Northern rail app problem

[jabjab999]

Today I had a problem with the northern rail app that has led to a fine (haven't received yet). I had bought a ticket (turned out to be an advanced single on the train before). On the train before it left the station there's an announcement saying about making sure it's valid so I go to check. I realise that it's the wrong ticket but there's a button saying "change your journey" I click this and after a few steps i just get an error. The ticket person then comes around and fines me as I have the wrong ticket. I didn't buy a new one as I thought I'd just be able to change the time on it.... I have screenshots and a screen recording that prove my side of the story. Am I realistically going to be able to argue my case or should I just pay up? Since the fine I've checked and I wouldn't have been able to change the ticket as it was too late, as the app didn't work do I have a case? I've attached pictures and video

 

[AlterEgo]

You can’t change an Advance ticket after the time of travel. Is that what you tried to do? I’m looking at the time stamps.

 

[jabjab999]

You can’t change an Advance ticket after the time of travel. Is that what you tried to do? I’m looking at the time stamps.

Effectively yes, I didn't know that though and the app made it seem like you could. Annoying as I'd have happily just bought another £4 ticket... I assume I should just pay then?

 

[skyhigh]

Today I had a problem with the northern rail app that has led to a fine (haven't received yet)

I assume I should just pay then?

It sounds like they've just taken your details at the moment, and they haven't told you what they want you to pay? In which case, you will likely get a letter through the post which will ask for your side of the story and there's nothing to pay yet.

 

[Adam Williams]

ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED is normally indicative of network connectivity issues, rather than an issue at the service provider's end (although the latter isn't impossible).

 

[WesternLancer]

Today I had a problem with the northern rail app that has led to a fine (haven't received yet). I had bought a ticket (turned out to be an advanced single on the train before). On the train before it left the station there's an announcement saying about making sure it's valid so I go to check. I realise that it's the wrong ticket but there's a button saying "change your journey" I click this and after a few steps i just get an error. The ticket person then comes around and fines me as I have the wrong ticket. I didn't buy a new one as I thought I'd just be able to change the time on it.... I have screenshots and a screen recording that prove my side of the story. Am I realistically going to be able to argue my case or should I just pay up? Since the fine I've checked and I wouldn't have been able to change the ticket as it was too late, as the app didn't work do I have a case? I've attached pictures and video

What 'fine' have you got - do you mean you had to pay a Penalty Fare to someone on the day and did you pay it?

 

[jabjab999]

ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED is normally indicative of network connectivity issues, rather than an issue at the service provider's end (although the latter isn't impossible).

It definitely wasn't at my end I tested later on 2 different wifis as well as the original data and all three produced the same result

What 'fine' have you got - do you mean you had to pay a Penalty Fare to someone on the day and did you pay it?

Not sure yet they took my details and said I'd receive one in the post. I assume one of the £20 ones

 

[AlterEgo]

Not sure yet they took my details and said I'd receive one in the post. I assume one of the £20 ones

This won’t be a penalty fare I’m afraid but a report for prosecution, with the opportunity to settle out of court for about £100. Unfortunately you had no ticket - your Advance from earlier in the day was worthless as soon as that time passed and you needed to buy a new ticket before you boarded. It’s harsh but that’s the way it is I’m afraid.

 

[jabjab999]

Why wouldn't it just be one of these https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares ? There's no way I'm paying £100 because there app has a fault. It's not like I was using the Trainline app or someone elses i was using the app of northern rail.

 

[Watershed]

Why wouldn't it just be one of these https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares ? There's no way I'm paying £100 because there app has a fault. It's not like I was using the Trainline app or someone elses i was using the app of northern rail.

Penalty Fares aren't issued by post. If you weren't issued with a Penalty Fare there and then, this won't be dealt with by means of a Penalty Fare and instead it will likely be a choice of paying an out of Court settlement of around £80-100 plus the single fare for the journey, or being prosecuted for (and likely convicted of) an offence under Railway Byelaw 18.

Yes, it's unfair and utterly disproportionate - but that's the way it is. And not paying the settlement (if you are offered one) will simply cost you more.

I must say, however - having been specifically told to check whether your ticket was valid before the train leaves, and being unable to change your ticket to obtain a valid one, I'm surprised you didn't actively seek out a member of staff prior to departure, or leave the train.

