bramling
Veteran Member
Experience shows that people also seem to want Christmas Eve off, or at least the latter part of it.
For a start, not all of us recognise or celebrate Christmas. So all the above would be irrelevant to me.
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Northern: DO NOT TRAVEL 24th & 31st December
- Thread starter northwichcat
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Experience shows that people also seem to want Christmas Eve off, or at least the latter part of it.
For a start, not all of us recognise or celebrate Christmas. So all the above would be irrelevant to me.
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R
RailUK Forums
As a matter of interest, given that Christmas Eve falls on a Sunday every few years, I searched for a 2017 thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...owing-as-cancelled-24-12.158460/#post-3256858
The problem and location isn't new, though the scale seems different.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...owing-as-cancelled-24-12.158460/#post-3256858
The problem and location isn't new, though the scale seems different.
trainophile
Established Member
Would this still be an issue if Christmas Eve was a weekday? Or is it the combination of not being rostered for Sundays unless voluntarily, and "I don't see why I should work it" that is causing the problem?
Is the "spending it with family" a bit of a red herring, as any other year with 24th falling on a weekday you would presumably be expected to do your normal day's shift?
Is the "spending it with family" a bit of a red herring, as any other year with 24th falling on a weekday you would presumably be expected to do your normal day's shift?
wagnaga
Member
I work in an entirely different industry but this approach seems familiar. Staff feeling they need to do something for their customers/clients because of a lack of resource. As someone in management I don't see why staff should be made to feel guilty for other people's failings.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Sadly for many, many people Christmas is little more than an extended shopping festival culminating in a couple of days (at least!) of overindulgence in food and drink, much of which they would never touch at any other time. Given that many rail staff find themselves working during multiple public holiday weekends throughout the year it is hardly surprising that the near complete shutdown over Christmas leads to an expectation of maximising any opportunity to extend that break. How many passengers have only the two days off? Rather few I suspect.
As to goodwill the appalling state of industrial relations currently means that the concept of goodwill on the railways generally is almost dead and it will likely be years before it can be restored to any reasonable level.
Realistically, how many people absolutely have to leave it to a specific train on Christmas eve or else not get home at all. Between trains, buses, coaches and taxis there are lots of opportunities for people to get around the country tomorrow, even if none of those industries are operating a full normal service
I'm working tomorrow, based on my previous experience of working Christmas eve the majority of people on my trains will be people out for Christmas drinks and people doing shopping. Now good on them I say, it's exactly what I'll be doing when I finish up. There will be a service tomorrow(although not as many as normal/planned) so I'm pretty sure that people who need to travel home will manage to do so.
Of course, the majority of people going home for Christmas have already been back for a few days
That could be very easily switched a little bit couldn't it. Maybe, a group of workers who don't normally get the chance to have Christmas eve off, then value the opportunity to have a christmas eve with the family even more.
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Exactly. As I said earlier, same thing also happens (to a lesser extent) around Easter and with the forecast of a particularly warm weekend during the summer holidays.
No it probably wouldn’t. The railway does rely on overtime (for the most part) all year around so perhaps there’d be a few more cancellations than usual but nothing so dramatic.
northwichcat
Established Member
73 cancellations listed then. 424 at present - the problem's got 6 x worse in 6 years! Also, I notice a mention of replacement buses in 2017!
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No they've agreed a paydeal for 2022 with an agreement they won't strike until April whilst discussions take place for the 2023 and 2024 pay. Drivers are on different conditions which means they are obligated to work Sundays.
Wales has just done it with TfW.
bramling
Veteran Member
It isn’t a case of “I don’t see why I should work it”.
More correctly, “I am not contracted to work it, and after due consideration I have decided against offering to work it out of my goodwill”. I really can’t see why anyone can find such a position unreasonable.
If contracted to work then people would fulfil their obligations.
