Northern: DO NOT TRAVEL 24th & 31st December

[northwichcat]

Due to a shortage of train crew, we will be operating a reduced service on Christmas Eve with services finishing earlier than usual and multiple routes being impacted by disruption. Customers are advised to plan their journey and check before they travel. Customers with tickets dated 24th December can use their tickets on any Northern service on 22nd December & 23rd December.

Customers on the following routes are advised DO NOT TRAVEL on Sunday 24th December. All trains on these routes will be cancelled and replacement road transport will not be provided:
Lancaster - Morecambe - Heysham Port
Blackpool South - Colne
Wigan - Stalybridge
Clitheroe - Manchester Victoria
Manchester Victoria - Chester
Manchester Piccadilly - Chester via Altrincham
Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe

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Unacceptable from Northern. Do passengers with tickets have a legal right for Northern to provide hotels or taxis?

I would imagine many people with a ticket dated 24 December will not be able to travel on 22 or 23 December instead. If people were able to travel to family members on 22 or 23 they probably would, rather than wait until Christmas Eve.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Funny that this is all in the North-West. I bet the east will only see a couple of ad hoc cancellations (unit faults etc.)

 

[TrainGeekUK]

I’ve not travelled on any trains for months now and quite frankly the way in which the railways are run today is a disgrace, epitomised by the above “news“ from Northern.

I remember the trains in the 70s and 80s that were falling apart, but at least you got a service that was more reliable then than it is now.

I feel really sorry for the customers who only have Northern and Avanti as the only applicable services available.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I’ve not travelled on any trains for months now and quite frankly the way in which the railways are run today is a disgrace, epitomised by the above “news“ from Northern.

I remember the trains in the 70s and 80s that were falling apart, but at least you got a service that was more reliable then than it is now.

I feel really sorry for the customers who only have Northern and Avanti as the only applicable services available.

Yep, at least I can walk to Stockport in 40min if it's dry (or even if it's not) from where I have a wide variety of services.

 

[gordonthemoron]

London North Western are saying the same

 

[northwichcat]

I feel really sorry for the customers who only have Northern and Avanti as the only applicable services available.

I use both Northern and Avanti for work purposes and I find Northern are worse by far. For a while Avanti reduced Manchester-London to 2tph (and have done so again on Saturdays) but they seem to have fewer last minute cancellations than Northern. 24 December won't be the first time Northern have provided no services on certain routes on non-strike days. They've managed to do that on days following strike action before.

It also seems they don't take account of what alternatives are available when deciding to suspend services. Places like Knutsford, Alderley Edge, Chelford, Lostock Gralam etc. have no Sunday bus services. Most of the places served by Hazel Grove/Buxton services have a regular bus alternative.

 

[185]

Terrible incompetence. Need to fire the managing director, Nicholas Donovan and his replacement Chief Operating Officer Tricia Williams.

Shouldn't be seeing this so late in the day. Should have been an emergency timetable finalised several weeks ago.


WARNING: DO NOT TRAVEL. DO NOT GO HOME. DO NOT CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS. HANDS FACE SPACE, WERE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, STOP THE BOATS, SEND THE RAILWAY MANAGEMENT TO RWANDA.

 

[Bletchleyite]

London North Western are saying the same

Very much not. They've issued a warning but not a DO NOT TRAVEL, and on the Abbey Line a replacement bus will operate.

It is disgraceful that Northern are allowed to get away with this.

Shouldn't be seeing this so late in the day. Should have been an emergency timetable finalised several weeks ago.

Agreed, this could have been predicted some time back. Same for LNR - they must have known they had a problem at least a couple of weeks ago and could have prepared and published an emergency timetable variant (even if it was e.g. just removing the Tring semifasts and stepping up the MKC stoppers with it all running 12 car).

 

[ainsworth74]

Looks to me that the issue is staff on the West not wanting to work overtime on Christmas Eve. Not sure how they could avoid this really as if people don't want to work overtime there's not a lot you can do!

 

[The exile]

Unacceptable from Northern. Do passengers with tickets have a legal right for Northern to provide hotels or taxis?

I would imagine many people with a ticket dated 24 December will not be able to travel on 22 or 23 December instead. If people were able to travel to family members on 22 or 23 they probably would, rather than wait until Christmas Eve.

