Northern Rail could be re-nationalised

[Bletchleyite]

The new franchise operation now sees gritting as not required. For the second time this autumn the timber platform I used this morning was like an ice rink. No sign of anyone visting to grit, which wasn't the case under the previous franchise. First sign of cold weather and the access path and platfom were gritted.

How much would it cost Northern if someone fell between platform and train?

I've come across (and gone flying along) dangerously icey platforms on other stations run by other TOCs, I've never entirely been sure why this seems to be tolerated in the way it is - it poses a massive risk of someone falling under a train - far more risk than something like failed lighting which usually results in closure (particularly given that everyone with a mobile phone in their pocket, which is almost everyone, also has a torch).

 

[Dr Hoo]

There was certainly regular gritting at Hope Valley stations (by contractors) under the current franchise last winter.
Can anyone who works for Northern positively confirm that contacts have been allowed to lapse / cancelled/ whatever?

 

[Sleeperwaking]

Yeah, I get that (actually makes sense in the circumstances to do that, I guess), but you have to wonder how much extra time and effort it would have been to stick the Northern/Arriva vinyl logos on them. I mean, otherwise the exterior refurb is completely done. Just feels like an odd thing to miss out in the name of time saving unless it's a precursor to branding them with something else.

Depends how many units are still waiting for PRM refurbs - noting that we have 8 weeks before the next major timetable change, which will be dependent on a minimum quantity of units being available, so perhaps having an extra 3 units by shaving 1/2 a day on each PRM refurb could have a big impact? You can apply vinyls / new seat cushions in a normal depot environment, so maybe they'll be sorted out in house over the next few weeks.

 

[158756]

There was certainly regular gritting at Hope Valley stations (by contractors) under the current franchise last winter.
Can anyone who works for Northern positively confirm that contacts have been allowed to lapse / cancelled/ whatever?

It's also possible the contracts still exist, but don't apply on mornings in the middle of October when the temperature isn't close to freezing in the major towns.

 

[option]

Particularly for city commuter networks, it seems that direct public ownership (London Underground) or concessions (Merseyrail, T&W Metro, Overground, TfL rail, pretty much all light rail) are reasonably successful arrangements. I don't think a merger with Transpennine would be a good idea; management focus would inevitably fall on the premier routes to the detriment of others. Governance arrangements also need to be simplified with full decision making and budget holding at regional or city-region level.

They also either operate the infrastructure, or have a good & close relationship with Network Rail.

Similar is happening in Wales, & WMR is trending that way, just without control of the infrastructure.

Trying to do similar in the whole of 'The North' simply wouldn't work, there's too many local authorities involved, & too disparate an area (it's not London).
So, anything that's obviously 'local' should be devolved down to multiple local operations, & what's left gets merged into TPE. eg. Newcastle-Carlisle goes to TPE, they already have services at both ends. Some TPE stops go to new local services, eg. a new local service York-Scarborough picks up the current TPE station stops.

 

[Djgr]

They also either operate the infrastructure, or have a good & close relationship with Network Rail.

Similar is happening in Wales, & WMR is trending that way, just without control of the infrastructure.

Trying to do similar in the whole of 'The North' simply wouldn't work, there's too many local authorities involved, & too disparate an area (it's not London).
So, anything that's obviously 'local' should be devolved down to multiple local operations, & what's left gets merged into TPE. eg. Newcastle-Carlisle goes to TPE, they already have services at both ends. Some TPE stops go to new local services, eg. a new local service York-Scarborough picks up the current TPE station stops.

I don't think people within the M25 realise how far it is from say Liverpool to Newcastle. I remember some doofus telling me to use the bank branch in Newcastle because the one in Liverpool had been closed!

 

[Llama]

Re. gritting, it was comedic earlier in the year when platforms were being gritted in the spring when the weather was such that frost wasn't conceivable.

The contractor doing the gritting was effectively a bloke in a 4x4, I can't remember the company name.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

For me the fact that Northern got 30 year-old 319's following the Liverpool - Manchester electrification (whilst Southern got new trains), tells you everything you need to know about how the country is viewed from Westminster.

All the hot-air spoken about climate change is bullcarp as well whilst vast swathes of northern lines have no OLE.

Its not the trains per say, the 319s have proven to be a good replacement to that which came before, however they do present themselves as a good illustration of the lack of actual investment in the network that is Northern.

I’m in favour of renationalising Northern as it would finally quash the myth that nationalisation is the solution to all the network’s problems.

