• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern 'Flexi-season tickets'

Status
Not open for further replies.

HBP

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2020
Messages
86
Location
Harrogate
FAQ still says break of journey is not permitted,


The flexi ticket is something I would find useful, but until it’s confirmed that break of journey is permitted, I’m hesitant to buy.

When purchasing through the Northern App it’s not clear either.

‘ Break of journey may not be allowed on all permitted routes’
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The flexi ticket is something I would find useful, but until it’s confirmed that break of journey is permitted, I’m hesitant to buy.

When purchasing through the Northern App it’s not clear either.

‘ Break of journey may not be allowed on all permitted routes’

Does that perhaps refer to the questionable nature of BoJ being allowed on routes which are only Permitted because they are a direct train between the two points on the ticket, one that I don't think was ever properly resolved?
 

bearhugger

Member
Joined
17 Mar 2015
Messages
577
Location
Middlesbrough
Apologies for bringing up an oldish thread, but I was just doing a bit of research on the costs of a season ticket between James Cook University Hospital (JCH) and Middlesbrough (MBR) and the option of these Flexi Tickets came up. I haven't heard of them before so did a search on the forum and this thread came up.
It seems as though these tickets are being rolled out further afield. They also allow unlimited travel for the day so are in some regards similar to a daytripper ticket that I can buy from my local bus companies (stagecoach & Arriva). The only "downside" to these new flexi tickets is having to buy them in bulk, not the case on the bus. Generally though a step in the right direction.
 

ALEMASTER

Member
Joined
18 Aug 2011
Messages
322
A similar product is being trialled on the Sheffield Supertram, including the tram-train service to Rotherham, aimed at part time commuters who don't travel enough for a weekly or monthly ticket to be worthwhile. Flexi-5 is sold exclusively on the Stagecoach app and offers 5 all day passes for the price of 4, you simply activate each ticket on the day you wish to use it and have a month to use all 5.
 

peters

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jul 2020
Messages
916
Location
Cheshire
Apologies for bringing up an oldish thread, but I was just doing a bit of research on the costs of a season ticket between James Cook University Hospital (JCH) and Middlesbrough (MBR) and the option of these Flexi Tickets came up. I haven't heard of them before so did a search on the forum and this thread came up.
It seems as though these tickets are being rolled out further afield. They also allow unlimited travel for the day so are in some regards similar to a daytripper ticket that I can buy from my local bus companies (stagecoach & Arriva). The only "downside" to these new flexi tickets is having to buy them in bulk, not the case on the bus. Generally though a step in the right direction.

I've been informed Northern have been instructed to make tap in and tap out points available at all stations by the end of 2021 and once these are operational on your local line the corresponding flexible season tickets will be made available for sale.

The flexi ticket is something I would find useful, but until it’s confirmed that break of journey is permitted, I’m hesitant to buy.

I had an interesting one from where I used to work. Let's call the station closest to my house station A and the one closest to my workplace station E and that stations B, C and D were calling points. Station E was 0.5 mile from my workplace but in the middle of nowhere, station D was 1.5 miles from my workplace in a different direction but right next to a supermarket. As I only had 15 minutes between my finish time and the train time I didn't opt for walking to station D. However, if I was aware of a significant delay or cancellation and there wasn't the option to remain in the office to do overtime, I would walk to the supermarket next to station D and then catch the train from station D to avoid a long wait in the middle of nowhere. Now that wasn't an issue with a normal season ticket but would it work with one of these flexible tickets?
 
Last edited:

_toommm_

Established Member
Joined
8 Jul 2017
Messages
5,861
Location
Yorkshire
I had an interesting one from where I used to work. Let's call the station closest to my house station A and the one closest to my workplace station E and that stations B, C and D were calling points. Station E was 0.5 mile from my workplace but in the middle of nowhere, station D was 1.5 miles from my workplace in a different direction but right next to a supermarket. As I only had 15 minutes between my finish time and the train time I didn't opt for walking to station D. However, if I was aware of a significant delay or cancellation and there wasn't the option to remain in the office to do overtime, I would walk to the supermarket next to station D and then catch the train from station D to avoid a long wait in the middle of nowhere. Now that wasn't an issue with a normal season ticket but would it work with one of these flexible tickets?

They did originally ban break of journey, but as it now calls out that you can use the tickets for unlimited travel, it seems that starting short at Station D in the evening would be fine.