 

[Haywain]

There's no way I'm paying £100 because there app has a fault. It's not like I was using the Trainline app or someone elses i was using the app of northern rail.

You have been reported for travelling without a valid ticket. As noted upthread it is not clear there was any fault with the app, but that isn't relevant anyway - it is your responsibility to ensure you have a valid ticket before the train departs.

 

[skyhigh]

There's no way I'm paying £100 because there app has a fault. It's not like I was using the Trainline app or someone elses i was using the app of northern rail.

The thing is though, that your Advance ticket is basically of zero value after the departure time of the booked train. You could never have amended it to a later train at that point.

 

[jamiearmley]

I have seen this error before. I think : although this is only my own conjecture and not based on any factual source : that the error message appears in situations where the ticket cannot be amended : such as this situation, where the time of the advance ticket has passed and therefore cannot be amended. I think it should produce a message explaining that the ticket cannot be amended, but instead produces this error message.

As the terms of the ticket state that they can only be amended up until the departure time of the train on the original ticket, and these terms have been agreed to by the purchaser as part of the purchase process, i think settling would be the best course of action.

I wonder if the "change journey" option remained visible if there was another advance single still eligible to be changed in the same booking?

I spend a lot of my time at work advising customers against these silly 'short distance' advances. A change of plan on a normal day can render the ticket invalid, or worse. Given the single tickets are £4 - £5.20 each way, and the day return is £10, the benefit of complete flexibility is easily worth it.

 

[jabjab999]

This won’t be a penalty fare I’m afraid but a report for prosecution, with the opportunity to settle out of court for about £100. Unfortunately you had no ticket - your Advance from earlier in the day was worthless as soon as that time passed and you needed to buy a new ticket before you boarded. It’s harsh but that’s the way it is I’m afraid.

Is there a reason why a report of prosecution would occur instead of the fixed £20 fine. I'd happily pay the £20 fine as I technically am using the wrong ticket. How do they decide which fine to give?

 

[Watershed]

Is there a reason why a report of prosecution would occur instead of the fixed £20 fine. I'd happily pay the £20 fine as I technically am using the wrong ticket. How do they decide which fine to give?

It's likely because you encountered a conductor rather than a member of revenue protection staff. Conductors aren't trained or authorised to issue Penalty Fares - only revenue protection staff can do that. Conductors usually tend to resolve an irregularity by simply selling a new ticket, but it is down to their discretion whether they do this or take your details so that you can be prosecuted.

Having had your details taken, it's no longer possible for you to be retrospectively issued with a Penalty Fare and accordingly you can only be prosecuted, with the possibility (at Northern's discretion) of being offered an out of Court settlement.

Unfortunately there is no "technically" about it - you didn't have a valid ticket, and that's an offence under the Railway Byelaws. And this is what can happen as a result.

 

[jabjab999]

I have seen this error before. I think : although this is only my own conjecture and not based on any factual source : that the error message appears in situations where the ticket cannot be amended : such as this situation, where the time of the advance ticket has passed and therefore cannot be amended. I think it should produce a message explaining that the ticket cannot be amended, but instead produces this error message.

As the terms of the ticket state that they can only be amended up until the departure time of the train on the original ticket, and these terms have been agreed to by the purchaser as part of the purchase process, i think settling would be the best course of action.

I wonder if the "change journey" option remained visible if there was another advance single still eligible to be changed in the same booking?

I spend a lot of my time at work advising customers against these silly 'short distance' advances. A change of plan on a normal day can render the ticket invalid, or worse. Given the single tickets are £4 - £5.20 each way, and the day return is £10, the benefit of complete flexibility is easily worth it.

I very rarely use the train (5 times in the last year) so didn't even think to check what I was buying, the price difference was 50p.... The most annoying bit is I never even left the station i took the train there delivered a computer part to someone in the station then returned to the train back. I thought 6 minutes would be enough but ended up taking 10

It's likely because you encountered a conductor rather than a member of revenue protection staff. Conductors aren't trained or authorised to issue Penalty Fares - only revenue protection staff can do that. Conductors usually tend to resolve an irregularity by simply selling a new ticket, but it is down to their discretion whether they do this or take your details so that you can be prosecuted.

Having had your details taken, it's no longer possible for you to be retrospectively issued with a Penalty Fare and accordingly you can only be prosecuted, with the possibility (at Northern's discretion) of being offered an out of Court settlement.