Northern are nationalised so the buck stops, morally if not legally, with the Secretary of State.Maybe everyone who has to make alternative arrangements should send him the bill.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looks to me that the issue is staff on the West not wanting to work overtime on Christmas Eve. Not sure how they could avoid this really as if people don't want to work overtime there's not a lot you can do!

You can prepare plans in advance. They didn't find out that staff didn't want to work yesterday. Or if they did they're incompetent!

(You can also get buses in. Yes, it might be a challenge getting drivers, but if you offer enough pay someone will - it might be costly but if you paid 50 quid an hour you would certainly get volunteers!)

 

[185]

Looks to me that the issue is staff on the West not wanting to work overtime on Christmas Eve. Not sure how they could avoid this really as if people don't want to work overtime there's not a lot you can do!

There is. No-then should be planning the emergency timetable around the staff they have NOT the staff they might have / grow on tree / fall out of the sky.

 

[172007]

Northern JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Northern JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and Engineering Work...

www.journeycheck.com

Unacceptable from Northern. Do passengers with tickets have a legal right for Northern to provide hotels or taxis?

I would imagine many people with a ticket dated 24 December will not be able to travel on 22 or 23 December instead. If people were able to travel to family members on 22 or 23 they probably would, rather than wait until Christmas Eve.

Hopefully it blows up with the public and the red top media demanding where the 40% minimum service level. Even though the new law does not apply in this circumstance.

 

[Mag_seven]

Where is the Rail Regulator of the Tom Winsor variety who would hand out fines for this sort of thing?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Hopefully it blows up with the public and the red top media demanding where the 40% minimum service level. Even though the new law does not apply in this circumstance.

They should have applied it to work in these circumstances. Even RMT strike days still have a skeleton service!

 

[JonathanH]

Realistically the number of people travelling on Christmas Eve, when it is a Sunday, is likely to be limited in any case.

Most people will have made arrangements to travel earlier if they need to do so.

If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be major engineering starting on Sunday on various major routes.

 

[Failed Unit]

You can prepare plans in advance. They didn't find out that staff didn't want to work yesterday. Or if they did they're incompetent!

(You can also get buses in. Yes, it might be a challenge getting drivers, but if you offer enough pay someone will - it might be costly but if you paid 50 quid an hour you would certainly get volunteers!)

EMR have done just that, if they can run it, is an entirely different question, but I assume as it worked by volunteering overtime they needed to ask the drivers a long time ago and the fact no-one said must have being known about a long time ago? Unless they really are asking for staff the week before?

 

[skyhigh]

It's a perfect storm. Sunday and Christmas Eve. For crew on the West, Sundays are voluntary overtime. Staff have been offered an additional signing on bonus but they still don't have the numbers needed to run a service.

They should have applied it to work in these circumstances. Even RMT strike days still have a skeleton service!

How exactly, without forcing staff to work their contractual day off?

 

[gazzaa2]

Poor but Christmas Eve tends to be quiet on a lot of routes at least and the fact it's on Sunday most people will have travelled before then. Some of the reasons that have led to a staff shortfall on TOCs will also have meant less demand from passengers on the day.

Not good enough for those who haven't, but it's got to the point where you can't rely on the railway anymore.

 

[Moonshot]

Looks to me that the issue is staff on the West not wanting to work overtime on Christmas Eve. Not sure how they could avoid this really as if people don't want to work overtime there's not a lot you can do!

This is absolutely correct. At my depot just 3 conductors have agreed to work ...... leaving some 90% of jobs uncovered. It also appears no one is interested in the £100 incentive

 

[northwichcat]

Realistically the number of people travelling on Christmas Eve, when it is a Sunday, is likely to be limited in any case.

Most people will have made arrangements to travel earlier if they need to do so.

If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be major engineering starting on Sunday on various major routes.

There's alternatives for those affected by engineering works (either an alternative line or replacement bus). Northern have just decided to suspend services on routes with less than 48 hours notice given to passengers. How is someone scheduled to work tomorrow supposed to rearrange their shift now, so they don't have to travel on Sunday?

