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Northern line service levels

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bramling

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How much is automated these days? Ideally computers should help regulate the service. In parctice, I dare say, there is only so much you can do if a train is cancelled or runs late.

In the case of the Seltrac system, it’s very automated, such that it can probably be reasonably said that the signallers don’t actually signal trains. When they do intervene all they can realistically do is influence the system into behaving in certain ways. So for example the signaller might hold one train which ensures another one will be routed first. Or they might adjust the timings of a train so that the system routes it in preference to another.

With the system having been designed by software engineers in Canada with fairly minimal understanding of London Underground, one can see how this means the finished product leaves a lot to be desired in terms of how it handles and regulates train movements. This really shows up during disruption.


Is it just my experience or are things worse at the weekend where traffic is now exceeding pre-covid levels? Presumably if there is a shortage of operators that is when it shows up most.

A lot of weekend issues are down to crewing. Firstly the duties are tighter, as they are designed on the basis of requiring as few drivers as possible to cover all the work that needs doing. Secondly there is always a tendency towards poorer availability of drivers at weekends, especially Saturdays. Partly old habits die hard in that traditionally weekdays were seen as more important (and to be honest should still be - it’s all very well people going on about leisure demand, however productive work is what ultimately sustains a healthy economy and society), but also most people simply don’t really want to work weekends, not helped by the duties being generally rougher as described above.

On top of that, generally schedules tend to be a bit tighter, and at the same time weekend passengers are more of a ball-ache in general as they take longer to get on and off, more likely to get stuck in closing doors, all try and get on through one set of doors, do silly things, et cetera. Plus sometimes exacerbated loadings if there’s engineering work on one line causing people to switch to another, and of course lopsided traffic due to events.

So yes things are always rougher at weekends.
 
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Daniel

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I believe TBTC handles things itself if a train is early/late

Not really. It can reduce platform dwell times to the minimums set for that platform, but it makes very poor regulation choices.
 

bakerstreet

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9 minute gap on northbound northern line (Charing x branch) at 4.30pm Monday evening peak.
 

Busaholic

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But unfortunate that board says good service
One 9 minute gap has never triggered the generalised service advice, which is not intended to change for each line every few minutes and thus become almost like a lottery, leading to meaningless. The term has certainly been in use since WW2, possibly earlier, and must carry some weight for TfL to continue using it.
 

bakerstreet

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One 9 minute gap has never triggered the generalised service advice, which is not intended to change for each line every few minutes and thus become almost like a lottery, leading to meaningless. The term has certainly been in use since WW2, possibly earlier, and must carry some weight for TfL to continue using it.
Yes that’s true, but mine was not the only nine minute gap, even the trains from towards the terminus into Central London were crowded, there were further 7 to 9 minute gaps that I saw on the southbound when I arrived at my destination.

Presumably, if this is the aftermath of a problem, perhaps it might be worth knowing that trains will be far more crowded than usual – I had to miss my first train and I’m sure others did too.

I certainly would welcome the advance notice.

Isn’t that what the status ‘minor delays’ is for?

From TfL - https://tfl.gov.uk/status-updates/status-definitions

Good service​

Services are running as we'd expect them to. There may be the occasional short local delay or gap, but we are running as advertised.

Minor delays​

You might have to wait a little longer or your service may take longer to reach its destination. It sometimes means that your journey will be busier than usual, but we don't recommend changing your route.

Severe delays​

Our service is significantly disrupted. You are likely to have to wait, and your journey will take a lot longer than usual. This means your journey is likely to be busy and your service may not travel all the way to its advertised destination.

We recommend taking another route if you can. Where possible, we'll arrange for your ticket to be accepted on London Buses and National Rail at no extra cost.

Length of delays​

These service messages don't give the length of time you can expect to be delayed by because the frequency of services varies across different parts of TfL. In some cases, there are services every two minutes while on others, they're every 30 minutes.

This means that when there is disruption, the actual length of the delay will vary. So Minor delays could mean a delay of a few minutes at a central London station, but a longer delay further out on our network.
 
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Daniel

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Ah ok - unconnected then, thanks.
But unfortunate that board says good service

You said you were travelling at 16:30 - it's currently 17:30 and the Northern Line is advertising Severe Delays across the entire line because of a signal failure which occurred at 11:53. I'm not sure which board you checked, but I'm wondering if either it was a non-TfL one, or one of the platform DMI boards which have to be manually updated and therefore wasn't showing what was actually the advertised service status. It looks as if the line has been advertising 'Severe' since resuming after a part suspension which ceased at 15:57.
 

bakerstreet

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You said you were travelling at 16:30 - it's currently 17:30 and the Northern Line is advertising Severe Delays across the entire line because of a signal failure which occurred at 11:53. I'm not sure which board you checked, but I'm wondering if either it was a non-TfL one, or one of the platform DMI boards which have to be manually updated and therefore wasn't showing what was actually the advertised service status. It looks as if the line has been advertising 'Severe' since resuming after a part suspension which ceased at 15:57.
It was the portrait plasma board at Mornington Crescent station entrance.

