I’m not going to say I know the inside outs of platforming at Leeds, but there may not be a suitable platform at the time for both services, other than 17.
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Northern cancellations getting worse
- Thread starter pemma
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I’m not going to say I know the inside outs of platforming at Leeds, but there may not be a suitable platform at the time for both services, other than 17.
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It's not a matter of operating convenience. It's a matter of there not being any alternative platforms being available for longer trains to run. Platform 17 needs to be extended to allow these services to be lengthened.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Yeah, the cancellation of the hourly Gainsborough service is a sneaky reduction by the Operator of Last Resort (on top of the other ones that have affected South Yorkshire like Doncaster to Scunthorpe/ Sheffield to Cleethorpes/ over half the Sheffield to Doncaster stoppers etc)
Sheffield to Lincoln is an annoying duration, it’s over 1h20 so would be tough to run an hourly service with just three trains, which partly explains why it’s generally been tagged into other services (including the good old Serco “Scunthorpe - Sheffield - Lincoln - Sheffield - Adwick - Sheffield - Scunthorpe diagrams!). You could speed it up by omitting local stops west of Worksop but that’d mean reintroducing the Gainsborough stopper (see above)
Platform seventeen at Leeds is a frustrating one, there’s three pairs of double track lines through the station and TPE generally have the southern pair themselves so that means that Woodlesford services are either restricted to platform seventeen or have to clash with other routes on the flat crossings to access other platforms
I’ve suggested before that the “solution” would be a half hourly Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds semi-fast (one stopping at Darton, the other at Normanton) which worked onto a half hourly Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley service…
The idea being that you could run these as the/four coach trains since the four paths at Leeds could be spaced apart (e.g. an eight minute turnaround for the Sheffield - Leeds - Knottingley diagram then a seven minute gap then a Knottingley - Leeds - Sheffield diagram has eight minutes to reverse there then a gap then…)
(The Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds stopper would be replaced by a Sheffield - Barnsley stopper, Darton and Normanton calls picked up by the “semi fast”, the Wakefield to Castleford link provided by the Huddersfield service, the Castleford - Leeds service provided by the improved Knottingley frequency)
However this would rely on some things that I’d previously taken for granted, like Northern to run the services that Arriva signed up to, including the “fast” Sheffield to Leeds service that’s so necessary to relieve the pressure on the XC service and maintaining links like Huddersfield to Castleford
But unless something radical happens, we look destined to struggle on with the half hourly Castleford stoppers and the half hourly Sheffield “semi fast” trains sharing a single four coach platform at Leeds whilst other corridors have much more capacity at the same station - which means no scope to improve the majority of Sheffield to Barnsley trains because the “tail” is wagging the “dog”… what’s the alternative though? It’ll be a struggle just to get the Operator of Last Resort back to the “Old” timetable without being greedy and expecting them to actually improve things!
(Maybe our only hope is something unrealistic like the Nottingham - S&C - Glasgow express which would at least mean some extra capacity at Barnsley!)
Sheffield to Lincoln is an annoying duration, it’s over 1h20 so would be tough to run an hourly service with just three trains, which partly explains why it’s generally been tagged into other services (including the good old Serco “Scunthorpe - Sheffield - Lincoln - Sheffield - Adwick - Sheffield - Scunthorpe diagrams!). You could speed it up by omitting local stops west of Worksop but that’d mean reintroducing the Gainsborough stopper (see above)
Platform seventeen at Leeds is a frustrating one, there’s three pairs of double track lines through the station and TPE generally have the southern pair themselves so that means that Woodlesford services are either restricted to platform seventeen or have to clash with other routes on the flat crossings to access other platforms
I’ve suggested before that the “solution” would be a half hourly Sheffield - Barnsley - Leeds semi-fast (one stopping at Darton, the other at Normanton) which worked onto a half hourly Leeds - Castleford - Knottingley service…
The idea being that you could run these as the/four coach trains since the four paths at Leeds could be spaced apart (e.g. an eight minute turnaround for the Sheffield - Leeds - Knottingley diagram then a seven minute gap then a Knottingley - Leeds - Sheffield diagram has eight minutes to reverse there then a gap then…)
(The Sheffield - Castleford - Leeds stopper would be replaced by a Sheffield - Barnsley stopper, Darton and Normanton calls picked up by the “semi fast”, the Wakefield to Castleford link provided by the Huddersfield service, the Castleford - Leeds service provided by the improved Knottingley frequency)
However this would rely on some things that I’d previously taken for granted, like Northern to run the services that Arriva signed up to, including the “fast” Sheffield to Leeds service that’s so necessary to relieve the pressure on the XC service and maintaining links like Huddersfield to Castleford
But unless something radical happens, we look destined to struggle on with the half hourly Castleford stoppers and the half hourly Sheffield “semi fast” trains sharing a single four coach platform at Leeds whilst other corridors have much more capacity at the same station - which means no scope to improve the majority of Sheffield to Barnsley trains because the “tail” is wagging the “dog”… what’s the alternative though? It’ll be a struggle just to get the Operator of Last Resort back to the “Old” timetable without being greedy and expecting them to actually improve things!
