Northern Rail Fraud Email

[billphone]

Hello all,

I am sorry if this has been covered before but I was hoping to query something with your good selves that I received from Northern Rail.

The other day I received an e-mail (no letter) claiming:

"Northern Trains Ltd (NTL) has found that you have been travelling on our trains without a
valid ticket. You have also been purchasing tickets which do not appear to cover your full
journey."

There are no other details. It then says I can provide evidence against this and arrange an interview. First thought was scam but I rang the automated fine phone number on the Norther Rail website and it did confirm that I in fact now owe a seemingly arbitrary figure of £130.80 plus £50 "costs". There is also a section requesting all my details: address, telephone number, occupation (!) etc etc
Perhaps in error, I replied expressing outrage and concern and asking for details of said crimes. Their response was to ask for my home address going back to July 2022 so they could add further context.

Further context and full disclosure:

* I am quite forgetful and sometimes dont buy a ticket and if the conductor doesnt come round I end up buying a ticket on my phone. You used to be able to just queue up on the platform and buy one off a conductor there but apparently that's a crime now.

Is this something they might be trying to get me for? Do their turnstile scanners see that now and again I have bought a ticket and then immediately scanned it? Seems harsh if so and I was unaware they had such big brother-esque surveillance powers.
My mother lives on a different stop on the same line as me so sometimes I will get tickets from there into town. Also sometimes I walk to different stops on the line for excercise and then get on the train there. Again, is this something that may have been flagged and seen as fare evasion especially combined with the occasions when i have forgotten to buy a ticket or have been in a rush and just jumped on the train?
I did get stopped by a revenue officer for this about a year ago. I got off the train, realised i didnt have a ticket, bought one and then proceeded to the gate. I was stopped and they took all my details ( including my home address which they no longer seem to have ). Despite my protestations I was processed and expected to receive a fine, instead a I received a letter clearing me of any wrongdoing. It is worth adding that since this happened, I have been a lot more fastidious with buying tickets before I get on the train.

* The only other thing I can think of is because I work varying hours ( I run a business in town); sometimes I purchase an off peak ticket when travelling out at say 10 am, if I'm done by 5.30 sometimes I hop on a peak train. Again, could they have flagged that I have scanned an off peak ticket at a peak time? How would they know I actually got on the train and not just waited on platform? Or could they see that a conductor has scanned my off peak ticket on a peak train? If that's the case then why hasn't the conductor flagged it and made me buy a new ticket?

Anyway, that is my situation. I've seen some people say ignore it, I've seen people say go to the interview and reply "no comment", I've had people say get legal advice. Part of me would rather pay the fine than go through the whole rigmarole of going to court and potentially losing and it costing me more money, but another part of me is fuming as I've spent so much money on Northern Trains for the last 15 years. It all seems like a bit of a tenuous stab in the dark to me, or am I wrong and am I essentially screwed? Does anybody have any advice?

Thank you kindly, in advance.

 

[Haywain]

You used to be able to just queue up on the platform and buy one off a conductor there but apparently that's a crime now.

It's not a crime to buy a ticket but it is a crime to board a train without first buying a ticket where ticket retailing facilities are available.

Reading your post, it sounds as though you are regularly avoiding (intentionally or otherwise) paying the correct fare. It is likely that your ticket buying records and the scan records both highlight unusual pattersn of buying and using tickets. As you note, our normal advice is not to respond but you have already failed to heed that advice and, in the circumstances, it might be better for your peace of mind to simply pay the amount requested and close the matter. Going forward, you need to drastically improve your ticket buying and usage habits.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Some points that jump out to me, we have started seeing these types of letters quite frequently.

- NTL only mention the Fraud Act 2006. This may be because they are aware that all 'offences' they think they have evidence for are > 6 months in the past and so cannot be prosecuted under the railway byelaws or RoRA 1889 (these account for >99.9% of prosecutions). Fraud Act offences (being much more serious and triable in a crown court) have a much longer statute of limitations
- It is vanishingly unlikely that NTL would prosecute you under the Fraud Act
- It is somewhat more likely that they would make a civil claim against you in the county court. We rarely see this although train company practices are constantly evolving.
- They are interested in getting some money out of you immediately, but also potentially getting you to incriminate yourself further by attending an interview, providing further personal details etc. This seems a strange approach and may just be to intimidate you into paying up. If you did provide further details, this could end up with a large settlement offer for the many instances of not having a valid ticket (due to buying late). They also suspect you have been short faring, you will know what a full trawl of your trainline account may uncover. We have seen these settlements run into thousands of pounds quite regularly when years of incidents are being totted up.

