Northern City Line (NCL) general questions

[hornbyfan99]

I'm quite curious about the NCL especially the tunnels being unique.

I was wondering other than class 313s using the NCL, has any other BR stock gone into the tunnels?

This MUST NOT be confused with the Widened Lines or LUL stock.

Also somebody told me that when the ECML was already equipped for DOO working, only the Moorgate section required a guard. When did this end? I mean what year was it when DOO service commenced fully into Moorgate and was it during the BR or WAGN era?

From looking at Flickr, I saw that towards the end of LUL working on the NCL, there was only a shuttle service between Drayton Park and Old Street. Was this because of the crash or because of station works? I also noticed that when BR took over the line, they initially just did a Moorgate and Drayton Park shuttle and I thought they would continue on the ECML.

Another curious thing about the line is that musty odor smell that is noticeable on the platform and I have always been wondering why it occurs and where the source of it is?

The final question I have is about the NSE memorabilia on the stations!

In my opinion, I think the NCL stations are the best examples of NSE pride of keeping stations bright and cheerful! They have been there for approx 30+ years and sill intact! I just wonder when they will go?

A good opportunity to get my hands on them at junk sales!

Now that's it. I have just got this off my chest and I hope someone who can help me answer these questions!

Thank you.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm not certain, but I have a feeling that 73s have gone down on engineering work. The tunnels aren't that tight, similar in loading gauge to the Liverpool loop.

Please note: some or all of the above may or may not be accurate.

 

[Springs Branch]

The Northern City Line certainly has an interesting history with much chopping and changing over the years.

Wikipedia has a lot of the story in its Northern City Line and Drayton Park station articles, but I don't think these necessarily cover every last detail.

Regarding DOO and the need for a guard to work into Moorgate - could this have been because even after the line's takeover by BR, the Moorgate tube section was operated under "deep tube" working arrangements?

When DOO was first introduced on the London Underground, I recall DOO could only be implemented on the sub-surface lines (H&C, Circle etc.) It was a few years more before guards were progressively eliminated from the Tube lines (I'm not sure how much of this delay was due to incompatibility of the tube rolling stock, regulations around safe working and/or union objections).
Was it the same situation on the GN Electrics? I don't know the year though.


Regarding the BR services initially truncated at Drayton Park - I seem to recall there was a delay of a few months between the Class 313s being available and the completion of the new link between Drayton Park and Finsbury Park. Without this underpass, Down trains from Moorgate would not be able to effectively access the ECML slow line at Finsbury Park. I think this connection was complete by the time full GN Inner Suburban electric services were launched in November 1976, and after that almost all electric trains ran to/from Moorgate, until electrification to Royston and the introduction of Class 312s.

 

[Dstock7080]

When DOO was first introduced on the London Underground, I recall DOO could only be implemented on the sub-surface lines (H&C, Circle etc.) It was a few years more before guards were progressively eliminated from the Tube lines (I'm not sure how much of this delay was due to incompatibility of the tube rolling stock, regulations around safe working and/or union objections).

There wasn't much of a delay in the Underground adopting OPO on the Tube lines.
The H&C/Circle changed in 1984, District November 1985, Metropolitan 1986, then the Piccadilly in August 1987.

 

[transmanche]

IFrom looking at Flickr, I saw that towards the end of LUL working on the NCL, there was only a shuttle service between Drayton Park and Old Street. Was this because of the crash or because of station works?

The shuttle working began in 1964. This was because the NCL platforms at Finsbury Park were needed for the Victoria line. Southbound Piccadilly and Victoria line trains use the former NCL platforms at Finsbury Park, whilst northbound services use the former Piccadilly line platforms, thus allowing for cross-platform interchange.

 

[jopsuk]

As far as anyone knows the new class 717 stock will have exactly the same carriage dimensions as the other Desiro City stock (Class 700/707)

 

[A0]

I'm quite curious about the NCL especially the tunnels being unique.

I was wondering other than class 313s using the NCL, has any other BR stock gone into the tunnels?

This MUST NOT be confused with the Widened Lines or LUL stock.

Also somebody told me that when the ECML was already equipped for DOO working, only the Moorgate section required a guard. When did this end? I mean what year was it when DOO service commenced fully into Moorgate and was it during the BR or WAGN era?

From looking at Flickr, I saw that towards the end of LUL working on the NCL, there was only a shuttle service between Drayton Park and Old Street. Was this because of the crash or because of station works? I also noticed that when BR took over the line, they initially just did a Moorgate and Drayton Park shuttle and I thought they would continue on the ECML.

Another curious thing about the line is that musty odor smell that is noticeable on the platform and I have always been wondering why it occurs and where the source of it is?

The final question I have is about the NSE memorabilia on the stations!

In my opinion, I think the NCL stations are the best examples of NSE pride of keeping stations bright and cheerful! They have been there for approx 30+ years and sill intact! I just wonder when they will go?