(Maybe our only hope is something unrealistic like the Nottingham - S&C - Glasgow express which would at least mean some extra capacity at Barnsley!)
A basic problem with Leeds station is that there are six lines converging at the west end and only one at the east. So bay platforms at the west end are oversubscribed while those at the east are underused (I can't find anything going from 14). The current arrangement seems to mean that the Lincoln and Nottingham trains can only be 2 cars as they have to share platform 17 with the Castleford line stopper. A solution might be to extend them beyond Leeds to the new station at Thorpe Park, if it goes ahead, but that assumes the through platforms at Leeds and the double track through Cross Gates have enough capacity. (I no longer live in the area but used to travel around a lot as a Northern station adopter.)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I doubt it was that. In most of Europe guards work entirely from the passenger cabin, not hiding in cabs, just as they should here. I wonder if this is why some don't like them?
It is nonsensical that they aren't driver release though. Guard release causes all sorts of delays and driver release isn't anywhere near as controversial as DOO because a guard is still needed.
YorksLad12
Established Member
And it will be. Apparently. As will P13. I think we all wish they'd get a wiggle on though!
Of course, it all worked swimmingly 20 years ago. Then we got the semi-fasts, more TPE services, 2tph to London...
While I agree with you (and agreed with you, as I recall), I think we're in a state now of needing to get confidence back first, and running the service we're supoosed to have. The 2016 franchise promises are dead and buried.
Platforms 7 and 14 do get used, at different times of the day (of course, the timetable has just changed so all bets are off). The problem with running through to Thorpe Park / East Leeds Parkway was always the two-track stretch east of Leeds, as well as finding through paths and platforms at Leeds. Otherwise, it could have been done by now by extending the stopping pair or semi-fast pair through to York or Selby/Hull.
None of which would ease the overall issue (and topic) of Northern's cancellations getting worse. It'll be interesting to see how the service copes after the next set of strikes end in mid-January and a decent run-out for the new timetable.
Well Northern got off to a good start with the new timetable today. The train I was planning on getting into Liverpool Lime Street (1449 from West Allerton) was cancelled. Good job I could get a bus instead.
I was planning on getting the 1925 home from Lime Street, but that has also been cancelled.
No reasons as to why either trains have been cancelled on National Rail Live Departures.
I've also noticed that the 1929 Lime Street to Wilmslow has also been cancelled, and a reason has been given for the that - the good old short train crew syndrome!
P.S. getting a Northern train into Liverpool Lime Street last week I was sat at the rear of a 3 carriage 195 and there were two off duty Northern guards having a right old moan and whinge with the guard of the train.
They were moaning "oh, I don't like that route, there's too many stops", "I hate doing ticket checks", "X got reported for not doing enough ticket checks", "I can't be ar*ed with some of these passengers" etc etc etc.
Get a new bloody job then!
I was planning on getting the 1925 home from Lime Street, but that has also been cancelled.
No reasons as to why either trains have been cancelled on National Rail Live Departures.
I've also noticed that the 1929 Lime Street to Wilmslow has also been cancelled, and a reason has been given for the that - the good old short train crew syndrome!
P.S. getting a Northern train into Liverpool Lime Street last week I was sat at the rear of a 3 carriage 195 and there were two off duty Northern guards having a right old moan and whinge with the guard of the train.
They were moaning "oh, I don't like that route, there's too many stops", "I hate doing ticket checks", "X got reported for not doing enough ticket checks", "I can't be ar*ed with some of these passengers" etc etc etc.
Get a new bloody job then!
The 1449 from West Allerton and 1925 from Lime St don't appear at all on RTT and therefore may have been cancelled last night?
Good luck with getting back!
The 2225 from Lime Street was also cancelled yesterday meaning that the last train of the day from Liverpool to Warrington Central was at 1825. That really is pathetic.
Must have been engineering work which meant they were terminating at Warrington and not going to Man Oxford Rd.
Todays 1822 has been cancelled, and the 2156 is already showing as being 11 minutes due to short drivers!
Must have been engineering work which meant they were terminating at Warrington and not going to Man Oxford Rd.
Todays 1822 has been cancelled, and the 2156 is already showing as being 11 minutes due to short drivers!
CaptainHaddock
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Well they ought to hire some taller ones!
Broken70
Member
Mass cancellations on the Sheffield side due to staff shortages this morning and one would assume this will continue all day. Barnsley line had a very bad morning particularly.
td97
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PPM so far today (ranked out of 22 TOCs):
21st: Avanti 9% on time, 60% v.late/cancel
20th: LNER 20% on time, 38% v.late/cancel
14th: TPE 46% on time, 31% v.late/cancel
8th: Northern 65% on time, 9% v.late/cancel
Not a perfect start for Northern but a lot, lot better than the alternatives.
91% of services arriving within 30 minutes is a good effort.
