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Northern Complimentary Ticket Dispute

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matthewluck

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I've grown tired of contacting customer service departments where little or no follow-up action is taken. I've sent an email to the MD, Nick Donovan and would be keen to hear what you all think of this situation:

Dear Nick,

On the XX:XX from Lancaster to Carlisle today 14/04/2022, I used a complimentary ticket that I was sent following a delay and this was gratefully received.

XXXX, the Conductor who joined the train at Barrow checked my ticket and said that I needed to write on a return date.

I explained that I genuinely don't know when I will be returning and will write the date on when I use it.

She was quite unpleasant in her tone. I pointed out that it says nothing about writing on the return date. She said that if I didn't fill it out, the ticket could be used over and over again. This has never been my intention.

I explained that once I have written a date on the ticket in ink, the ticket will only be used on that day. I'm not sure why she could not understand this.

She has written 'Customer refused to fill in return date on my ticket.' This is not the case, I genuinely do not know when I will be making the return journey. I will use it the next time I need to travel from Workington to Lancaster.

She returned showing me ticket terms and conditions on her phone on the National Rail website. These stated nothing about complimentary tickets or Northern tickets and writing on the return date.

It seems she is looking for a problem when one does not exist. I have explained that I will write on the date once I know when I will be making the return journey.

Nowhere on the terms and conditions on the reverse of the ticket does it state that I need to write the return date on the ticket. I am only required to write the date of my journey and that is what I have done.

I have attached photos of the ticket.

Please could you let me know your thoughts on this?

Regards,
 
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robbeech

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I’m not aware of the rules stating you must have filled in the return date prior to starting your outward journey but this has cropped up before. Any reasonable operator would at the very least make it clear what the rules are and preferably just allow you to choose your return date when you return. Sadly Northern are not a reasonable operator so you are limited to members of staff simply making it up as they go along. This is the railway of today.
 

gray1404

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Was the Conductor called ****? If so I had a very similar issue on the same route using a complimentary ticket. @matthewluck

Edit: have taken the name out but sent the OP a DM asking.
 

matthewluck

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Was the Conductor called ****? If so I had a very similar issue on the same route using a complimentary ticket. @matthewluck
No, it wasn't. I've redacted their name and the time of departure as I'm not sure about putting that on a public forum
I’m not aware of the rules stating you must have filled in the return date prior to starting your outward journey but this has cropped up before. Any reasonable operator would at the very least make it clear what the rules are and preferably just allow you to choose your return date when you return. Sadly Northern are not a reasonable operator so you are limited to members of staff simply making it up as they go along. This is the railway of today.
I agree Rob. Most of the time I have no problems at all. But some common sense and clarity would be appreciated from Northern.
 
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gray1404

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I wonder if there is a training issue at that particular Northern Depot surrounding the use of complimentary tickets.
 

WesternLancer

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I've grown tired of contacting customer service departments where little or no follow-up action is taken. I've sent an email to the MD, Nick Donovan and would be keen to hear what you all think of this situation:

Dear Nick,

On the XX:XX from Lancaster to Carlisle today 14/04/2022, I used a complimentary ticket that I was sent following a delay and this was gratefully received.

XXXX, the Conductor who joined the train at Barrow checked my ticket and said that I needed to write on a return date.

I explained that I genuinely don't know when I will be returning and will write the date on when I use it.

She was quite unpleasant in her tone. I pointed out that it says nothing about writing on the return date. She said that if I didn't fill it out, the ticket could be used over and over again. This has never been my intention.

I explained that once I have written a date on the ticket in ink, the ticket will only be used on that day. I'm not sure why she could not understand this.

She has written 'Customer refused to fill in return date on my ticket.' This is not the case, I genuinely do not know when I will be making the return journey. I will use it the next time I need to travel from Workington to Lancaster.

She returned showing me ticket terms and conditions on her phone on the National Rail website. These stated nothing about complimentary tickets or Northern tickets and writing on the return date.

It seems she is looking for a problem when one does not exist. I have explained that I will write on the date once I know when I will be making the return journey.

Nowhere on the terms and conditions on the reverse of the ticket does it state that I need to write the return date on the ticket. I am only required to write the date of my journey and that is what I have done.

I have attached photos of the ticket.

Please could you let me know your thoughts on this?

Regards,
You've sent it now so this is a bit passed the point - but I would always end such messages with a clear 'ask'. You have asked the MD for this thoughts, but to be frank his thoughts are not of great relevance - what you need is a clear statement of their policy on the matter - or ask a clear question as to whether it is or is not required to write the return date when using the outbound portion (for example), or to ask 'is this member of staff correct to insist on this' or something like that.