They do however say that if you don't tap in for your journey, you're treated as not having bought a ticket before boarding, which could leave you liable to a penalty fare so do be careful.
 

tarq

Member
Joined
13 May 2013
Messages
88
I've been informed Northern have been instructed to make tap in and tap out points available at all stations by the end of 2021 and once these are operational on your local line the corresponding flexible season tickets will be made available for sale.

Do we know the order they are rolling these out the platform validators across the Northern network? Are they targeting certain lines, regions first?
 

peters

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jul 2020
Messages
916
Location
Cheshire
Do we know the order they are rolling these out the platform validators across the Northern network? Are they targeting certain lines, regions first?

Their website says they are already available for the below journeys with more routes to be added soon:
Leeds & Harrogate (inc. Burley Park, Headingley, Hornbeam Park, Horsforth, Knaresborough, Pannal, Starbeck, Weeton)
Leeds & Ilkley (inc. Baildon, Guiseley, Menston, Burley-in-Wharfdale, Ben Rhydding)
Leeds & Skipton (inc. Apperley Bridge, Bingley, Cononley, Crossflatts, Frizinghall, Keighley, Kirkstall Forge. Saltaire, Shipley, Steeton & Silsden)
Leeds & Dewsbury
Leeds & Huddersfield
Bolton & Blackburn

So it seems they prioritised West Yorkshire first.

Logically York and Manchester should be added next as that would allow many additional options by only adding the facility at 5 stations but it's Northern so logic doesn't apply.
 

Wallsendmag

Established Member
Joined
11 Dec 2014
Messages
5,223
Location
Wallsend or somewhere in GB
Their website says they are already available for the below journeys with more routes to be added soon:
Leeds & Harrogate (inc. Burley Park, Headingley, Hornbeam Park, Horsforth, Knaresborough, Pannal, Starbeck, Weeton)
Leeds & Ilkley (inc. Baildon, Guiseley, Menston, Burley-in-Wharfdale, Ben Rhydding)
Leeds & Skipton (inc. Apperley Bridge, Bingley, Cononley, Crossflatts, Frizinghall, Keighley, Kirkstall Forge. Saltaire, Shipley, Steeton & Silsden)
Leeds & Dewsbury
Leeds & Huddersfield
Bolton & Blackburn

So it seems they prioritised West Yorkshire first.

Logically York and Manchester should be added next as that would allow many additional options by only adding the facility at 5 stations but it's Northern so logic doesn't apply.
Plus bearing in mind York isn't a Northern run station and has a thousand and one entrances and platform interchanges.
 

tarq

Member
Joined
13 May 2013
Messages
88
Does anyone know of any stations that have had a validator installed that has not yet had Flexi ticketing enabled?

I checked Calderdale Council’s website and found planning applications relating to Hebden Bridge, Mytholmroyd and Halifax dating from August 2019. I suppose other Calderdale stations aren’t subject to the same planning restrictions? I note none of those stations appear on the list above.
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,167
Location
UK
Why not simply reduce the cost of an anytime return, rather than jumping through hoops, requiring complex expensive validation, and removing rights like break of journey?

If you really want to make it more expensive for occasional users who would normally travel via another means, you could introduce a railcard to give the discount.
 

peters

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jul 2020
Messages
916
Location
Cheshire
Why not simply reduce the cost of an anytime return, rather than jumping through hoops, requiring complex expensive validation, and removing rights like break of journey?

If you really want to make it more expensive for occasional users who would normally travel via another means, you could introduce a railcard to give the discount.

I think the idea is to try and ensure people who were daily travellers still use the train for less frequent travelling, rather than to give discounts to the one off travellers.

Plus bearing in mind York isn't a Northern run station and has a thousand and one entrances and platform interchanges.
The Europeans don't seem to struggle having ticket validation machines accessible to everyone, even where there's multiple ways in and out and lots of platforms. I accept touch in and out points are more complex, as they need to do more than just print the date and time.
 
Last edited:

johntea

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2010
Messages
2,605
I think they installed one at Castleford as part of the refurbishment works, and a guard on the line mentioned it was 'coming early 2021'

A shame that as an alternative option you can't just buy a batch of 10 tickets via the Northern app and just activate them individually when you choose to travel rather than the tap in / out faff, like you can buy a batch of bus tickets on the Transdev Go app
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
3,633
The Northern website https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/flexi

states:

'This new product is now on sale between the following stations, in either direction:

  • Leeds & Harrogate (inc. Burley Park, Headingley, Hornbeam Park, Horsforth, Knaresborough, Pannal, Starbeck, Weeton)
  • Leeds & Ilkley (inc. Baildon, Guiseley, Menston, Burley-in-Wharfdale, Ben Rhydding)
  • Leeds & Skipton (inc. Apperley Bridge, Bingley, Cononley, Crossflatts, Frizinghall, Keighley, Kirkstall Forge. Saltaire, Shipley, Steeton & Silsden....'
Surely the inclusion of intermediate stations on the list must imply that break of journey at these stations is permitted?
 

peters

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jul 2020
Messages
916
Location
Cheshire
I'm pretty sure Knaresborough wasn't between Harrogate and Leeds, the last time I checked.
 