Under an operator of last resort I imagine we will have all the same issues as we do now under Arriva

There will be the same network congestion, the same number and quality of rolling stock, the same number of staff and the same contracts those staff operate under, the same infrastructure problems, the same fares...

According to post made by Corbyn last night on Facebook he doesnt actually intend on a full renationalisation of the network, the ROSCOs will still own the trains.

The problems began with the franchise itself. Far too much to introduce in too short a time. Here is a few issues.

1) The old Arriva trains North, and First North Western, should never have been merged. It has made harmonisation impossible, it has led the organised chaos on the west side, and now they have dragged in parts of Transpennine.

2) Trying to introduce DOO when they didn't even have a train capable of it.

3) Replacing well oiled railway staff with people who have no idea of railway issues.

4) Leasing 331 and 195 units, rushing the orders because of unrealistic demands on the pacer demise timetable. The 331's and 195 are a utter disaster to be quite frank. Riddled with problems, unreliable, over reliant on software.

Grayling started all this, He's the culprit.

Yes.
Its the sheer scale of Northern that is its problem.
So much stock to manage over so many routes is a recipe for failure, which is a government issue for allowing it to happen.
Sure they're not prefect and there are a lot of problems they are responsible for but the vast majority its not really their fault.
The other night a friend of mine was trying to get home...
St Helens way to Liverpool South which is a two train journey. The train was cancelled en route which anoyed a lot of people as it gave a much longer wait. And why did Northern feel the need to cancel a service that is currently running?
When you answer that you will be on the real path to knowing what the real problem with Northern is, and its not until you consider problems like this willl you understand who needs to step in to help and what kind of help can be given as help is clearly needed now because there is no more "good will" left in anybody who uses the services.

I'm astonished by the number of people on here who think Northern can do no wrong and that Northern are the wronged party!

Two scenarios. I would like your answer...

As a passenger I turn up on the platform just in time to catch a train between Liverpool South and Lime street, its gone 18:00 and not a normal trip for me but, I jump on and its crammed full of people. Its a class 156 so its layout isnt really commuter friendly which makes the situation worse.

The reason
The TOC has a 2 car train on a trip that clearly requires a longer train.

The actual reason
The train was delayed the other side of Manchester, the TPE train before that had similar problems. People who would normally catch that TPE train from Manchester to Liverpool ended up on a later service layed on by Northern so by the time the Northern service got to LPY it was over capacity for what they had expected their 2 car train to take.

Whos fault is that... Northern for not expecting problems, TPE for the same reason but with a better public image they can shrug off problems or NR for the signalling probems the other side of Manchester...

Me as a passenger I dont really care, I blame Northern and slag them off for all Im worth.

 

[underbank]

I don't think people within the M25 realise how far it is from say Liverpool to Newcastle. I remember some doofus telling me to use the bank branch in Newcastle because the one in Liverpool had been closed!

I had the same with the NHS when they did the "choose and book" for hospital appointments. I was given the "choice" of Preston or Newcastle, despite living in Lancaster! So much for "choice" - still it will have ticked someone's boxes (no doubt living and working in London where they do have viable choice between different hospitals!)

 

[Grumpy Git]

I had the same with the NHS when they did the "choose and book" for hospital appointments. I was given the "choice" of Preston or Newcastle, despite living in Lancaster! So much for "choice" - still it will have ticked someone's boxes (no doubt living and working in London where they do have viable choice between different hospitals!)

.................... and a vastly superior public transport network with which to get to them. I recently took my elderly mother to visit someone in the Northern General in Sheffield (by car, she lives in the sticks). It took me 50 minutes to find a car parking space, so visiting time was almost over when we got to the ward.

 

[Djgr]

Its not the trains per say, the 319s have proven to be a good replacement to that which came before, however they do present themselves as a good illustration of the lack of actual investment in the network that is Northern.



According to post made by Corbyn last night on Facebook he doesnt actually intend on a full renationalisation of the network, the ROSCOs will still own the trains.



Yes.
Its the sheer scale of Northern that is its problem.
So much stock to manage over so many routes is a recipe for failure, which is a government issue for allowing it to happen.
Sure they're not prefect and there are a lot of problems they are responsible for but the vast majority its not really their fault.
The other night a friend of mine was trying to get home...
St Helens way to Liverpool South which is a two train journey. The train was cancelled en route which anoyed a lot of people as it gave a much longer wait. And why did Northern feel the need to cancel a service that is currently running?
When you answer that you will be on the real path to knowing what the real problem with Northern is, and its not until you consider problems like this willl you understand who needs to step in to help and what kind of help can be given as help is clearly needed now because there is no more "good will" left in anybody who uses the services.