A good opportunity to get my hands on them at junk sales!

Now that's it. I have just got this off my chest and I hope someone who can help me answer these questions!

Thank you.

In terms of the stock question, when BR took over the line they sent some converted class 501 units down there on engineering work - the book Kings Cross Lineside 1959-198 (3)? has pics.

I believe the truncation to Old St at the end of LT and beginning of BR was due to work on escalators at Moorgate but happy to be corrected.

OMO on the GN was about 1985/6 when the new Class 317/1s arrived to displace the 312s. Sadly the GN route has never managed to keep those (nicer) later 317s and ended up with the ex BedPan 317s which were always less pleasant.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The shuttle working began in 1964. This was because the NCL platforms at Finsbury Park were needed for the Victoria line. Southbound Piccadilly and Victoria line trains use the former NCL platforms at Finsbury Park, whilst northbound services use the former Piccadilly line platforms, thus allowing for cross-platform interchange.

That was the truncation at the north end - I thought the OP was asking about the truncation at the south end -Old St - which happened towards the end of LT / start of BR.

 

[swt_passenger]

In my opinion, I think the NCL stations are the best examples of NSE pride of keeping stations bright and cheerful! They have been there for approx 30+ years and sill intact! I just wonder when they will go?
.

Nothing much to do with pride, it is just considered too expensive to change all the stuff such as tiling that is built into the structure.

 

[cjmillsnun]

There wasn't much of a delay in the Underground adopting OPO on the Tube lines.
The H&C/Circle changed in 1984, District November 1985, Metropolitan 1986, then the Piccadilly in August 1987.

And the Northern in 1999

 

[DY444]

I'm not certain, but I have a feeling that 73s have gone down on engineering work. The tunnels aren't that tight, similar in loading gauge to the Liverpool loop.

Please note: some or all of the above may or may not be accurate.

73s have indeed been down there

 

[transmanche]

OMO on the GN was about 1985/6 when the new Class 317/1s arrived to displace the 312s.

I can't remember exactly when DOO arrived on the NCL, but I commuted on that line from 1985 until about 1991 and I well remember the regular cancellations/diversions into King's Cross when there was no guard available at Finsbury Park to take the train into Moorgate. (Plus those diversions caused by tripcock detection failure at Finsbury Park... not good days for the NCL.)

That was the truncation at the north end - I thought the OP was asking about the truncation at the south end -Old St - which happened towards the end of LT / start of BR.

My mistake. I saw the words 'shuttle' and 'Drayton Park' and got the wrong end of the stick.

 

[Carlisle]

I can't remember exactly when DOO arrived on the NCL, but I commuted on that line from 1985 until about 1991 and I well remember the regular cancellations/diversions into King's Cross when there was no guard available at Finsbury Park to take the train into Moorgate. (Plus those diversions caused by tripcock detection failure at Finsbury Park... not good days for the NCL.)
.

I believe DOO came in on the NCL around 1995

 

[FOH]

I may be imagining it but I thought I'd read recently somewhere that a sole 378 had been down the tunnels.

 

[SPADTrap]

Riddled with asbestos that hole!

 

[jopsuk]

I may be imagining it but I thought I'd read recently somewhere that a sole 378 had been down the tunnels.

This seems to be an urban legend that has no actual evidence behind it nor will it die

 

[Class377/5]

As far as anyone knows the new class 717 stock will have exactly the same carriage dimensions as the other Desiro City stock (Class 700/707)

Yes.

I may be imagining it but I thought I'd read recently somewhere that a sole 378 had been down the tunnels.

Urban myth believed to have been caused by a 378 leaving Hornsey for the NLL turning at a simliar point as the NCL.

 

[toadoverload]

Does anyone know how maintenance is carried out on the NCL tunnels?

If so what stock is used on engineering trains?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I believe the truncation to Old St at the end of LT and beginning of BR was due to work on escalators at Moorgate but happy to be corrected.

Did LT trains ever run into Moorgate again after the Moorgate accident in 1975?

 

[edwin_m]

Did LT trains ever run into Moorgate again after the Moorgate accident in 1975?

From the accident report http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=98

Services on the Highbury branch were suspended for the rest of the day [28 February] and from Saturday, 1st March until Sunday, 9th March, the passenger service ran only between Drayton Park and Old Street, where passengers were detrained before trains continued empty to reverse in Platform No. 10 at Moorgate. Clearance of the wreckage was not completed until 07.00 on Thursday 6th March, and, after the whole area affected by the accident had been thoroughly cleaned, normal services were resumed from Monday, 10 March 1975.

 

[whoosh]

Nothing much to do with pride, it is just considered too expensive to change all the stuff such as tiling that is built into the structure.

Indeed. If there was any pride, they'd actually clean the tunnels down there. They are about twenty times as filthy as the worst London Underground stations.