However, you've sent it now so it will be interesting to see what reply you get - well done for raising it.
 

matthewluck

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You've sent it now so this is a bit passed the point - but I would always end such messages with a clear 'ask'. You have asked the MD for this thoughts, but to be frank his thoughts are not of great relevance - what you need is a clear statement of their policy on the matter - or ask a clear question as to whether it is or is not required to write the return date when using the outbound portion (for example), or to ask 'is this member of staff correct to insist on this' or something like that.

However, you've sent it now so it will be interesting to see what reply you get - well done for raising it.
Yes, fair enough. I would usually include what I expect from them as a resolution. But this time, I'm leaving it open to how they wish to deal with it. If I'm not satisfied with their response I will of course respond.

As a minimum, I would expect them to outline their policy and who they have raised it with locally.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Nowhere on the terms and conditions on the reverse of the ticket does it state that I need to write the return date on the ticket. I am only required to write the date of my journey and that is what I have done.

Back of these Northern complimentary tickets states (inter alia)...

5. It is the holder's responsibility to ensure the date of travel, name of the customer travelling, type of journey and stations are completed using an ink pen before travelling.

6. If this pass is used on a different date to that printed overleaf (or if it is used without a date being printed) the holder will be required to pay the full fare for the journey.

Does seem to be a moot point as to whether (for a return ticket) the return date has to be completed already before using the ticket for the outward journey.
 

matthewluck

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Back of these Northern complimentary tickets states (inter alia)...





Does seem to be a moot point as to whether (for a return ticket) the return date has to be completed already before using the ticket for the outward journey.
Correct. That's exactly what it says.

Note it states 'date of travel' and the date of travel was completed.

It doesn't mention 'dates' or to state the anticipated/potential/intended return date of travel. If I guessed the date or filled it out when unsure, the ticket would then be worthless if not used.

So it is very unfair to expect all passengers to commit to a return date before they have even left home. The pandemic has taught me that unpredictable things can happen and plans (not that I have any) can change at the last minute.
 

yorkie

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Does seem to be a moot point as to whether (for a return ticket) the return date has to be completed already before using the ticket for the outward journey.
Provided the details are entered for the return journey before the return journey commences, that would be compliant with the instruction.

Talking of instructions, Northern theoretically require their Conductors to "excel at delivering customer service" and be "highly motivated, positive and enthusiastic" however this is not consistently the case and, while the majority of Guards are laid back and would not act in the manner described in this thread, there is a definite minority who do act inappropriately and not in accordance with Northern's requirements and very little is ever done about it.

Northern customer services are also very inconsistent in their approach so I really have no idea how this will go, but it will be interesting to find out.

This issue has cropped up before; here is a previous thread :


@Adlenviro did your case get resolved?
 

Mcr Warrior

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Doesn't the 'contra proferentem' legal doctrine in contract law apply here?

This essentially states that any clause considered to be ambiguous should be interpreted against the interests of the party that created, introduced, or requested that such a clause be included.
 

WesternLancer

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Yes, fair enough. I would usually include what I expect from them as a resolution. But this time, I'm leaving it open to how they wish to deal with it. If I'm not satisfied with their response I will of course respond.

As a minimum, I would expect them to outline their policy and who they have raised it with locally.
Thanks for your explanation - obv you thought about it before wording that so fair enough in terms of how you have posed the point. As said, will be interesting to see what happens.
 

gray1404

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I had an issue using a complimentary tickets from Liverpool to Newcastle when using the return portion on the basis I was not travelling between Liverpool and Newcastle, but rather Newcastle to Liverpool, and it was on the same route that the original poster here had a problem.

The conductor said I could not use the complementary ticket because it was not written as a Newcastle to Liverpool and when I pointed out I was using the return portion she then insisted that the date was wrong. Even though I had written the outward and return dates and was travelling on the return date stated.

After that she told me that I should not have been travelling via the Cumbrian Coast but should have gone direct between Newcastle and Liverpool. I diffused the situation by using my communication skills I have acquired in running an international business which in essence was distraction and good humour rather than any railway logical rules.

However it does concern me that the original poster here has had a not-too-distant problem on the same stretch of track and I think there is an issue with conductors working out of the Workington depot in terms of the acceptance of complementary tickets.

I had my complimentary tickets ripped as part of my ticket inspection which I thought was most strange and the poster here had something written on it.
 

Wolfie

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I had an issue using a complimentary tickets from Liverpool to Newcastle when using the return portion on the basis I was not travelling between Liverpool and Newcastle, but rather Newcastle to Liverpool, and it was on the same route that the original poster here had a problem.

The conductor said I could not use the complementary ticket because it was not written as a Newcastle to Liverpool and when I pointed out I was using the return portion she then insisted that the date was wrong. Even though I had written the outward and return dates and was travelling on the return date stated.