Unfortunately there is no "technically" about it - you didn't have a valid ticket, and that's an offence under the Railway Byelaws. And this is what can happen as a result.

It was a revenue protection staff member though they said that

 

[Watershed]

It was a revenue protection staff member though they said that

Ok, well revenue protection staff also have discretion as to whether to issue a Penalty Fare or take details for prosecution. Ultimately it's not something you can decide, it's down to Northern and their staff how they handle it.

It's possible that, having presented an invalid and expired ticket, they thought you were 'trying it on'.

 

[jabjab999]

Ok, well revenue protection staff also have discretion as to whether to issue a Penalty Fare or take details for prosecution. Ultimately it's not something you can decide, it's down to Northern and their staff how they handle it.

It's possible that, having presented an invalid and expired ticket, they thought you were 'trying it on'.

Is there any likely hood that I'd be able to complain and just pay the £20 fine or when it's set is it set?

 

[Watershed]

Is there any likely hood that I'd be able to complain and just pay the £20 fine or when it's set is it set?

Complaining won't get you anywhere; whilst this is certainly unfair and a poor customer experience, Northern really don't care. And in any event, you can't be retrospectively issued with a Penalty Fare.

If you get an out of Court settlement offer, it's a take it or leave it matter. And it's strongly in your interests to take it.

 

[jabjab999]

I have seen this error before. I think : although this is only my own conjecture and not based on any factual source : that the error message appears in situations where the ticket cannot be amended : such as this situation, where the time of the advance ticket has passed and therefore cannot be amended. I think it should produce a message explaining that the ticket cannot be amended, but instead produces this error message.

As the terms of the ticket state that they can only be amended up until the departure time of the train on the original ticket, and these terms have been agreed to by the purchaser as part of the purchase process, i think settling would be the best course of action.

I wonder if the "change journey" option remained visible if there was another advance single still eligible to be changed in the same booking?

I spend a lot of my time at work advising customers against these silly 'short distance' advances. A change of plan on a normal day can render the ticket invalid, or worse. Given the single tickets are £4 - £5.20 each way, and the day return is £10, the benefit of complete flexibility is easily worth it.

There had been a previous advanced single on the same booking but none after so I see no valid reason why that option would remain visible

 

[WesternLancer]

Is there any likely hood that I'd be able to complain and just pay the £20 fine or when it's set is it set?

almost certainly zero likelihood I'm afraid, as per explanations from various posts.

All you can do now is wait for the letter form them and state your case in reply - they may settle for less than the sum people are suggesting (but that is based on experience of various posts in the thread including ones very similar to your own situation). Basically there is no obligation on the railway to issue a Penalty Fare so they can and do often issue other types of notices - sadly they sometimes do this whilst 'suggesting'/implying to the passenger that 'things will be OK and you will get a letter asking for payment and it will be easy to sort out' or some such phrase.

Best thing now is to wait until you get that letter (assume you gave them your postal address correctly?) and head back here for advice on what to say in reply.

So do not ignore any post you get in the next weeks or months, and make arrangements to get you post if you move address - this is because if you do not get and respond to their letter ASAP it will escalate to court action for fare evasion without you knowing and that will take much more hassle to sort out as you would almost certainly be found guilty, which can result in a criminal record.

Sorry not to post better news....!

 

[Runningaround]

Where do passengers stand when the apps crash? I've had this happen to me while changing at New St and Cross Country's app went all daft by showing a ticket that I'd never bought, for a journey I've never made and the ticket was 3 years old on a route that nobody would use Cross Country trains for.
Thankfully the barrier staff let me through and the train journey was long enough to uninstall the app, re-install it on the slow and inconsistent Wi-Fi on board (took about 45mins - 1 hour). If the guard had been prompt and awkward, he could have charged me for a new ticket, but I would have been able to show a bank transaction showing it had been bought and an email confirmation.

 

[island]

Where do passengers stand when the apps crash? I've had this happen to me while changing at New St and Cross Country's app went all daft by showing a ticket that I'd never bought, for a journey I've never made and the ticket was 3 years old on a route that nobody would use Cross Country trains for.
Thankfully the barrier staff let me through and the train journey was long enough to uninstall the app, re-install it on the slow and inconsistent Wi-Fi on board (took about 45mins - 1 hour). If the guard had been prompt and awkward, he could have charged me for a new ticket, but I would have been able to show a bank transaction showing it had been bought and an email confirmation.