SteveM70

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
3,892
Surely the inclusion of intermediate stations on the list must imply that break of journey at these stations is permitted?

I think break of journey is allowed, but my reading of what Northern said is that they’re saying you can get those tickets for journeys between any combination of the stations on that route
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,124
Location
Airedale
I think break of journey is allowed, but my reading of what Northern said is that they’re saying you can get those tickets for journeys between any combination of the stations on that route
The wording on the website is similar for flexi and conventional seasons - (paraphrase) unlimited travel all day between the two named stations. Either BoJ has been withdrawn for smart seasons (unlikely) or it is permitted

Nothing I can find either way in the FAQs (unhelpfully), but as you can evidently tap in and out multiple times in one day I can't see there would be an issue.
 

37201xoIM

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2016
Messages
342
Looks as though these are now being introduced more widely, I'm glad to say, such as for the Durham Coast line (Newcastle - Sunderland - Middlesbrough), and described as allowing "unlimited travel" between the 2 stations chosen on the day of validity (so implying BoJ should be OK?).... only downside is they're only valid that way, not for Newcastle - Darlington - Middlesbrough, presumably because that journey is not NT-only.
 

MountVrmac

New Member
Joined
20 Dec 2016
Messages
4
I have a few gaps in my understanding about terms of the new Northern Trains Flexi ticket.

Using the example of a non-stop route between suburb and city location, in this case Burley Park and Leeds, a 10 day Flexi season ticket gives unlimited travel between the two stations for £35.10 (rather than buying ten peak returns at £3.90, valid for a single journey in each direction).

Due to the flexible nature of the ticket, and need to start it at the beginning of a day's use, unless all validators are malfunctioning you'd have no excuse to not tap in at Burley Park. You'd then be required to tap out to exit the barriers at Leeds.
Assuming an average office work day, you'd then tap in at the Leeds barriers (though of course by this point to confirm validity, rather than trigger another day's ticket) and according to the terms are told you "must" tap out at the end of your journey.

Why might this be required?

Getting off at Burley Park with a paper ticket, you would have it available should revenue protection wish to inspect it. They would also be able to read a valid Flexi season.

If you were to fraudulently travel on to Headingley you would: a) be at risk of revenue protection inspecting your paper or smart ticket, and b) presumably if this failed to happen, not be thick enough to tap out at Headingley.

If you were to somehow travel all the way to another station with barriers (like Harrogate) you would likewise come unstuck regardless of paper or smart ticket.

According to the Northern Trains site:
"You must tap-in and tap-out at the ticket barrier or a platform validator at either end of your journey to activate your ticket. Failure to do so could result in a penalty fare. A customer boarding a train without tapping in first is considered to not have a valid ticket."

Also, how does missing a tap out affect the 'unlimited' aspect of travel? For example, tap in on way to work, exit Leeds barriers, after work re-enter barriers, forget to tap out because you're in a rush to cook dinner, tap back in as you head into town for the cinema, try to exit the barriers in Leeds. Will they open? Does the cinema trip 'tap in' appear as a (late) 'tap out' and cause the Leeds barrier a headache or once validated in the morning, will your smart ticket cause it to happily open and close until 4am?

My theory is that by simply making it the default that you MUST tap in and out, it removes any confusion that you must validate the Flexi at the very first point of that day's travel. Especially that use of the word "activate".

Going back to a thought from the beginning of this mental exercise, say all the Burley Park validators were vandalised overnight. Can the guard validate people's smart flexis with their handheld device? Or if all Burley Park validators appear 'Offline', can the Leeds barriers be made to simultaneously activate the flexis and then open?

But on a more practical note; how come none of the ticket validators, barriers or TVMs appear to have any way to show you how many of your 10 tickets are left, let alone the expiry date of them, as you tap in and out?!
Would this not be slightly useful?
 

peters

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jul 2020
Messages
916
Location
Cheshire
Using the example of a non-stop route between suburb and city location, in this case Burley Park and Leeds, a 10 day Flexi season ticket gives unlimited travel between the two stations for £35.10 (rather than buying ten peak returns at £3.90, valid for a single journey in each direction).
you "must" tap out at the end of your journey.

