Northern ignoring franchised services to run specials?

[northwichcat]

Yesterday evening Northern had single 142s on what should be double 142 diagrams. Single 142s appeared on 323 diagrams and some services were cancelled due to staff shortages. Yet 323s and staff appeared to run the Old Trafford specials.

If Northern don't have the resources to run train services to Old Trafford why don't they just commission some double decker buses to run between Old Trafford and Manchester Piccadilly?

Not unrelated, can someone confirm if the following is still the right address for Northern compensation claims:

FREEPOST RLSL-ABEC-BGUU
Northern Customer Relations
First Floor, The Travel Centre
City Railway Station
Leeds
LS1 4DY

 

[Eeveevolve]

That may have something to do with 77,000 people being at old trafford for the Rugby League Grand final. All those Whinos fans have to get back to leeds somehow....

 

[northwichcat]

That may have something to do with 77,000 people being at old trafford for the Rugby League Grand final. All those Whinos fans have to get back to leeds somehow....

There would have been just as many going back to St Helens as Leeds.

3 x double decker buses have the same capacity as a 323 and I'm sure the Leeds fans wouldn't have minded buses connecting the ground to the main train station in Manchester, considering that's what visiting fans are normally used to.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not unrelated, can someone confirm if the following is still the right address for Northern compensation claims:

FREEPOST RLSL-ABEC-BGUU
Northern Customer Relations
First Floor, The Travel Centre
City Railway Station
Leeds
LS1 4DY

This is the address that I have sent compensation claims to twice this year and both times, matters were dealt with promptly.

 

[northwichcat]

This is the address that I have sent compensation claims to twice this year and both times, matters were dealt with promptly.

Thanks. It's the address I have noted down from a while back and it's impossible to get hold of claim forms when they cancel trains outside of the Northern Rail staffed ticket office opening hours and even if the ticket office had been open there's no guarantee that they'll have enough claim forms for everyone who intended to travel on the cancelled service.

 

[tbtc]

Yesterday evening Northern had single 142s on what should be double 142 diagrams

Well, if these were ones which the PTE specifies minimum capacity on then they'll pay the appropriate fine. If there is no minimum capacity required then its up to Northern how they allocate resources. (as long as the service runs).

I get the impression that there'd have been a lot more criticism if the 77,000 crowd hadn't been able to get to the ground.

Its a one off match.

 

[northwichcat]

Well, if these were ones which the PTE specifies minimum capacity on then they'll pay the appropriate fine. If there is no minimum capacity required then its up to Northern how they allocate resources. (as long as the service runs).

I get the impression that there'd have been a lot more criticism if the 77,000 crowd hadn't been able to get to the ground.

Its a one off match.

I don't think there are any PTE sponsored services at weekends apart from if a train is sponsored to be utilised in an area opposed to a service getting a subsidy to be strengthened.

I agree if people had missed the start of the game due to failure of advertised rail services there would have been widespread criticism. However, considering how short of carriages we are in the north I think something like that happening could be a blessing in disguise. The cascaded London Midland carriages won't go very far in addressing crowding issues and Thameslink is so far behind schedule it'll seem like an eternity before we get cascaded 319s. The south of England TOCs all have the national media putting pressure on DfT, while that kind of pressure isn't being put on DfT with regards to Northern and TPE.

Man United's ground is within walking distance of Metrolink stops both on the Altrincham and Eccles lines, so Northern Rail specials are not the only option.

 

[ivanhoe]

The running of these specials is important as it allows effective crowd control and relieves valuable resources for other passengers who have no wish to go to Old Trafford. As for using the trams, they are also jam packed anyhow.

It also shows how competent the railways are in moving large numbers in a safe environment. I last used the special in January and was pleasantly surprised how efficient the whole operation was. Rather than castigate Northern, you should be grateful that they are capable of running such specials. Believe me, Using Double Deck buses on this route would have flooded both Picadilly and Oxford Road with even more traffic!

 

[gnolife]

The running of these specials is important as it allows effective crowd control and relieves valuable resources for other passengers who have no wish to go to Old Trafford. As for using the trams, they are also jam packed anyhow.

It also shows how competent the railways are in moving large numbers in a safe environment. I last used the special in January and was pleasantly surprised how efficient the whole operation was. Rather than castigate Northern, you should be grateful that they are capable of running such specials. Believe me, Using Double Deck buses on this route would have flooded both Picadilly and Oxford Road with even more traffic!

I agree that the running of football/rugby specials is necessary, but when you have to barge however many rugby fans out of the way to try to catch a train (IE for me it was the 16:38 to Liverpool LS), which then goes without you, you aren't really going to be too thrilled with it.

 

[tbtc]

I don't think there are any PTE sponsored services at weekends apart from if a train is sponsored to be utilised in an area opposed to a service getting a subsidy to be strengthened

Fair enough. So the "should be double 142 diagrams@ is based on whats normally provided, not on any franchise/PTE requirement.