Perhaps the board had more than one page - that might explain it.

I definitely checked the board when I saw the unexpected gap but I may not have waited long enough to see an additional page.
 

bramling

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One 9 minute gap has never triggered the generalised service advice, which is not intended to change for each line every few minutes and thus become almost like a lottery, leading to meaningless. The term has certainly been in use since WW2, possibly earlier, and must carry some weight for TfL to continue using it.

Good service is a relatively recent thing. It was always “normal service”, but got changed I think at some point in the early 2000s, to give a feel-good factor. What it did was immediately cause issues for staff when people query why a “good service” has just seen them wait far longer for a train than scheduled.
 

Goldfish62

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Good service is a relatively recent thing. It was always “normal service”, but got changed I think at some point in the early 2000s, to give a feel-good factor. What it did was immediately cause issues for staff when people query why a “good service” has just seen them wait far longer for a train than scheduled.
It was terminology brought over from the New York Subway by the then Commissioner, Bob Kiley.

Quite apt really, given the North American influence on the Underground since its inception.
 

Mikey C

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Good service is a relatively recent thing. It was always “normal service”, but got changed I think at some point in the early 2000s, to give a feel-good factor. What it did was immediately cause issues for staff when people query why a “good service” has just seen them wait far longer for a train than scheduled.
The expression "good service" slightly irritates me as well, as it sounds like patting yourself on the back for delivering what should be normal anyway...
 

bramling

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The expression "good service" slightly irritates me as well, as it sounds like patting yourself on the back for delivering what should be normal anyway...

Agreed. I dislike it. It feels like another example of managements that can’t be honest with themselves, but instead want to delude themselves to justify their performance. That’s TFL all over, very sadly.

The Northern Line recently won an award for its service. Not really that much of an achievement when put into context and one considers that the competition is the Central Line!
 

Peter Mugridge

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I believe the extended gaps are due to an earlier problem in the Oval area
Yes - there was a signal failure around lunchtime between Stockwell and Oval; this caused enough disruption that I ended up bailing out at Old Street for a bus to London Bridge after the train was just sitting there for ten minutes following a previous five minute hold at Angel. At that point it was obvious what was going to be the quicker way!
 

subzero

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For the past few weeks the northern line has constantly had "minor delays" which are being attributed to "a shortage of trains". I have been a regular user of the line for a decade and have never seen constant issues like this.

Can anyone explain further what's going on here? Is it a maintenance issue?

Any ideas when it will be resolved?
 

Dstock7080

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17 trains cancelled each peak period Friday 1 May "due to unavailability of rolling stock", 83.6% of service provided.
 

bramling

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For the past few weeks the northern line has constantly had "minor delays" which are being attributed to "a shortage of trains". I have been a regular user of the line for a decade and have never seen constant issues like this.

Can anyone explain further what's going on here? Is it a maintenance issue?

Sort of. The shoebeams have been suffering from cracking, which has resulted in an enhanced inspection regime. A cracked shoebeam means the train will be unavailable for service.

There have been difficulties obtaining replacements, hence the shortage of available trains.

Not sure if this is simply a lifespan issue, or whether a result of the harsher lifestyle these trains nowadays have compared to their first 15 years.
 

snowleopard

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On coming back from a longish holiday, I can see that the “minor delays due to a shortage of trains” are still with us. I assume this is still due to same issue with shoebeams/cracking? Does anyone have any insight into when we might expect a recovery of service…or is this a long term problem now?
 

WizCastro197

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Waited 8 minutes at Leicester Square for a train which thankfully went straight through to Morden at around 19:00, the other week. No Kennington/Battersea trains before that anyway.
 

snowleopard

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a few mins ago (so shortly after 8.15pm on a week day) I arrived at Charing Cross to see first northbound Northern line train to be in 10mins (High Barnet), followed by further trains in 14 (Edgeware) and 18mins (HB again). London privilege and all aside, I think regular commuters will perceive this as quite the deterioration and I’m surprised TfL has not communicated actively about it (contrast Central line issues). I also note that according to the display panels in the ticket hall, no issues were recorded on the Northern line tonight, i.e. not even the now habitual minor delays.
 

bramling

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a few mins ago (so shortly after 8.15pm on a week day) I arrived at Charing Cross to see first northbound Northern line train to be in 10mins (High Barnet), followed by further trains in 14 (Edgeware) and 18mins (HB again). London privilege and all aside, I think regular commuters will perceive this as quite the deterioration and I’m surprised TfL has not communicated actively about it (contrast Central line issues). I also note that according to the display panels in the ticket hall, no issues were recorded on the Northern line tonight, i.e. not even the now habitual minor delays.

