both routes)
Leeds-Moorthorpe-Sheffield

As you can see, there are no routes involving Hull

I didn't think there was such a thing as penalty fares routes just penalty fares stations?

Whether or not you can be penalty fared depends on where you started your journey. For example somebody travelling from Ashburys to Urmston could not be penalty fared on arrival at Urmston as they started their journey at a non penalty fares station. However somebody travelling Manchester Picc to Ashburys without a valid ticket could theoretically be penalty fared at Ashburys despite it being not being a penalty fares station because they had begun their journey at a penalty fares station.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

I didn't think there was such a thing as penalty fares routes just penalty fares stations?

Whether or not you can be penalty fared depends on where you started your journey. For example somebody travelling from Ashburys to Urmston could not be penalty fared on arrival at Urmston as they started their journey at a non penalty fares station. However somebody travelling Manchester Picc to Ashburys without a valid ticket could theoretically be penalty fared at Ashburys despite it being not being a penalty fares station because they had begun their journey at a penalty fares station.

It's meant as those are the routes/services where Penalty Fares will be enforced. More will be added as more machines go in

 

[Bungle965]

There's an electronic "poster" on the bridge at Piccadilly too which infers the whole place will be a penalty fares zone from the same date. May be others around too. Didn't have time to read the detail as I had a 2 minute connection - which was made

Cheers CW

Just had a look while passing through today, and sure enough here is the notice.
Sam

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren’t signs at stations used by multiple operators such as Man Picc supposed to make it clear which TOCs are in or out of the scheme?

 

[furlong]

Interesting if they've decided not to exclude the airport. Will they be producing notices and leaflets in languages other than English, I wonder.

Last time I was there there were queues at the small number of ticket machines and the ticket office was closed (at a time it was meant to be open) and it took me quite some time to find the text saying you may choose to buy on board when it is closed (which most people would not spot).

 

[Merseysider]

The ticket buying facilities at the Airport are completely inadequate.

A tiny ticket office and 4 machines doesn’t suffice - at times I’ve seen queues of more than 20 people waiting to purchase.

 

[Starmill]

The Penalty Fare routes added in May will be:

York-Man Vic via Hebden
York-Harrogate-Leeds
Man Picc-Man Airport-Wilmslow
Liverpool-Manchester (both routes)
Leeds-Moorthorpe-Sheffield

As you can see, there are no routes involving Hull

Has there not been a clear, official statement on this? I understand of course that your information is likely to be correct and I'm not questioning it, but has it actually been announced by the company in these terms? If it has I can't see it.

Isn't it a requirement to produce a map if not all stations on your network are in the scheme (as applies here).

The SRA were right in my view not to allow Port stations to be included. Stansted Airport and Southend Airport still aren't. Manchester Airport should not be either, but no surprise there. Another let down from the DfT.

The SRA were also right not to allow unstaffed stations to be included in most circumstances. Almost all stations between Leeds and Sheffield via Moorthorpe are unstaffed. This is obviously not a suitable route for penalty fares. A significant number of stations on the Harrogate line and Calder Valley line are also unstaffed. Crazy.

 

[Starmill]

Aren’t signs at stations used by multiple operators such as Man Picc supposed to make it clear which TOCs are in or out of the scheme?

I think that requirement may have been quietly dropped.

 

[TEW]

Aren’t signs at stations used by multiple operators such as Man Picc supposed to make it clear which TOCs are in or out of the scheme?

You'll notice on the brand new SWR Penalty Fare posters which have appeared in the last week or so that CrossCountry's logo is on the bottom of the poster, previously Penalty Fares did not apply to CrossCountry services, and that was mentioned on the posters.

 

[swt_passenger]

You'll notice on the brand new SWR Penalty Fare posters which have appeared in the last week or so that CrossCountry's logo is on the bottom of the poster, previously Penalty Fares did not apply to CrossCountry services, and that was mentioned on the posters.

Are they tailored to individual stations, I was pretty sure I saw one at Fareham updated for SWR, SN & GWR. Will check next time I’m along there ...

 

[TEW]

Are they tailored to individual stations, I was pretty sure I saw one at Fareham updated for SWR, SN & GWR. Will check next time I’m along there ...

Well the one I saw was at Farnham, so reference to any other TOC pretty irrelevant!

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Has there not been a clear, official statement on this? I understand of course that your information is likely to be correct and I'm not questioning it, but has it actually been announced by the company in these terms? If it has I can't see it.

You can marry the list up from the accounts the various papers have put out, and they've received the information from us - the way this is done is always region-by-region rather than with one big statement. Internally the full list has been sent around

 

[Starmill]

I meant information from the company, not information from newspapers or from an online forum

I will assume that this means they have not provided anything then. There are no signs up on my line yet.