You really have three options, each with pros and cons:

- Pay the amount demanded (and hope this really is the 'end of the matter', although it is not clear to me that this would be a full a final settlement for ALL alleged historic incidents). There may be a way to offer the settlement to ensure this is the case.
- Write back asking for details of what journeys they think are suspicious
- Ignore completely

I would strongly recommend not attending an interview, and not providing further personal information. There seems no benefit to you in doing so.

 

[billphone]

Some points that jump out to me, we have started seeing these types of letters quite frequently.

- NTL only mention the Fraud Act 2006. This may be because they are aware that all 'offences' they think they have evidence for are > 6 months in the past and so cannot be prosecuted under the railway byelaws or RoRA 1889 (these account for >99.9% of prosecutions). Fraud Act offences (being much more serious and triable in a crown court) have a much longer statute of limitations
- It is vanishingly unlikely that NTL would prosecute you under the Fraud Act
- It is somewhat more likely that they would make a civil claim against you in the county court. We rarely see this although train company practices are constantly evolving.
- They are interested in getting some money out of you immediately, but also potentially getting you to incriminate yourself further by attending an interview, providing further personal details etc. This seems a strange approach and may just be to intimidate you into paying up. If you did provide further details, this could end up with a large settlement offer for the many instances of not having a valid ticket (due to buying late). They also suspect you have been short faring, you will know what a full trawl of your trainline account may uncover. We have seen these settlements run into thousands of pounds quite regularly when years of incidents are being totted up.

You really have three options, each with pros and cons:

- Pay the amount demanded (and hope this really is the 'end of the matter', although it is not clear to me that this would be a full a final settlement for ALL alleged historic incidents). There may be a way to offer the settlement to ensure this is the case.
- Write back asking for details of what journeys they think are suspicious
- Ignore completely

I would strongly recommend not attending an interview, and not providing further personal information. There seems no benefit to you in doing so.

Hello,

I did write back asking for details of what I had done wrong, their response was:

"Could you please provide your current address, as well as any other addresses where you have lived from July 2022 to date? This information will assist us in offering clearer context regarding our investigation."

So they wont even tell me what I have done without my address.

Thanks.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Hello,

I did write back asking for details of what I had done wrong, their response was:

"Could you please provide your current address, as well as any other addresses where you have lived from July 2022 to date? This information will assist us in offering clearer context regarding our investigation."

So they wont even tell me what I have done without my address.

Thanks.

My reading of that is they’re looking for instances of you short faring and they want to know where you lived and when so they can match addresses to local stations, then find purchases that look different.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Hello,

I did write back asking for details of what I had done wrong, their response was:

"Could you please provide your current address, as well as any other addresses where you have lived from July 2022 to date? This information will assist us in offering clearer context regarding our investigation."

So they wont even tell me what I have done without my address.

Thanks.

Got you, I missed that. We haven’t seen many of these through to conclusion as this style of letter seems quite new so it is difficult to make firm recommendations.

Given what you have said I would lean towards paying what they have asked for which seems quite modest if there are a lot of questionable journeys on your trainline account but I would want some assurance that really was ‘the end of the matter’ in case they are seeing this as an interim payment and they are going to come back again for another bite.

I would hold off doing anything for now to see what other members think.

 

[enyoueffsea]

I’d suggest not responding to them with any of the below, which is quite clearly nonsense excuses as to why you regularly evade fares. Northern will not believe a word of it and you’ll be incriminating yourself.

I won’t tear the below apart line by line, but you should probably realise just how unbelievable it all is.

Further context and full disclosure:

* I am quite forgetful and sometimes dont buy a ticket and if the conductor doesnt come round I end up buying a ticket on my phone. You used to be able to just queue up on the platform and buy one off a conductor there but apparently that's a crime now.