Two scenarios. I would like your answer...

As a passenger I turn up on the platform just in time to catch a train between Liverpool South and Lime street, its gone 18:00 and not a normal trip for me but, I jump on and its crammed full of people. Its a class 156 so its layout isnt really commuter friendly which makes the situation worse.

The reason
The TOC has a 2 car train on a trip that clearly requires a longer train.

The actual reason
The train was delayed the other side of Manchester, the TPE train before that had similar problems. People who would normally catch that TPE train from Manchester to Liverpool ended up on a later service layed on by Northern so by the time the Northern service got to LPY it was over capacity for what they had expected their 2 car train to take.

Whos fault is that... Northern for not expecting problems, TPE for the same reason but with a better public image they can shrug off problems or NR for the signalling probems the other side of Manchester...

Me as a passenger I dont really care, I blame Northern and slag them off for all Im worth.

Well Liverpool South Parkway to central Liverpool I would always go via Merseyrail for obvious reasons!

Nobody says that Northern is the only party to blame. But unfortunately virtually everything that Northern DOES do is shoddy and half baked.

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Well Liverpool South Parkway to central Liverpool I would always go via Merseyrail for obvious reasons!

Nobody says that Northern is the only party to blame. But unfortunately virtually everything that Northern DOES do is shoddy and half baked.

How about when its the same situation from say Lea Green and you want to get home to Liverpool South... Cant use the Merseyrail then and your ticket isnt valid on the bus.

My point is its not always the fault of Northern but Northern always take the blame because they are the ones there at the time.

The actual problem was that TPEs train wasnt long enough, they were full already by the time they got to Manchester and could only fit a handful of rush hour people on, so it was left for Northern to pick up the slack which they wernt ready for because they thought TPW would provide the service and take most of the passengers.

Thats one of the reasons TPE have invested in the new stock, but they are wonderful and Northern are not.

The situation isnt always as it seems, and another TOC wont be able to make it work either, because there is no magic wand waving to remove all the problems that Northern pick up.

 

[Djgr]

How about when its the same situation from say Lea Green and you want to get home to Liverpool South... Cant use the Merseyrail then and your ticket isnt valid on the bus.

My point is its not always the fault of Northern but Northern always take the blame because they are the ones there at the time.

The actual problem was that TPEs train wasnt long enough, they were full already by the time they got to Manchester and could only fit a handful of rush hour people on, so it was left for Northern to pick up the slack which they wernt ready for because they thought TPW would provide the service and take most of the passengers.

Thats one of the reasons TPE have invested in the new stock, but they are wonderful and Northern are not.

The situation isnt always as it seems, and another TOC wont be able to make it work either, because there is no magic wand waving to remove all the problems that Northern pick up.

Indeed, and as I said Northern are not always to blame but the unfortunate reality is that often they are. Like I said above Northern and their (paid?) fanclub love to pass the buck.

 

[thejuggler]

It's also possible the contracts still exist, but don't apply on mornings in the middle of October when the temperature isn't close to freezing in the major towns.

Depends how you define close, but it was about 4 degrees last night in a very urban area.

No evidence of frost on my trip to the station, or in the car park. The issue is the timber decked platforms. With cold air above and below there is no ground heat effect and they are white over.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends how you define close, but it was about 4 degrees last night in a very urban area.

No evidence of frost on my trip to the station, or in the car park. The issue is the timber decked platforms. With cold air above and below there is no ground heat effect and they are white over.

Though if they're rough enough in terms of surfacing that is no great issue. The big issue I find with them is that because they're only supported in some places they typically bow and water collects, which then freezes and creates an ice rink. It would be better if they were porous then the water could drain away.

 

[Darandio]

Indeed, and as I said Northern are not always to blame but the unfortunate reality is that often they are. Like I said above Northern and their (paid?) fanclub love to pass the buck.

Are you suggesting that there are people here that are paid to say positive things about them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you suggesting that there are people here that are paid to say positive things about them?

I don't know about here, but their marketing department presumably are, and I'd imagine it's in their staff's contracts at least not to bad-mouth them in public as it is in most contracts of employment.

 

[js1000]

Some of the comments are not surprising but eye-opening. Even the basics Northern are failing at. Gritting platforms. Ridiculous ticket machine interfaces. Penalty fares. It's not just the over-ambitious and flawed timetable. Personally do not see any point at all in a 'direct award' with Arriva that is being talked about which appears to be on a short term basis with the government taking all of the risk but the same personnel and problems present. It would be a worse arrangement than we currently have now and solve nothing. Rather than terminating the franchise which both parties will not want to do otherwise they will incur charges government would be better coming to a mutual agreement with Arriva to end the franchise and get a consortium to run it on a not for profit basis like LNER and potentially some more power to integrate services with other bodies (Network Rail and TPE) in regards to flawed timetabling.