 

[johntea]

That generic '14 May' poster seems to have just gone up everywhere, there was one up at Harrogate just past the barriers this evening.

Quite a few of the stations on the York-Harrogate-Leeds line only have one TVM to cover both platforms, frequently out of order! There are 5 of the video screen ones in the Harrogate main concourse...3 of which are currently out of order!

 

[scrapy]

The SRA were right in my view not to allow Port stations to be included. Stansted Airport and Southend Airport still aren't. Manchester Airport should not be either, but no surprise there. Another let down from the DfT.

There are plenty of stations that I'd class as port stations that are penalty fares stations.

Gatwick Airport
Birmingham International
Liverpool South Parkway
Dover Priory
Southampton Airport Parkway
Southampton Central
London St Pancras
London Kings Cross

Off national rail there is:-

Heathrow tube stations
Airport station on the Tyne and Wear Metro
Manchester Airport Metrolink station(called standard fare but very similar)

I don't see why Manchester Airport shouldn't be one. A proper penalty fares scheme is surely better than Northerns 80 pound unofficial scheme.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

I meant information from the company, not information from newspapers or from an online forum

I will assume that this means they have not provided anything then. There are no signs up on my line yet.

What I mean is the papers got it from official statements from the company. It's just that there wasn't one big statement. The Northern network's so big, the way releases are sent out tends to be done regionally - i.e. they'll send a Manchester-specific statement to Manchester papers, a Merseyside-specific statement to Merseyside papers etc. They are only sent details relevant to their area, rather than the bigger picture for the whole of Northern

So we've confirmed all of the routes - just not together

 

[Starmill]

Yes but given your decision to inform the papers and not the customers then obviously means nobody knows what is going on because of the low quality of the reporting. Most people who read the Hull Daily Mail will think that penalty fares are coming to routes near them. You haven't "confirmed" anything - as I say there are not even posters up round here.

 

[Starmill]

I don't see why Manchester Airport shouldn't be one. A proper penalty fares scheme is surely better than Northerns 80 pound unofficial scheme.

In my view the rules which applied previously were sound and deviation from them should not have been allowed by the DfT. It's just another way to rip people off:

Is a penalty fares scheme appropriate?

4.1 When considering a penalty fares scheme, we will first consider whether penalty fares are appropriate, given the type of train service provided and the other ways in which that operator could protect its revenue. A penalty fares scheme is most suited to urban or suburban train services where most stations have ticket facilities, and where busy trains and short intervals between stations make it impossible to check every passenger's ticket between every stop. We may question the need for a penalty fares scheme to cover long-distance services, where a conductor is able to check every passenger, or rural services operated as 'paytrains', where most stations are unstaffed and it is normal practice to buy tickets on board the train

• Ticket restrictions. Many types of ticket cannot be used at certain times of day, on certain days of the week or on certain trains. These ticket restrictions can be complicated, and even familiar tickets such as cheap day returns can have different restrictions on different routes. If a passenger travels on a train on which their ticket is not valid, it is more likely that the restrictions were not properly explained to them than that they are deliberately trying to avoid paying the right fare. We believe that it is up to the train operators to make sure that each passenger understands the restrictions which apply to the ticket which they are sold. Under rule 7, a passenger may not be charged a penalty fare if he or she has a ticket for the journey which they are making that is not valid on that train only because of a ticket restriction. In these cases, the passenger only needs to pay the excess fare, in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

However, an operator may not want to include certain stations for a number of reasons. For example, if the station:
...
* serves a port or airport and is used by a large number of foreign visitors and people who do not often travel by train, making it undesirable to charge penalty fares to passengers from this station.

Of course, there will be lots of people willing to defend changes made to allow operators to be less scrupulous with issuing Penalty Fares. The main objective here appears to be to allow as many Penalty Fares as possible to be issued, without giving the proper notice or following the rules on signage. Given that I know from experience that Northern have treated people who have done nothing wrong with contempt before, I see them adding large numbers of unstaffed stations and airports to a scheme as unacceptable.

 

[moliones]

So, perhaps as a consequence of low-quality journalism, coupled with lack of an authoritative statement from Northern, the Hull Daily Mail has an article "clarifying" the earlier article about penalty fares.

Northern has clarified its stance after passengers expressed their dismay at a new policy that would have seen them fined for buying a ticket on a train.

The operator, which runs services from Hull, is introducing new £20 fines or double the fare price for passengers who arrive at their destination without a ticket.

It had previously said, as reported in the Mail , that passengers would not be able to buy a ticket on board and would face the fine if they couldn't present a valid ticket.

However, a Northern spokesman has since clarified that in fact all passengers WILL still be able to buy tickets on board - despite the campaign being called ‘Buy Before you Board’.

