Northern Disputed Delay Claim

[_toommm_]

Here we go again...

On the 7th May I attempted to travel from Heald Green to Leeds, on the 20:43 to Oxford Road, then the 21:08 to Leeds. I held a CountyCard to Oxford Road, then an advance from there.

I know Northern don't normally offer compensation for CountyCards so I email them and receive an email back stating as I had a combination of tickets, its fine:



No more than 24 hours later, the appeal was rejected as they won't let me claim for a multimodal:



Any advice where to go next, or how to correctly word my replies?

Thanks as always

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Here we go again...

On the 7th May I attempted to travel from Heald Green to Leeds, on the 20:43 to Oxford Road, then the 21:08 to Leeds. I held a CountyCard to Oxford Road, then an advance from there.

I know Northern don't normally offer compensation for CountyCards so I email them and receive an email back stating as I had a combination of tickets, its fine:

View attachment 63021

No more than 24 hours later, the appeal was rejected as they won't let me claim for a multimodal:

View attachment 63022

Any advice where to go next, or how to correctly word my replies?

Thanks as always

It depends on how you want to approach it. Softly softly, taking it through all the motions so you can eventually take it to the Rail Ombudsman? Or just go straight to a Letter Before Action?

 

[_toommm_]

It depends on how you want to approach it. Softly softly, taking it through all the motions so you can eventually take it to the Rail Ombudsman? Or just go straight to a Letter Before Action?

It's not a massive cost - only £7 and some change, plus whatever they'd contribute from my £122 CC. I've never done an La, so I don't know when that would be appropriate to send it off...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It's not a massive cost - only £7 and some change, plus whatever they'd contribute from my £122 CC. I've never done an La, so I don't know when that would be appropriate to send it off...

Sending out an LBA is a prerequisite to (and the last communication you'd have before) taking to Court. If it were me, I'd not waste my time with the internal complaints procedure and the Ombudsman, as we have previously seen that the Ombudsman is of little assistance in these cases.

But then again, I don't know what your approach is - if you are not willing to take it to Court then sending an LBA is not guaranteed to succeed.

 

[kevconnor]

I know what you are saying about the ineffectiveness of Northerns internal complaints procedures but I thought the courts took a dim view of claimants who had not attempted or exhausted a company’s own complaints procedure.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I know what you are saying about the ineffectiveness of Northerns internal complaints procedures but I thought the courts took a dim view of claimants who had not attempted or exhausted a company’s own complaints procedure.

Not really - sending a Letter Before Action is what you are required to do. This is not the Fast Track or Multi Track, where costs rack up to the thousands - going to Court after sufficient written notice and warning is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Kite159]

Sending out an LBA is a prerequisite to (and the last communication you'd have before) taking to Court. If it were me, I'd not waste my time with the internal complaints procedure and the Ombudsman, as we have previously seen that the Ombudsman is of little assistance in these cases.

But then again, I don't know what your approach is - if you are not willing to take it to Court then sending an LBA is not guaranteed to succeed.

Good idea on wasting courts time without going via the companies own appeal process first...

I'm sure the judge will look very highly on the matter before dismissing it out of hand due to "abuse of the court system".

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Good idea on wasting courts time without going via the companies own appeal process first...

I'm sure the judge will look very highly on the matter before dismissing it out of hand due to "abuse of the court system".

That is not within the remit of the Judge - at worst, they can make a wasted costs order, but if you have sent a LBA then that is largely precluded.

The Civil Procedure Rules expect claimants to make reasonable efforts to give defendants the opportunity to pay their debts. They do not expect them to accept being passed from pillar to post through a load of bulls***.

 

[Kite159]

That is not within the remit of the Judge - at worst, they can make a wasted costs order, but if you have sent a LBA then that is largely precluded.

The Civil Procedure Rules expect claimants to make reasonable efforts to give defendants the opportunity to pay their debts. They do not expect them to accept being passed from pillar to post through a load of bulls***.

Since when was completely ignoring the internal appeal process and going straight for the Letter before Action classed as 'reasonable' to claim money?

 

[Puffing Devil]

That is not within the remit of the Judge - at worst, they can make a wasted costs order, but if you have sent a LBA then that is largely precluded.

The Civil Procedure Rules expect claimants to make reasonable efforts to give defendants the opportunity to pay their debts. They do not expect them to accept being passed from pillar to post through a load of bulls***.

They also expect a form of Alternative Dispute Resolution to be explored and explicitly reference Ombudsman; to go to a Letter Before Action before referring the matter to the Rail Ombudsman would be to go outside the CPR and could easily lead to sanctions being applied, which may be the payment of Northern's legal costs.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

They also expect a form of Alternative Dispute Resolution to be explored and explicitly reference Ombudsman; to go to a Letter Before Action before referring the matter to the Rail Ombudsman would be to go outside the CPR and could easily lead to sanctions being applied, which may be the payment of Northern's legal costs.

Other than, of course, the fact that solicitors' costs are only recoverable in exceptional circumstances - i.e. we are talking the kind of cases where no warning at all is given of Court action, and key deadlines are missed (or documents not served on the other party). This is not such a situation.

It would not be expected, by any means, to continue to engage in pointless internal procedures when Northern have clearly put across their views on whether or not they intend to honour their contractual obligations. One could go for the Ombudsman but discussion and negotiation is a perfectly acceptable alternative to ADR as per the CPR, and accordingly if you sent them a Letter Before Action and said you are willing to consider discussion and negotiation, then you have done your bit.

In most cases, a Letter Before Action will rarely be replied to within the usual 14 days, let alone replied to in a manner that recognises the significance of the Letter.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Other than, of course, the fact that solicitors' costs are only recoverable in exceptional circumstances - i.e. we are talking the kind of cases where no warning at all is given of Court action, and key deadlines are missed (or documents not served on the other party). This is not such a situation.

It would not be expected, by any means, to continue to engage in pointless internal procedures when Northern have clearly put across their views on whether or not they intend to honour their contractual obligations. One could go for the Ombudsman but discussion and negotiation is a perfectly acceptable alternative to ADR as per the CPR, and accordingly if you sent them a Letter Before Action and said you are willing to consider discussion and negotiation, then you have done your bit.

In most cases, a Letter Before Action will rarely be replied to within the usual 14 days, let alone replied to in a manner that recognises the significance of the Letter.

They are called sanctions as they are just that - don't play by the rules and you will pay a penalty. In the normal course of events, you would not expect to pay the legal fees of the opposite side. However, if you have caused them to come to court without fully exploring all other routes, as set down in the CPR, then you can expect to pay for costs which may have been avoidable if further discussion or ADR had been pursued. The CPR are there for a reason, specifically to prevent cases coming to court on a whim.

You must follow the CPR or expect to be challenged and face a sanction. Going to court is not a thought experiment.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

They are called sanctions as they are just that - don't play by the rules and you will pay a penalty. In the normal course of events, you would not expect to pay the legal fees of the opposite side. However, if you have caused them to come to court without fully exploring all other routes, as set down in the CPR, then you can expect to pay for costs which may have been avoidable if further discussion or ADR had been pursued. The CPR are there for a reason, specifically to prevent cases coming to court on a whim.

You must follow the CPR or expect to be challenged and face a sanction. Going to court is not a thought experiment.

Based on my experience of other TOCs, I seriously doubt that Northern would have the nous to properly respond to a claim, let alone attempt to claim for costs when the CPR has been complied with. As stated, discussion and negotiation is a perfectly acceptable alternative to ADR in the CPR so if you include that possibility in your LBA then you are fine.