This is absolutely correct. At my depot just 3 conductors have agreed to work ...... leaving some 90% of jobs uncovered. It also appears no one is interested in the £100 incentive

What's the expectation for the following Sunday? Is there hope for an even slightly better service?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Even on lines not mentioned in the DO NOT TRAVEL list, there's still a lot of cancellations
Windermere isn't on the list, but has no trains.

At least ticket acceptance is there for today and tomorrow for tickets dated for the 24th.
But I worry plenty of people won't see about this until Sunday.

 

[ainsworth74]

You can prepare plans in advance. They didn't find out that staff didn't want to work yesterday. Or if they did they're incompetent!

There is. No-then should be planning the emergency timetable around the staff they have NOT the staff they might have / grow on tree / fall out of the sky.

Is this not what they've done? They've confirmed what resource they have avaliable, have planned a timetable accordingly and given the instruction not to travel on the basis that timetable is severely limited?

If they'd published this a week ago or longer would they not then be getting crucified for "throwing the towel in"?

Feels like no matter what they do they're going to get criticised when fundamentally the staff don't have to work overtime and Northern have very limited options to induce them to do so.

 

[northwichcat]

How exactly, without forcing staff to work their contractual day off?

Really one for a separate thread but no business providing a service on Sunday should be relying on people to volunteer to work Sundays.

But I worry plenty of people won't see about this until Sunday.

I think even people who have purchased tickets via apps won't get any notifications until the service they are booked to travel on is actually cancelled in the system. And not everyone will select a return service (or even date) when booking an open return.

 

[alistairlees]

Northern: this is just completely unacceptable. People plan important events (like visiting relatives at Christmas time) around the service that you promise. Many will have planned some way in advance and will find it difficult to make alternative arrangements. This short-notice behaviour will simply teach existing and potential customers that they should not plan to rely on - or even to use - the railway. Every bad PR event like this undoes the work of 10 or more good things that happen on the railway, which is already in a precarious position financially and reputationally. You are bringing the railway into disrepute. This has to stop.

 

[northwichcat]

If they'd published this a week ago or longer would they not then be getting crucified for "throwing the towel in"?

For a while if you book an Avanti service weeks in advance there's a note next to the service warning it may be subject to change. Did Northern not think to do this, when they first became aware there might be an issue? At least 2/3rds of the Avanti services that have warnings against them do actually operate, but it does encourage passengers to double check the day before.

 

[Starmill]

Do passengers with tickets have a legal right for Northern to provide hotels or taxis?

Yes, no different to any other day (unless there's some argument the contract is 'frustrated' - but this would be incredibly rare and clearly isn't applicable here).

Of course they will likely need to litigate if they intend to rely on this right.

 

[Moonshot]

Northern: this is just completely unacceptable. People plan important events (like visiting relatives at Christmas time) around the service that you promise. Many will have planned some way in advance and will find it difficult to make alternative arrangements. This short-notice behaviour will simply teach existing and potential customers that they should not plan to rely on - or even to use - the railway. Every bad PR event like this undoes the work of 10 or more good things that happen on the railway, which is already in a precarious position financially and reputationally. You are bringing the railway into disrepute. This has to stop.

What do you expect Northern to do if staff don't want to work overtime ( which they are perfectly entitled to refuse )?

 

[skyhigh]

Really one for a separate thread but no business providing a service on Sunday should be relying on people to volunteer to work Sundays.

A position which is agreed by the Unions and the Company. But - bringing Sundays inside means a larger establishment of crew. And the DfT/Treasury isn't willing to pay for that.

 

[Pumbaa]

You can prepare plans in advance. They didn't find out that staff didn't want to work yesterday. Or if they did they're incompetent!

(You can also get buses in. Yes, it might be a challenge getting drivers, but if you offer enough pay someone will - it might be costly but if you paid 50 quid an hour you would certainly get volunteers!)

It’s a bit difficult when this all happens in the week leading up. Staff will have seen the 7 Day markup issued over the weekend for next Sunday, and chucked in their job. All processed early this week by resource teams, timescales are what they are. By the time you’ve done assurance, planning, approvals etc, doing that within a week is good going.

Northern aren’t the only TOC in the dumps here, and it’s not “their” fault. Fault really lies with antiquated Sunday working arrangements.