21st: Avanti 9% on time, 60% v.late/cancel
20th: LNER 20% on time, 38% v.late/cancel
14th: TPE 46% on time, 31% v.late/cancel
8th: Northern 65% on time, 9% v.late/cancel
Not a perfect start for Northern but a lot, lot better than the alternatives.
91% of services arriving within 30 minutes is a good effort.
YorksLad12
Established Member
Northern seemed to have a poor time of it in the north-west, but better in Yorkshire. There was a signalling failure at Leeds this morning affecting platforms 0-4, so Harrogate services were disrupted, and the reinstated Huddersfield-Castleford journeys (2 am, 2 pm) only ran the 2 am journeys.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I'd be surprised if that helped Barnsley. If the service was extended towards the S&C it would probably have to run via Swinton and Wakefield Westgate instead. Getting over from the Woodlesford lines to the Skipton lines (reversing at one of the middle platforms) would be a nightmare to path. Either that or rebuild a platform on the Whitehall curve, I suppose!
Andy Pacer
Established Member
Both cancelled on RTT
Realtime Trains | 2O76 1346 Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street | 11/12/2022
Real-time train running information for 2O76 1346 departure from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street on 11/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
Realtime Trains | 2O90 1925 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road | 11/12/2022
Real-time train running information for 2O90 1925 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road on 11/12/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.
www.realtimetrains.co.uk
I've used that service three times from Skipton to Sheffield and ironically (as I later found out) it ran out of Leeds to Wakefield Westgate and then down to Kirkgate. I thought this was the usual route, but I later found out that wasn't. However, it happened on all three occasions over the space of two years when I used it. So there are possibilities.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
We're in danger of straying off-topic, but whilst diverting that way every now and then is fine, running that way every hour probably isn't. The old "Northern Connect" plans did have the service switching to the Westgate lines (in conjunction with extending to Bradford Interchange), but those plans are as dead as a dodo now.
It's a disaster on the CLC today. Looks like there's only one Northern train every two hours between Liverpool and Manchester Oxford Rd.
And there were no Northern trains at all yesterday on the CLC. Usually they start running later in morning the day after a strike, but it looks like they just couldn't be bothered all day!
Bit of shambles as there's been no proper service from Northern on the CLC since last Monday.
And there were no Northern trains at all yesterday on the CLC. Usually they start running later in morning the day after a strike, but it looks like they just couldn't be bothered all day!
Bit of shambles as there's been no proper service from Northern on the CLC since last Monday.
jonnyfan
Member
Yesterday would be because there were very very few conductors working, due to the RMT overtime ban (certainly at Piccadilly only 1/6th of the required number of conductors were in). Likewise today the overtime ban will be hitting services, and will continue to through until January.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
its pretty desperate how much the railway has become dependent on such high levels of ot and the staff need to be careful that an outright ban on overtime by HMT isn't imposed on them as an easy way of saving money.
Been unusable since the timetable change. Why have more trains on the CLC line now start/terminate at Warrington Central rather than Oxford Road? These are always the ones to get cancelled. The five to the hour ones from Lime Street had always been to Oxford Road.
Completely given up on it and have to use the bus.
Completely given up on it and have to use the bus.
175001
Established Member
This is all due to the boffins of the Manchester Recovery Taskforce who decided splitting it at Warrington was the best thing for performance...
Confused52
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Those boffins that thought it better to run a TPE service from Cleethorpes to Liverpool than a Northern one from the Airport. Even though the services via the Hope valley have caused large variability on the CLC for years. Today of the 14 TPE services we had 3 cancelled beforehand with P codes, 5 cancelled on the day, 2 half an hour late, one 10 minutes late and two vaguely on time and one yet to leave Cleethorpes but RTT show it in the detailed view as cancelled too. DfT were intending to stop the EMR service going all the way to Norwich because it was unreliable and what we have is no change for the Norwich other than the last service removed and starting short at Piccadilly, as well as the second semi-fast made to travel further also across the ECML dodging the Freight on the Hope Valley. It is an absolute disgrace.
Only if by 'best thing for performance' means they don't run at all.
Should also be noted that most management and office staff will not cover for guards not working and staff shortages as they have in the past due to TSSA action short of a strike.
Killingworth
Established Member
Those of us who live by the Hope Valley line and rely on it to get to and from Manchester, Sheffield, the stations in between and to stations further away warned that extending the Cleethorpes services to Liverpool would be problematic. That was before the current industrial relations issues. The westbound Northern Hope Valley stopping services are frequently delayed by late TPE trains from Cleethorpes (not so much at present because almost half of them don't run) and quite often eastbound by late EMR services from Liverpool. By the end of 2023 the freight delays should be eased once the 2 new loops currently under construction are commissioned. Delays on TPE and EMR are more difficult to resolve.
That would cause network wide contagion of the issues limited to certain TOCs during OT bans. It would make the railway effectively unusable, including the bits that are currently working fine. For that reason it‘s about as likely as the entire railway being closed down to save money (albeit that’s something I’m sure many on here would actively relish!)
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