After that she told me that I should not have been travelling via the Cumbrian Coast but should have gone direct between Newcastle and Liverpool. I diffused the situation by using my communication skills I have acquired in running an international business which in essence was distraction and good humour rather than any railway logical rules.

However it does concern me that the original poster here has had a not-too-distant problem on the same stretch of track and I think there is an issue with conductors working out of the Workington depot in terms of the acceptance of complementary tickets.

I had my complimentary tickets ripped as part of my ticket inspection which I thought was most strange and the poster here had something written on it.
Given that the complimentary tickets are generally given because the company has already cocked up it makes having ridiculous problems with obstinate opinionated guards all the more unacceptable.
 

Vespa

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Since complaining to customer service have achieved little, would filming the encounter and using the same evidence forwarded to customer service be more effective ?

If they fail to resolve it, using social meda would embarrass and bounce the company into taking action.

In my experience customer service only serves to bury and hide complaint while offering meaningless platitudes hoping you will go away and be somebody else's problem.
 

stew

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Interestingly I had a similar incident where the conductor insisted I write the return date otherwise the ticket would be invalid. I could not confirm the date as I was being admitted to hospital. Eventually the conductor moved on.

It did lead me to email Northern Customer Services to clarify the situation. They responded to say that the “return date does not need to be filled in when using for an outward journey”. I have a screenshot of this email for production if I am challenged again. To be honest, I imagine they would say that their own customer service team are incorrect (which they could be) and accuse me of travelling with an invalid ticket.

Would the Northern CS email stand up in terms of “instructed to do so by a railway employee”?
 

Watershed

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Doesn't the 'contra proferentem' legal doctrine in contract law apply here?

This essentially states that any clause considered to be ambiguous should be interpreted against the interests of the party that created, introduced, or requested that such a clause be included.
Yes, in theory it does. However I fail to see that there is any ambiguity here. The terms require that the date of travel is entered; there are two separate boxes on return tickets and there is nothing stating that the return date must be entered before making the outward journey. The conductor simply made this up.

Indeed, when assessing contested terms, a court will usually look at the intent or purpose of a term as a guide - and here there would be no commercial purpose to requiring people to enter a return date when making the outward journey. If Northern wanted to limit the validity to a month, for example, they would be perfectly capable of doing so, but they have chosen not to do that.

How can that apply before the matter comes to court?
You could say that about virtually any legal principle. Ultimately when there is a civil dispute, there is nothing forcing either side to pay/give way until the matter goes to court.

But it is established practice, and indeed mandated by the Civil Procedure Rules and the Practice Direction, that parties avoid court wherever possible. And so in the course of out of court discussions/negotiations, it would be perfectly normal to cite and rely on a given legal principle.

Since complaining to customer service have achieved little, would filming the encounter and using the same evidence forwarded to customer service be more effective ?

If they fail to resolve it, using social meda would embarrass and bounce the company into taking action.

In my experience customer service only serves to bury and hide complaint while offering meaningless platitudes hoping you will go away and be somebody else's problem.
I think that would be likely to significantly escalate the situation, and it is ultimately unlikely to help resolve it. I certainly would not recommend it as a course of action. If anyone feels the need to have evidence of what was said, a covert or overt audio recording is much less likely to cause issues.

Interestingly I had a similar incident where the conductor insisted I write the return date otherwise the ticket would be invalid. I could not confirm the date as I was being admitted to hospital. Eventually the conductor moved on.

It did lead me to email Northern Customer Services to clarify the situation. They responded to say that the “return date does not need to be filled in when using for an outward journey”. I have a screenshot of this email for production if I am challenged again. To be honest, I imagine they would say that their own customer service team are incorrect (which they could be) and accuse me of travelling with an invalid ticket.

Would the Northern CS email stand up in terms of “instructed to do so by a railway employee”?
Indeed it would. Ultimately there are just some staff who cannot bear being wrong and will make up anything, and ignore any evidence to the contrary, to justify their view.
 

robbeech

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It’s often important to choose your wording carefully when asking a customer service representative or writing to senior staff. Given how many staff are poorly trained (through no fault of their own) but, as has been confirmed, sometimes given training in ‘making it up in favour of the operator’ then it’s important to minimise the chances of rejection by using the right words and the right questions.

For example (this is a made up scenario) if a guard says you cannot go via Harrogate on a Sheffield to York ticket and you get to Leeds and ask a different member of staff, you wording could make the difference in what answer you get.

“Hi, I can go via Harrogate with this ticket can’t I?” Will be met with a “yes” (which is correct)

“Hi, your colleague says I can’t go via Harrogate with this ticket, is that the case?” Is more likely to be met with a “no you can’t go that way” as you’ve put the idea into their head that it could be invalid due to one of their colleagues being un knowledgable.