TFL isn’t particularly good nowadays at admitting they have problems. Indeed people might be surprised to know the Northern Line has actually won awards recently for its service, which I find stretches credibility somewhat. Aside from the daily issues, the Colindale blockade was a fiasco as well, especially at the beginning.
 

Tetchytyke

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a few mins ago (so shortly after 8.15pm on a week day) I arrived at Charing Cross to see first northbound Northern line train to be in 10mins (High Barnet), followed by further trains in 14 (Edgeware) and 18mins (HB again)
The standard timetable is every 6 minutes to each branch. One single missing Edgware train wouldn't meet the criteria to be 'minor delays'.
 

snowleopard

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Please: it’s Edgware. In friendship.
Apologies, that's typing too quickly on my phone... (Though as a High Barnet branch denizen, I'm not used to typing the word very often...)

The standard timetable is every 6 minutes to each branch. One single missing Edgware train wouldn't meet the criteria to be 'minor delays'.
Sorry I'm probably being slow. But TFL tells me that from Charing Cross northbound, there should have been, per timetable:
2018 to Edgware
2021 to High Barnet
2024 to Edgware
2027 to High Barnet
2030 to Edgware
2033 to High Barnet
and so on.

Per my original post I arrived shortly after 2015 at the platform and the countdown board showed next trains as in 10mins to HB, in 14 to Edgware and in 18mins to HB.

That suggests that neither the 2018 to Edgware, nor the 2021 to HB nor the 2024 to Edgware were running, and the first one running was the 2027 to HB (which fits well with "HB train 10 minutes from 'shortly after 2015'"). Thereafter it seems more regular, albeit with 4mins instead of 3mins gaps.

So a total of three trains (2 Edgware ones and 1 HB one) not running? Unless I'm missing something
 

rebmcr

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there should have been, per timetable
Tube services don't run to a timetable — it's there as an initial plan, but throughout the day the service is instead maintained by adhering to relative headways (or at least attempting to) rather than by adhering to absolute departure/arrival times. It is for this reason that TfL do not advertise the timetables, only making them available via FOI requests or on a special page tucked away on their website. It's also the reason that they are officially only called "Working Time Tables".
 

bramling

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Tube services don't run to a timetable — it's there as an initial plan, but throughout the day the service is instead maintained by adhering to relative headways (or at least attempting to) rather than by adhering to absolute departure/arrival times. It is for this reason that TfL do not advertise the timetables, only making them available via FOI requests or on a special page tucked away on their website. It's also the reason that they are officially only called "Working Time Tables".

This isn’t really true. For the Northern Line the system attempts to run everything *exactly* as per the WTT, essentially to the nearest second.

The control staff will make adjustments in order to try and balance out headways (for example making a train run earlier or later, or simply by holding one or more trains at selected locations for chosen amounts of extra time), but the over-riding aim is to try and run to timetable as far as possible, and to get back to timetable in the event of late running or disruption. If for no other reason than that if the service doesn’t run to timetable then it doesn’t take long to screw up the driver diagrams, which then causes all sorts of problems.
 

rebmcr

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This isn’t really true. For the Northern Line the system attempts to run everything *exactly* as per the WTT, essentially to the nearest second.
Ah I see, is that a new methodology that Seltrac has introduced?
 

bluegoblin7

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Ah I see, is that a new methodology that Seltrac has introduced?

Not really - the principle has always been to run to WTT, primarily for - as @bramling states - driver diagram purpose. This is just as much the case on e.g. the Met as it is the Northern today.

Where headway is important is during disruption - even minor - where a driver just starting duty is your best asset. Slot them in where needed to maintain headway and get them back on path later on. I would agree the WTT is a best idea plan, but it also makes everyone.ms lives easier when you run to at least some of it wherever possible.

E.g. If you have trains 2-1-3-4-5 it’s relatively straight forwards to balance headway and get back to booked order with one spare (or relieving) driver to get back to time. Headway is key, but the WTT is key.

Trains 2-3-5-1-4, or instance, are harder. You could spin 1 and 4 short, but that potentially creates a gap. Again, reforming as above might help, but if trains 2 and 3 are on time it might limit options. Again, spare drivers (and, rarely, trains) can help, but ultimately driver 1 still needs to finish at the time they should have been ahead of 1.

Service control is an unenviable job with many spinning plates.
 
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