Is this something they might be trying to get me for? Do their turnstile scanners see that now and again I have bought a ticket and then immediately scanned it? Seems harsh if so and I was unaware they had such big brother-esque surveillance powers.
My mother lives on a different stop on the same line as me so sometimes I will get tickets from there into town. Also sometimes I walk to different stops on the line for excercise and then get on the train there. Again, is this something that may have been flagged and seen as fare evasion especially combined with the occasions when i have forgotten to buy a ticket or have been in a rush and just jumped on the train?
I did get stopped by a revenue officer for this about a year ago. I got off the train, realised i didnt have a ticket, bought one and then proceeded to the gate. I was stopped and they took all my details ( including my home address which they no longer seem to have ). Despite my protestations I was processed and expected to receive a fine, instead a I received a letter clearing me of any wrongdoing. It is worth adding that since this happened, I have been a lot more fastidious with buying tickets before I get on the train.

* The only other thing I can think of is because I work varying hours ( I run a business in town); sometimes I purchase an off peak ticket when travelling out at say 10 am, if I'm done by 5.30 sometimes I hop on a peak train. Again, could they have flagged that I have scanned an off peak ticket at a peak time? How would they know I actually got on the train and not just waited on platform? Or could they see that a conductor has scanned my off peak ticket on a peak train? If that's the case then why hasn't the conductor flagged it and made me buy a new ticket?

These are the correct options in front of you:

You really have three options, each with pros and cons:

- Pay the amount demanded (and hope this really is the 'end of the matter', although it is not clear to me that this would be a full a final settlement for ALL alleged historic incidents). There may be a way to offer the settlement to ensure this is the case.
- Write back asking for details of what journeys they think are suspicious
- Ignore completely

I would strongly recommend not attending an interview, and not providing further personal information. There seems no benefit to you in doing so.

Personally I would go for option 1. Knowing you have intentionally fare evaded what sounds like quite regularly and using different methods.

I suspect if you ignore them, they may have some evidence in this case (such as scanning to evidence misuse of off/peak tickets).

The advice is spot on though, you’ll need to word a response to them to ensure it’s a full and final settlement for all cases (or potential cases) up to the day you pay it.

You really need to start buying the correct ticket from here or it’s only a matter of time until you are prosecuted.

 

[billphone]

Doesn't the letter say "this matter will be resolved" and "settle this matter straight away"? If i get in touch with them and start trying to stress a "full and final settlement for ALL alleged historic incidents" wont that make them think I'm guilty as hell and lead to further action? Am I not better just paying it and not speaking to them again? When I tried to get in touch with them they immediately asked for my address - if i refuse to give them this again wont that look suspicious?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 12:19 ==

Doesn't the letter say "this matter will be resolved" and "settle this matter straight away"? If i get in touch with them and start trying to stress a "full and final settlement for ALL alleged historic incidents" wont that make them think I'm guilty as hell and lead to further action? Am I not better just paying it and not speaking to them again? When I tried to get in touch with them they immediately asked for my address - if i refuse to give them this again wont that look suspicious?

have there been examples of people paying the fine and then they come back and ask for more money despite the letter saying paying the fine will settle the matter?

 

[30907]

have there been examples of people paying the fine and then they come back and ask for more money despite the letter saying paying the fine will settle the matter?

We have seen a few cases where someone has been caught, settled out of court for the one incident, but the train company has come back asking about further instances. The consensus here has been to ignore those letters.

I can't recall a case where a settlement has been agreed following a "fishing" mail and then a second letter has come, but I think the advice would probably be to ignore it.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Doesn't the letter say "this matter will be resolved" and "settle this matter straight away"? If i get in touch with them and start trying to stress a "full and final settlement for ALL alleged historic incidents" wont that make them think I'm guilty as hell and lead to further action? Am I not better just paying it and not speaking to them again? When I tried to get in touch with them they immediately asked for my address - if i refuse to give them this again wont that look suspicious?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Friday at 12:19 ==


have there been examples of people paying the fine and then they come back and ask for more money despite the letter saying paying the fine will settle the matter?

I think you could just clarify what exactly the settlement covers. It is a reasonable question. They are inviting you to a formal interview I would say they are already pretty suspicious.

 

[jon0844]

Only you would know if you'd bought a ticket from A to B, then later C to D and the timings being such that it seemed almost certain you'd gone from A to D. If the timings don't make it perfectly clear, you could try ignoring them and call their bluff. As said above, you probably have the best idea of what information they have - given every ticket purchased will record if scanned in and out, refunded and exactly when purchased.