I agree if people had missed the start of the game due to failure of advertised rail services there would have been widespread criticism. However, considering how short of carriages we are in the north I think something like that happening could be a blessing in disguise. The cascaded London Midland carriages won't go very far in addressing crowding issues and Thameslink is so far behind schedule it'll seem like an eternity before we get cascaded 319s. The south of England TOCs all have the national media putting pressure on DfT, while that kind of pressure isn't being put on DfT with regards to Northern and TPE

Remember the criticism that Northern got on here (and further afield) for not putting on midnight specials for the Radio One Big Weekend in Carlisle (despite signal-men's shifts having ended etc)? Imagine the hysteria if they'd not bothered to run a train service to the dedicated Old Trafford station for a crowd of 77,000? Yup...

IMan United's ground is within walking distance of Metrolink stops both on the Altrincham and Eccles lines, so Northern Rail specials are not the only option.

Nobody is saying that Northern were the only option, but for that number of people you need to throw some resources at getting them there/back.

For a Manchester United home game you're dealing with a significant number who either live in Greater Manchester (despite the predictable taunts from supporters of other teams who's fans all live a stone's throw from the ground) or at at least familiar with getting to Old Trafford and will use trams etc.

For Leeds Rhinos fans, who don't play at Old Trafford every year, they are more in need of a simple train service from Piccadilly to the ground.

Its not like Northern are LM, with all their spare 170s sitting around off peak...

 

[snail]

Northern also doubled up some services from Blackpool South yesterday afternoon because of an event at the Pleasure Beach. This was a combination of relief trains (I don't know which stock) and road coaches running direct from BPS to Preston.

 

[175001]

I reality, what "should" and "does" turn up, is a lottery at the moment as there is a shortage of availabe units due to heavy maintanence at Newton de la Heath.

Coupled to a weekend of many events, where the resource team try and diagram the right unit for the right occasion, means that a few services will be short-formed. Its a way of life up here.

I was lucky last night, I got a 156 for my full diagram, which meant I could fit many St Helens fans on at Occy Rd for Wigan last night, the following Airport-Southport was a 142, and didn't fair so well leaving Salford.

I'm defending Northern here, as its not their fault so many things are planned on the same weekend.

You win some, you lose some i'm afraid.

 

[driver9000]

Northern also doubled up some services from Blackpool South yesterday afternoon because of an event at the Pleasure Beach. This was a combination of relief trains (I don't know which stock) and road coaches running direct from BPS to Preston.

No they didn't. Not to my knowledge anyway. Yesterdays Colne-Blackpool South circuit was covered by 2x150s and 2x142s. 4 units for 4 diagrams, no strengthening and reliefs can't run to Blackpool South due to the single line. I don't remember any Northern chartered road coaches either although there were coaches parked outside the Pleasure beach from various parts of the country.

I saw all 4 units yesterday.

 

[Eric]

There would have been just as many going back to St Helens as Leeds.

3 x double decker buses have the same capacity as a 323 and I'm sure the Leeds fans wouldn't have minded buses connecting the ground to the main train station in Manchester, considering that's what visiting fans are normally used to.

Don't talk rubbish.

Have you ever seen the traffic around Old Trafford on Grand Final day?

Northern would have made a killing selling the £2.40 return tickets yesterday.

 

[northwichcat]

Don't talk rubbish.

Have you ever seen the traffic around Old Trafford on Grand Final day?

Northern would have made a killing selling the £2.40 return tickets yesterday.

If Northern Rail had chartered the buses they could have profited from them. Northern Rail don't exactly get to keep £2.40 profit from each ticket.

Considering the two G4S guys at the top of Piccadilly 13/14 were letting anyone past who flashed something orange at them and the ticket gates at Oxford Road were left in an open position yesterday evening I wonder how many of the passengers on the specials were ticketless. The conductor can't check 300 tickets in the total 10 minute journey time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Coupled to a weekend of many events, where the resource team try and diagram the right unit for the right occasion, means that a few services will be short-formed. Its a way of life up here.

While I mentioned services being short formed I'm more bothered about the normal scheduled trains being cancelled due to not enough train crews. Obviously, the carriages have to be utilised as best they can be (although Northern could have got one or two of their 180s out yesterday) but leaving a 2 hour gap in service on some lines and not telling passengers about it in advance is another thing.

 

[driver9000]

There is only one working 180 at the moment and at weekends there isn't always a 180 trained Driver and Guard rostered together on a weekend so its not as simple as powering it up and getting out of the sidings into traffic.

 

[snail]

No they didn't. Not to my knowledge anyway. Yesterdays Colne-Blackpool South circuit was covered by 2x150s and 2x142s. 4 units for 4 diagrams, no strengthening and reliefs can't run to Blackpool South due to the single line. I don't remember any Northern chartered road coaches either although there were coaches parked outside the Pleasure beach from various parts of the country.

Well, I suppose it's possible that the person who told me was imagining things but I don't think so. More likely is that it was a second 142 or 150 set coupled to the front service; to someone unfamiliar with the terminology it would have looked like they were being told to board 'the other train'. They were definite in specifying that two 'trains' and at least one coach were accepting passengers for Preston - this would have been the scheduled 17:44 service. Some of their group couldn't get seats on the train and were waiting for them at Preston as the road journey is quicker.

 

[exile]

Well, we could take a time machine back to the 60s and have lots of mothballed rolling stock in sidings ready for these events.