Not everyone needs or wants to work overtime. Many people, quite reasonably, value their personal free time. In fact, one could argue that such people are being responsible by choosing to maintain a more healthy work/life balance.
trainophile
Established Member
I suppose so. I guess I'm looking at it from my own working life, an office job in the private sector so not as challenging or stressful as on the railways. I regularly stayed late for a couple of hours, or went in at weekends, unpaid, to keep on top of my workload in busy periods, and never really begrudged it. It needed doing and it was my responsibility. No technology to work from home in those days.
On Christmas Eve we were allowed to finish at 4:00 instead of 5:00 if we were up to date. We were back at our desks on 27th unless we'd booked annual leave or it was a weekend.
Now retired, but I sometimes wonder how I kept the domestic show on the road for all those years! No children or it would have been impossible, although we did have two sets of parents to feed and entertain over the brief break. To quote someone or other "this ain't no holiday for me". It's no wonder I don't do Christmas now.
I would have snatched my employers hands off for £100, but granted it would have been about £40 then. All we got was a £10 voucher for the staff shop.
Times change, people are more aware of their rights now, and understandably the right not to work overtime is a valid one.
On Christmas Eve we were allowed to finish at 4:00 instead of 5:00 if we were up to date. We were back at our desks on 27th unless we'd booked annual leave or it was a weekend.
Now retired, but I sometimes wonder how I kept the domestic show on the road for all those years! No children or it would have been impossible, although we did have two sets of parents to feed and entertain over the brief break. To quote someone or other "this ain't no holiday for me". It's no wonder I don't do Christmas now.
I would have snatched my employers hands off for £100, but granted it would have been about £40 then. All we got was a £10 voucher for the staff shop.
Times change, people are more aware of their rights now, and understandably the right not to work overtime is a valid one.
Sleepy
Established Member
At my TOC a number of colleagues didn't wish to work the 24th but as we operate with committed Sundays they were declined as not enough volunteers are available, most of the year there is no issue with plenty of volunteers to cover. This is why national "one size fits all" changes to t&c would never have worked, too many different Sunday working arrangements across TOC's (even within same TOC where harmonisation didn't happen eg. GWR)
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My local management are strongly of the view that people should be having a proper rest over Christmas as that's important for morale and productivity in January too. Offices are closed entirely from Christmas Eve until after New Year's Day in many corporate parts of the economy as this allows an opportunity for a proper uninterrupted week off work for admin and facilities staff.
Precisely people do things they wouldn't do given the choice to fulfill their obligations . But on this occassion the opportunity has presented itself for people to not have to do something they don't want .
Even those that do overtime are often selective over it , for instance I accellerated the process of saving for my first house house by doing a lot of overtime, but I was still selective in not volunteering for rest days on saturdays , and I only did early or middle turn sundays . Youll see the people that hammer their overtime opting not to do any over Bank holiday weekends , or days associated with certain football fixtures .
Llandudno
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I don't think a certain Michael Lynch would be happy if the Government or Train Operators Dare to suggest that Sundays should be added to the working week
bramling
Veteran Member
This isn’t really the case. For the union it means extra staff, which of course means extra members. So as long as the solution was negotiated and agreed there wouldn’t be a problem.
It has been explained before that the government and/or TOCs are the ones who are quite happy with the current arrangement, as it adds flexibility, and in particular reduces the headcount. That is quite significant when one reflects upon just how much it costs to have a member of staff on the books.
What the unions would not be happy with is a fudge whereby staff are simply compelled to work extra shifts as forced overtime. And, IMO, quite rightly so.
As has been stated on here every time this discussion comes up the unions are in favour of Sunday within the working week. It's already the case at multiple TOC's as well as London Underground. It's more expensive for employers though which is why it hasn't happened everywhere.
Egg Centric
Member
Not asking for violins as I appreciate we're relatively well off, but where I work there are quite a few of the mid level staff members who "hover" around 100k and also have small kids where there is a literal cliff edge there where you lose free childcare. To be completely clear, if you have young children you are much better off earning £99000 than £110000. It can be avoided through careful pension allocation but still ridiculous (as is the PA withdrawal). As other have mentioned lower down the scale there is also the 50-60k progressive child benefit withdrawal (oh but you still need to sign up to get the NI number and best make sure you do it right otherwise you get paid the benefit and have to give it back at self assessment time).