Why might this be required?

Looking on brfares.com it shows a FLEXIDAY SEASON for £35.10 under seasons and a FLEXI D SEASON for £35.10 under returns. Are they the same ticket or could be two different variations? Maybe one allows you to make 10 return journeys even if the outbound and return journeys are made on different days and the other allows you to make unlimited journeys on 10 dates within 6 months?

If there's only one ticket and it allows unlimited journeys on 10 dates then the only logical reason for 'touching out' would be to ensure you completed your return journey on the same day as your outbound journey?

Going back to a thought from the beginning of this mental exercise, say all the Burley Park validators were vandalised overnight. Can the guard validate people's smart flexis with their handheld device? Or if all Burley Park validators appear 'Offline', can the Leeds barriers be made to simultaneously activate the flexis and then open?

Given you can load and read a smart card season ticket on a mobile device with NFC, the technology is there to touch in and out using a mobile device.

If you think about a slightly different scenario, say you live in Harrogate and work near Burley Park station but once a fortnight you travel in to Leeds city centre then you might want a Harrogate to Burley Park monthly season AND a Burley Park to Leeds flexible season. (If Harrogate to Leeds is the same price as Harrogate to Burley Park then change the stations as appropriate.)
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,167
Location
UK
Why all this hassle, why not simply make a travelcard giving unlimited travel between station A and B and cost £3.50 for the day? Either that or have tap-in and tap-out on contactless, like in London, again at £3.50 for the day (or a cap of £3.50 for the day)
 

peters

On Moderation
Joined
28 Jul 2020
Messages
916
Location
Cheshire
Why all this hassle, why not simply make a travelcard giving unlimited travel between station A and B and cost £3.50 for the day? Either that or have tap-in and tap-out on contactless, like in London, again at £3.50 for the day (or a cap of £3.50 for the day)

I think the idea is to offer a discount to those making regular journeys opposed to offering the cheapest fare to someone who just uses the train once a year the day their car is in for servicing.
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,167
Location
UK
I think the idea is to offer a discount to those making regular journeys opposed to offering the cheapest fare to someone who just uses the train once a year the day their car is in for servicing.

Why would you want to charge people who don't use your service a lot more? Sky for example offer discounts to new customers, then increase the prices until they threaten to leave, then give them a massive discount.

The railway is always about charging more for people who don't jump through the railway hoops. "By all means consider the train rather than the car for your family day out, but we'll charge you 50% more because you haven't paid the membership fee upfront" --- result = people drive, train is empty

Or there's "we'll charge you more because you don't realise if you split your journey at Bristol you can save £100" --- result = people in the know pay less, people not in the know drive

10 returns is £39. Jump through hoops and its £35.10, a 10% discount, until you accidently don't scratch off the right panel, or run out of ink, or forget to touch out, and then your discount is flushed away.

Just charge £3.50 return instead, save the expense of all this carnet enforcement and training, and attract even more people to the railway.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
15,352
Why would you want to charge people who don't use your service a lot more? Sky for example offer discounts to new customers, then increase the prices until they threaten to leave, then give them a massive discount.

The railway is always about charging more for people who don't jump through the railway hoops. "By all means consider the train rather than the car for your family day out, but we'll charge you 50% more because you haven't paid the membership fee upfront" --- result = people drive, train is empty

Or there's "we'll charge you more because you don't realise if you split your journey at Bristol you can save £100" --- result = people in the know pay less, people not in the know drive

10 returns is £39. Jump through hoops and its £35.10, a 10% discount, until you accidently don't scratch off the right panel, or run out of ink, or forget to touch out, and then your discount is flushed away.

Just charge £3.50 return instead, save the expense of all this carnet enforcement and training, and attract even more people to the railway.
Absolutely, how awful of the railway to offer a discount to those prepared to buy in bulk and pay up front!
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,167
Location
UK
Yes, it is bad. You are charging more to those who can't commit money upfront - just like pre-pay electric meters charge people more when they recharge them via paypoint.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
15,352
Yes, it is bad. You are charging more to those who can't commit money upfront - just like pre-pay electric meters charge people more when they recharge them via paypoint.
Everybody does it. It costs more to collect money in instalments than in one lump and that inevitably gets passed on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top