 

[Starmill]

Rather than terminating the franchise which both parties will not want to do otherwise they will incur charges government would be better coming to a mutual agreement with Arriva to end the franchise and get a consortium to run it on a not for profit basis like LNER and potentially some more power to integrate services with other bodies (Network Rail and TPE) in regards to flawed timetabling.

LNER is operated by a group of consultancy firms appointed by the Department and paid fees for their services by DfT, who then retain the control over decision making at the highest level. It seems that this model is also now the one proposed for Northern, known as 'Operator of Last Resort'. It may well be that Southeastern comes to be operated in this way also when their current extension expires.

In my view, it's just an admission that the business is 'un-franchiseable' in that the DfT cannot, for market reasons, run a competition for it. This is not surprising given the way DfT have acted, and the way they write their tenders. CrossCountry is also quite likely to fall into this category at some point in the future. They are however too scared, for political reasons, to go back to creating an arms-length government owned company run by civil servants or specially hired staff for the shell company. It seems that they have started to use the word 'nationalise' again, though, so who knows!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

LNER is operated by a group of consultancy firms appointed by the Department and paid fees for their services by DfT, who then retain the control over decision making at the highest level. It seems that this model is also now the one proposed for Northern, known as 'Operator of Last Resort'. It may well be that Southeastern comes to be operated in this way also when their current extension expires.

I would guess that the Northern franchise direct award (to either OBR or Arriva) will be the same animal - a management contract will all risk/major decisions taken by DfT and/or TfN.
At the end of the day the Arriva management team is just a bunch of consultants, who just happen to work for the same firm.
The trouble if Arriva gets this direct award is that the passengers wouldn't know that anything has changed.

 

[js1000]

I would guess that the Northern franchise direct award (to either OBR or Arriva) will be the same animal - a management contract will all risk/major decisions taken by DfT and/or TfN.
At the end of the day the Arriva management team is just a bunch of consultants, who just happen to work for the same firm. The trouble if Arriva gets this direct award is that the passengers wouldn't know that anything has changed.

'Direct award' ought to be 'special measures'

 

[ElectroSoldier]

Indeed, and as I said Northern are not always to blame but the unfortunate reality is that often they are. Like I said above Northern and their (paid?) fanclub love to pass the buck.

Some of the comments are not surprising but eye-opening. Even the basics Northern are failing at. Gritting platforms. Ridiculous ticket machine interfaces. Penalty fares. It's not just the over-ambitious and flawed timetable. Personally do not see any point at all in a 'direct award' with Arriva that is being talked about which appears to be on a short term basis with the government taking all of the risk but the same personnel and problems present. It would be a worse arrangement than we currently have now and solve nothing. Rather than terminating the franchise which both parties will not want to do otherwise they will incur charges government would be better coming to a mutual agreement with Arriva to end the franchise and get a consortium to run it on a not for profit basis like LNER and potentially some more power to integrate services with other bodies (Network Rail and TPE) in regards to flawed timetabling.

Now these groans about them I can understand and agree with.
The state of the platforms you can see the smaller station are ignored by them, its only the larger stations that get a look in maintenance wise.
A ticket machine is a ticket machine, I hate them all. I prefer to keep people in work myself.

The timetable was over-ambitious because it relied on so many other factors outside of their company to make it work, they failed at that for sure.

Arriva are no different to Northern. Changing the name will not remove the reasons for the problems that franchise keeps having.

 

[td97]

Earlier in the year, perhaps May, there was a 4-5 week period with a reasonably stable Sunday service, brought about by a temporary rest day working agreement.
Can anyone advise whether any further extension of this is in the pipeline?

 

[Gems]

Earlier in the year, perhaps May, there was a 4-5 week period with a reasonably stable Sunday service, brought about by a temporary rest day working agreement.
Can anyone advise whether any further extension of this is in the pipeline?

The agreement I believe was this. Drivers were paid 11 hours at Sunday overtime rate no matter how long their diagram was. (I could be a little out on the hours though, but it was around that figure) It was a sweetner when Northern thought they could get the harmonisation through. When it was voted down, the agreement stopped.

Not aware of any plans to bring this back.