Passengers who can’t prove they tried to buy a ticket before boarding won’t be able to get a cheaper-rate ticket, though, and will have to buy a standard one.

[...]

Passengers arriving at their destination without a ticket will be fined.

(yes, it is normal in that fine newspaper for one sentence = one paragraph)

Now, following a link to the story on the Manchester Evening News site, (all the text above was copied by the HDM from the MEN, which is where a proper statement from Northern would be helpful, as the newspapers are apparently not able to communicate where the story applies to), there is some more information, which I haven't seen before.

Following the M.E.N’s story, a Northern spokesman said: “Conductors on the penalty fare routes will still be able to issue standard tickets to customers as they do presently. Ticket checks will only take place at stations and it is only at this point that customers may be issued with penalty fares.

[...]

“If queues are too long for customers to wait to purchase a ticket before boarding a train this should be explained to the collectors who will, again, use discretion to determine whether a penalty fare should be issued. If a penalty is issued, the customer can appeal – using a tried and tested independent process – and Northern will investigate checking CCTV etc to corroborate the customer’s account.”

[...]
- What happens if you get to the station with only moments to spare before the train arrives and someone is using the machine?

You will still be able to buy a ticket on the train, but will only be able to purchase a standard fare.

Does that last point mean that the most you would ever have to pay is the standard fare (anytime single?)?

It's all so much clearer now.

 

[Starmill]

I have recieved word from Northern's Customer Experience Centre on the subject of this.

...it is not the conductor’s duty to sell tickets but solely to
operate the doors and ensure passengers alight the train safely.
If you are boarding at an unmanned station or there are excessive ques. There are many ways to purchase tickets before
boarding, M- tickets and E tickets are now available, therefore we expect passengers to utilise all options.

Interesting changes... I was not previously aware of them removing the ticket selling duty from conductors.

Their second sentence does not make much sense to me personally.

 

[peri]

Thinking ahead to a time when possibly guards are thin on the ground; would it be easy to install a ticket machine on the trains?

 

[swt_passenger]

Well the one I saw was at Farnham, so reference to any other TOC pretty irrelevant!

Checked a couple today. Southampton and Swanwick both include the full set of 5, SWR, SN, GWR, XC and Thameslink, which firmly suggests there must be one generic poster for all SWR stations. Must be simplification again...

 

[hawk1911]

I have recieved word from Northern's Customer Experience Centre on the subject of this.

...it is not the conductor’s duty to sell tickets but solely to
operate the doors and ensure passengers alight the train safely.
If you are boarding at an unmanned station or there are excessive ques. There are many ways to purchase tickets before
boarding, M- tickets and E tickets are now available, therefore we expect passengers to utilise all options.

Interesting changes... I was not previously aware of them removing the ticket selling duty from conductors.

Their second sentence does not make much sense to me personally.

Isn't that (highlighted in bold above) the guarantee the RMT are looking for?

 

[Bantamzen]

I have recieved word from Northern's Customer Experience Centre on the subject of this.

Interesting changes... I was not previously aware of them removing the ticket selling duty from conductors.

Their second sentence does not make much sense to me personally.

Northern guards would be better placed to answer that, but I suspect this is a poorly worded response meaning to say it is not the guard's primary duty to sell tickets. They certainly still do in the current PF zones where passengers haven't been able to procure a ticket prior to boarding, and Arriva invested in the newer ticket machines / card readers so it would seem odd for the response to imply that this is no longer the case.

 

[Clip]

Given that I know from experience that Northern have treated people who have done nothing wrong with contempt before, I see them adding large numbers of unstaffed stations and airports to a scheme as unacceptable.

Why is it unacceptable? Theres probably hundreds of stations that are unstaffed for either all or part fo the day in the South East that operate a penalty fare scheme so why should the north be any different or 'unacceptable'?

 

[Bungle965]

Northern guards would be better placed to answer that, but I suspect this is a poorly worded response meaning to say it is not the guard's primary duty to sell tickets. They certainly still do in the current PF zones where passengers haven't been able to procure a ticket prior to boarding, and Arriva invested in the newer ticket machines / card readers so it would seem odd for the response to imply that this is no longer the case.

Arriva invested in the STAR Mobile with receipt type tickets for all of their franchises (whether suitable or not) I don't believe they really had a choice to keep the Avantix's in service also I imagine the economies of sale involved would have lessened the impact of. Every single other TOC I am aware of has withdrawn it and either replaced it with STAR or Envoy.
Sam

 

[WelshBluebird]

There are many ways to purchase tickets before
boarding, M- tickets and E tickets are now available, therefore we expect passengers to utilise all options.

Can we assume this bit, where they suggest that passengers should use M-tickets if available if boarding from a station without any ticketing facilities, is simply not at all enforceable?