So all in all there’s a definite argument to say that the initial message shouldn’t have included the backstory and real world scenario at all. I certainly wouldn’t have included the story, rather I would have asked for advice on their policy, got the answer (in the unlikely event you get a reply at all) and then replied entering your details of your encounter.
 

zero

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The simple solution would be to not issue return tickets and just give out 2 singles.

I have a return ticket where I used the outbound in 2020 but I didn't make it to the end destination that day due to disruption. I travelled back to the origin as I was entitled to during disruption, nobody challenged me and the inbound date remains unfilled.

I hope I don't get accused of "altering" the date to 2022 when I use it this year, if someone believes the inbound date must be filled in before the outbound nobody would be able to predict their future travel 2 years later particularly during 2 years of restrictions.
 

NorthWestRover

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I'm not sure I'd have the nerve to complete the return journey two years later! In fact, the compensation is a "return ticket" which to my mind should satisfy the longest period allowed for a return sold by Northern.

The free ticket thing is quite generous compared to other companies and using it for two single journeys which could (following some of the above logically) be ten years apart seems to be taking the mickey a little bit.

I agree it would be better to issue two singles to remove any ambiguity ( not that there is any really as there is no requirement to fill in the return date until you return).
 
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Starmill

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Just issuing them as unlimited travel day tickets (one for a day return, two for a period return) would avoid all this nonsense. I think SercoNed did?
They did, although they didn't have a Delay Repay scheme so significantly fewer of them would have been issued.
 

some bloke

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I didn't make it to the end destination that day due to disruption. I travelled back to the origin as I was entitled to during disruption
As people in that situation are normally due a refund, would you not have been due the equivalent: endorsement of the original ticket making it valid for outward travel another day (which might be a bit complicated to write on the ticket, so perhaps another written authorisation) or a replacement ticket?
 

Watershed

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As people in that situation are normally due a refund, would you not have been due the equivalent: endorsement of the original ticket making it valid for outward travel another day (which might be a bit complicated to write on the ticket, so perhaps another written authorisation) or a replacement ticket?
You would be able to claim another complimentary ticket if sufficiently delayed.
 

nedchester

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I’ve never filled in the return date in on one of these tickets (until date if travel of course)

In fact I used one recently where there was 15 months between outward and return journeys!

I also got another complimentary return ticket after a one hour delay using a complimentary ticket!
 

matthewluck

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Had a response from Customer Services. They say you do need to know your return date and have it written on the ticket. It's not an open ended ticket.

Thank you for contacting Northern.

I have been forwarded an email which you recently sent to our Managing Director Nick Donovan in relation to your complaint. As it is not possible for Nick to respond to all customer contacts he receives, he has asked me to investigate and respond on his behalf.

When a Complimentary Return Travel Voucher is used for travel then a Return date must be entered on the ticket. If not then it means the ticket is only valid for the Outbound section of the journey. The Complimentary Return Travel Voucher cannot be used as an open ended Return ticket.

I am sorry if this is not the response you expected and for any disappointment this may cause you.

Regarding our staff member I am sorry that you found her tone to be unpleasant. It is imperative that our staff approach customers in a reasonable, polite and professional manner and put our customers at ease if it is felt that it is appropriate to question them about their ticket or travel arrangements.

It is feedback from customers such as yourself that helps us identify where our customer service doesn’t match our customers’ expectations, and we can take the relevant steps to ensure we meet our customer’s needs. I am grateful, therefore, that you have taken the time to bring this particular matter to our attention.

Once again I am sorry if this is not the response you expected.

Should you have any further concerns please do not hesitate to contact us.
 

nedchester

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Had a response from Customer Services. They say you do need to know your return date and have it written on the ticket. It's not an open ended ticket.

If it is not stated in their T&Cs then that comment above is utter rubbish (no disrespect to yourself obviously)
 

Watershed

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Had a response from Customer Services. They say you do need to know your return date and have it written on the ticket. It's not an open ended ticket.
I think they've misunderstood what has happened - they seem to be under the impression that you tried to make the return journey without entering a date. Which, obviously, is not permitted.

I would reply to them clarifying exactly what happened and asking them to confirm that it is OK to make the outward journey on a complimentary ticket with just the outward date entered, but not the return.
 

matthewluck

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Cheers. I've sent the following reply and if I get a negative response, I will ask them to confirm the T&C's.

Thank you for your reply.

However, you seem to be under the impression that I have tried to make the return journey without entering a date.

I made the outward journey with the date entered into the outward box.

I left the return journey box blank as I do not know when I will be returning yet.

Could you confirm that it is OK to make the outward journey on a complimentary ticket with just the outward date entered, but not the return?
 
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