A lot of the problems though are not because drivers won't work Sundays. Apart from Liverpool where they are about as militant as you can get, most depots could cover Sundays. But the problem is this.
West side rosters will only accept applications to cover uncovered shifts in writing. So if the Sunday sheet goes up on a Wednesday evening, a driver sees it uncovered and thinks. "I'll do that" He has to get a letter to rosters by Friday afternoon. If the job is still uncovered by Friday night, it's uncovered, end of. It's a system failure is much of it, and nobody seems to be able to change it. I mean, carrier pigeon would be more efficient.

Said it before, the franchises should never have been merged. The west side is dragging down the east.

 

[Bletchleyite]

West side rosters will only accept applications to cover uncovered shifts in writing. So if the Sunday sheet goes up on a Wednesday evening, a driver sees it uncovered and thinks. "I'll do that" He has to get a letter to rosters by Friday afternoon. It's a system failure is much of it, and nobody seems to be able to change it. I mean, carrier pigeon would be more efficient.

!!

Why not e-mail? I can see them wanting something formal so there's less chance of them pulling out, but what year is it again?

 

[Gems]

!!

Why not e-mail? I can see them wanting something formal so there's less chance of them pulling out, but what year is it again?

Because the email has to come from a Northern electronic device, drivers are not issued with phones or Tablets. I don't think they are issued with a Northern internal email addy either. Now guards. I could cover a Sunday by speaking to TCS on a Saturday night if needed. It's all nonsense and must be very hard for the outsider to fathom.

 

[quantinghome]

Said it before, the franchises should never have been merged. The west side is dragging down the east.

If the merger was the problem, why have major problems only emerged since 2016, rather than in 2004 when the merger happened?

 

[modernrail]

The agreement I believe was this. Drivers were paid 11 hours at Sunday overtime rate no matter how long their diagram was. (I could be a little out on the hours though, but it was around that figure) It was a sweetner when Northern thought they could get the harmonisation through. When it was voted down, the agreement stopped.

Not aware of any plans to bring this back.

A lot of the problems though are not because drivers won't work Sundays. Apart from Liverpool where they are about as militant as you can get, most depots could cover Sundays. But the problem is this.
West side rosters will only accept applications to cover uncovered shifts in writing. So if the Sunday sheet goes up on a Wednesday evening, a driver sees it uncovered and thinks. "I'll do that" He has to get a letter to rosters by Friday afternoon. If the job is still uncovered by Friday night, it's uncovered, end of. It's a system failure is much of it, and nobody seems to be able to change it. I mean, carrier pigeon would be more efficient.

Said it before, the franchises should never have been merged. The west side is dragging down the east.

To find out that this is a contributory factor to travel chaos on Sundays on Northern land is an absolute joke. I am firmly of the view that Sundays being volunteer led is ridiculous, because it is. However, to find out that the system could probably run a whole lot more efficiently until the relevant negotiations are complete is a disgrace. What is wrong with people?? The words pull, finger and out spring to mind...with optional additional words at the end.

 

[Gems]

To find out that this is a contributory factor to travel chaos on Sundays on Northern land is an absolute joke. I am firmly of the view that Sundays being volunteer led is ridiculous, because it is. However, to find out that the system could probably run a whole lot more efficiently until the relevant negotiations are complete is a disgrace. What is wrong with people?? The words pull, finger and out spring to mind...with optional additional words at the end.

There is a lot people don't know about what goes on. But here is the punchline to all this chaos. Whilst Northernrail insist on throwing money at drivers no matter what, ASLEF will have the whip hand.
If anyone thinks as well that the RMT dispute was of the similar vane, RMT were proved right, these new trains would really struggle to operate in DCO or DOO mode.

 

[Llama]

West side rosters will only accept applications to cover uncovered shifts in writing. So if the Sunday sheet goes up on a Wednesday evening, a driver sees it uncovered and thinks. "I'll do that" He has to get a letter to rosters by Friday afternoon. If the job is still uncovered by Friday night, it's uncovered, end of. It's a system failure is much of it, and nobody seems to be able to change it. I mean, carrier pigeon would be more efficient.

Said it before, the franchises should never have been merged. The west side is dragging down the east.

That's not right, drivers don't need to send a letter to cover an uncovered Sunday, for years now only drivers who were unavailable to work but subsequently made themselves available will usually find themselves in such a situation and a simple phone call will do, either from RPC or to RPC, any time before Sunday. If my plans changed and I wanted to work on a Sunday I could actually just ring the signing on point and would be able to arrange to come in. Sunday's roster isn't touched on Friday - it gets revisited and reposted twice on Saturday. It is normal to get phone calls on a Saturday afternoon asking if drivers want to come in or want to swap to a different job.