 

[Greenback]

The stock wasn't mothballed, it just wasn't used as intensively as we are used to today!

 

[185]

The 323 on the Old Traffords is a single 323 unit formed by an extension of a Hazel Grove service, and using the crew's (normally lengthy) turnaround time to do the second trip. The next train comes in and does the same if I remember right - it doesnt actually use an extra unit or crew.

For a 323, which is normally rampacked, I doubt if 3 double deckers (taking 40 minutes each) would cope with 300/350 passengers on the 4 X six minute rail journeys.

 

[exile]

The stock wasn't mothballed, it just wasn't used as intensively as we are used to today!

Apparently 1 coach in 6 was in use at any one time - that's pretty well the same as being mothballed!

 

[Bevan Price]

I don't think there are any PTE sponsored services at weekends apart from if a train is sponsored to be utilised in an area opposed to a service getting a subsidy to be strengthened.

I agree if people had missed the start of the game due to failure of advertised rail services there would have been widespread criticism. However, considering how short of carriages we are in the north I think something like that happening could be a blessing in disguise. The cascaded London Midland carriages won't go very far in addressing crowding issues and Thameslink is so far behind schedule it'll seem like an eternity before we get cascaded 319s. The south of England TOCs all have the national media putting pressure on DfT, while that kind of pressure isn't being put on DfT with regards to Northern and TPE.

Man United's ground is within walking distance of Metrolink stops both on the Altrincham and Eccles lines, so Northern Rail specials are not the only option.

Have you ever seen the Metrolink trams when there is a big match at Old Trafford ? Crush+ loads aplenty when I have seen them.

Bevan

 

[mumrar]

Apparently 1 coach in 6 was in use at any one time - that's pretty well the same as being mothballed!

How dare you question the efficiency of the good old days

 

[davo882000]

I'm still new to this ... What is diagrams and how would the normal member of the public see one or get access to one?

 

[First class]

I'm still new to this ... What is diagrams and how would the normal member of the public see one or get access to one?

A diagram is the driver or guards instructions for the day.

E.g.

0500 Book on at xxx depot
0533 Work 2C11 (507011) to Chester EMU
0921 Work 5X11 (508129) ECS to Rock Ferry Siding 2 EMU
1000 PNB

and so on...

You will struggle to find one in public.

A train's diagram would be a list of all the services it was booked to work that day.

E.g. DMU 150201

1Z01 10:00 Birmingham to London 12:00
1Z70 13:00 London to Birmingham 15:00
5X11 16:00 Birmingham to Tysley CS 19:00

etc etc - all above timings etc completely random.

 

[Welshman]

The stock wasn't mothballed, it just wasn't used as intensively as we are used to today!

There was some stock - usually of the non-corridor variety - used only during the mill/factory/Wakes holidays in July and August. Then allowed to slumber quietly in the sidings for the next 10 months!

 

[Yorkswatcher]

And of course Northern are a sponsor of another of the RFL competitions so that might another reason for putting the service on.

 

[northwichcat]

Have you ever seen the Metrolink trams when there is a big match at Old Trafford ? Crush+ loads aplenty when I have seen them.

Yes I have. I've also had the misfortune to use them on the Altrincham line when an England cricket game was finishing and just before a Man United game when there were no trains due to industrial action. I was trying to point out that heavy rail is not the only option available not trying to say everyone leaving the match could get a tram back straight away.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 323 on the Old Traffords is a single 323 unit formed by an extension of a Hazel Grove service, and using the crew's (normally lengthy) turnaround time to do the second trip. The next train comes in and does the same if I remember right - it doesnt actually use an extra unit or crew.

That's make no sense. Regular Piccadilly-Hazel Grove services ceased to exist in 2008. The majority of Hazel Grove services come from Preston and 323s at Hazel Grove are now a rare site.

There are no Saturday afternoon/early evening Hazel Grove to Piccadilly services that don't continue to Preston. There are just two evening Piccadilly-Hazel Grove services on a Saturday - one leaving Piccadilly at 17:09, the other at 19:22. Both these services would have left Piccadilly before any return working from Old Trafford arrived at Piccadilly. If the workings from Old Trafford were extended to Hazel Grove that would have meant additional services ran to Hazel Grove as well.

 

[175001]

I'm still new to this ... What is diagrams and how would the normal member of the public see one or get access to one?

You won't be able to get staff dockets, they are ours .

But diagrams for units can be found online like on here or http://www.thejunction.org.uk/

 

[balne-wonderer]

That may have something to do with 77,000 people being at old trafford for the Rugby League Grand final. All those Whinos fans have to get back to leeds somehow....

Don't you mean Rhinos mate. There was a train out of Victoria at 21.21 but given how packed and slow the trams were alot of us didn't make that train and had to wait until 22.54. Some people I know that live in EAST YORKSHIRE and drove back from the game arrived at home BEFORE WE LEFT VICTORIA! Pure madness.

Oh and by the way, Champions!! Ole ole ole!!!

I don't suspect packed trams is too much of a problem for Manchester United home games as the majority of the people will be driving back to the south or catching a plane to Ireland.