And even more disgustingly than either of the above, the taper rate of universal credit can hit some of the poorest in society with an effective 70%+ tax as it's withdrawn.
The *true* marginal rate is all over the bloody place and it's also almost entirely the tories fault.
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Yes he's been quite insistent that they should be included within the working week not added to to the working week as enforced overtime. What's unreasonable about that?
RHolmes
Member
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Very few people travel on the 24th unless they absolutely have to. Most will travel home either on or before the 23rd. Especially this year as it’s fallen on a Saturday.
Generally the people who travel on the 24th are those that work in retail and hospitality. When I last worked in retail many years ago, the only train I took ‘home’ on the 24th had 6 passengers total.
This current government’s DfT torpedoed that.
BoroAndy
Member
I thought crew rosters were done weeks or months in advance. "oh I don't want to work tomorrow" should be a disciplinary matter in any workplace if no good reason given
Crew rostering is done as little as 72 hours in advance. You maybe thinking of crew links which are done months in advance. However in this instance at Northern on FNW t&c (west side) a guard can "sign off" Sundays with 7 days notice. This includes booked Sundays.
Guards are not contractually force to work them if they decide not to as long as they follow the correct procedure. Drivers are different in that they have to work their booked Sundays unless cover can be found for their shift by another driver willing to do overtime.
Nowhere has any employee (ok maybe the odd one in a rare occasion) said "oh I don't want to work tomorrow". Of course if they have then yes they have faced action as per the contract.
Hope that clears things up a little...
Peterthegreat
Established Member
At 08.00 this morning Northern were listing 374 cancellations for today.
I do find the differing perspectives interesting actually - we have our 100 quid offer at our TOC which isn't contractual but has been done most years for a while now where Christmas Eve or New Years Eve fall on a Sunday and people generally jump at it.
I've always been quite happy with it as a little bonus, rather than seeing it as an insult. The fact they pay it whether you're doing overtime or rostered work is nice.
I've always been quite happy with it as a little bonus, rather than seeing it as an insult. The fact they pay it whether you're doing overtime or rostered work is nice.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Both the RMT and ASLEF have been wanting this for years?
They don’t want mandatory Sunday overtime- funnily enough- but they do want headcount to increase so that overtime is no longer routinely required.
Falcon1200
Established Member
'Enforced overtime' was exactly how Sundays were treated during most of my 38 year railway career! Sundays were rostered shifts and if I wanted one off, someone else had to agree to cover, otherwise I worked whether I wanted to or not. And AFAIK that is still the system in use today.
So, in the case of Northern Guards are Sundays not part of their roster, so they know in advance when they are expected to work? If so, that is the worst of all possible worlds, and it is not surprising that issues such as those today can arise.
That poster hasn’t said he’s working over Christmas himself, merely opined that others should work on their days off to be “selfless”.
Throughout my railway career to date Sundays have always been normal working days, no extra is paid for working them (unless worked as rest days, in which case the premium payable is the same as any other day of the week), and they can be taken as annual leave subject to the usual restrictions. That is very much the optimum arrangement, the unions support it, and it would prevent issues like we are seeing with Northern.
They aren’t expected to work; on the contrary, they’re perfectly entitled not to, because Sundays aren’t part of their working week. The TOC has chosen to be in the position of being entirely reliant on volunteers to crew services on Sundays, yet has failed to offer a big enough incentive to staff to come to work on Xmas eve (when naturally there are far fewer volunteers than normal), or to make other arrangements for passengers.
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I've rostered people on BR contracts and Sundays were indeed part of the roster. But they weren't contractually enforceable as the contract of employment was for 37 hours a week. BR actually proved that point when they withdrew Sunday working during a dispute so it works both ways.
We rarely had an issue covering Sundays as the time & 3/4 was very attractive. I think only 1 out of 200 plus people made themselves permanently unavailable. That said there was certainly a change over time where new employees were much less willing to work over time than some of the more established ones. As several people have already commented rostering depends on good will when it comes to working non contractual hours and I can see why that might be in short supply.
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