Ultimately if you are unable to show a ticket you run the risk of being dealt with as such. Failing to show a ticket when asked is a strict liability offence.

I would hope that where a train company was at fault some discretion might be shown, but as threads all over the forum demonstrate, train companies are not always great at this…

 

[jamiearmley]

Where do passengers stand when the apps crash? I've had this happen to me while changing at New St and Cross Country's app went all daft by showing a ticket that I'd never bought, for a journey I've never made and the ticket was 3 years old on a route that nobody would use Cross Country trains for.
Thankfully the barrier staff let me through and the train journey was long enough to uninstall the app, re-install it on the slow and inconsistent Wi-Fi on board (took about 45mins - 1 hour). If the guard had been prompt and awkward, he could have charged me for a new ticket, but I would have been able to show a bank transaction showing it had been bought and an email confirmation.

Most times there's two emails : one a booking confirmation and one with your e tickets. I normally get passengers to look in their email at the etickets if the app isn't working. Pretty much always resolves things, and gives the passenger confidence they can sort the issue should it arise again.
The only 2 occasions this didn't resolve the issue turned out to be the passenger lying, fairly blatantly as well. One, as the situation evolved, was found to be wanted by the police. All good fun.

Don't worry too much. Explore your emails you get when buying app tickets, get comfy with them, be confident in their use. Know also that a bank transaction, and a booking confirmation email mean little and less.

 

[Watershed]

Where do passengers stand when the apps crash? I've had this happen to me while changing at New St and Cross Country's app went all daft by showing a ticket that I'd never bought, for a journey I've never made and the ticket was 3 years old on a route that nobody would use Cross Country trains for.
Thankfully the barrier staff let me through and the train journey was long enough to uninstall the app, re-install it on the slow and inconsistent Wi-Fi on board (took about 45mins - 1 hour). If the guard had been prompt and awkward, he could have charged me for a new ticket, but I would have been able to show a bank transaction showing it had been bought and an email confirmation.

Because of the strict liability nature of Byelaw 18, they are still committing an offence even if the reason they're unable to produce a ticket is down to the train company.

In the event the TOC prosecuted the passenger, the passenger could apply for the proceedings to be stayed as an abuse of process. But there is no guarantee that a stay would be granted.

This is one of many reasons why it's wholly wrong for there to be a strict liability ticketing offence, as well as for TOCs to be able to prosecute without a public interest test being conducted.

 

[Adam Williams]

ERR_NAME_NOT_RESOLVED is normally indicative of network connectivity issues, rather than an issue at the service provider's end (although the latter isn't impossible).

Having looked into this, the link in the "Please call our customer service team" goes to a resource under "help.northernrailway.co.uk" which is NXDOMAIN (DNS record not set up by provider, not a network problem), so this specific error is likely Trainline or the TOC's fault.

It doesn't materially change the advice that has been given here though. I think the system is working correctly to prevent change of advance after the departure of the service... this is just a problem with the error flow the user is presented with. The "contact customer services" flow outside of the amend ticket process does work.

 

[Runningaround]

Most times there's two emails : one a booking confirmation and one with your e tickets. I normally get passengers to look in their email at the etickets if the app isn't working. Pretty much always resolves things, and gives the passenger confidence they can sort the issue should it arise again.
The only 2 occasions this didn't resolve the issue turned out to be the passenger lying, fairly blatantly as well. One, as the situation evolved, was found to be wanted by the police. All good fun.

Don't worry too much. Explore your emails you get when buying app tickets, get comfy with them, be confident in their use. Know also that a bank transaction, and a booking confirmation email mean little and less.

I think at the time my tickets were M-Tickets and didn't have a QR Code on the email and wasn't sure which email address I'd used to purchase them and even then, the WI-FI on the train was so poor it was taking ages just to reset the app by downloading it, having to change passwords etc, and then finding confirmation emails. (it took a good hour). If the guard was prompt and awkward, I'd have to ask for time to get things working again or show him the transaction. If he'd had been an a*** and expected another payment for a ticket at full price in these situations the passenger needs to be allowed to show some proof of purchase (such as email or transaction to the TOC).

I did go to the ticket office for help, and they couldn't help within the connection time. Most staff including the barrier ones at New Street looked as if was a common occurrence.