Northern Rail strengthening from 14th December

[darloscott]

The diagram starting 06:21 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove is now 2x142 instead of a 150. The 150 will have gone somewhere else

Cheers! I always think its interesting to see how the chain of strengthening carries on down the fleet

 

[snail]

0652 Southport to Man Vic is normally a 156 + 150. Today it was a 142 + 150. Not surprisingly it was rammed full by Wigan.

 

[Class 170101]

The 323 is needed on the Manchester to Aiport runs. Its 319 replacement was losing time according to RTT.

 

[childwallblues]

The Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay service has as expected gone over to 319 working. This has released two units for use elsewhere.
Yesterday the Lime Street to Oxford Road service was operated by 4 x Class 156.

 

[northwichcat]

The diagram starting 06:21 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove is now 2x142 instead of a 150. The 150 will have gone somewhere else

Does that run the same diagram run as doubled up 142 all day?

I think that diagram included the 16:59 Chester-Manchester which can get a loading of 200+ on Fridays leaving Knutsford so I hope the 142s don't get split later on leaving a single one for that service.

 

[Thomas6187]

Does that run the same diagram run as doubled up 142 all day?

No, only one 142 comes back to Manchester. Both the 08:17 and 09:17 now run as a single set so diagrams are the same later in the in the day

 

[northwichcat]

No, only one 142 comes back to Manchester. Both the 08:17 and 09:17 now run as a single set so diagrams are the same later in the in the day

While the Farnworth Tunnel works were on the 142+156 formation on the 08:17 Manchester-Chester didn't normally get separated until after they'd worked the 12:17 Manchester-Chester.

While the regulars on the 07:17 Manchester-Chester are going to be happy, I think the regulars on the 15:17 Manchester-Chester and 16:59 Chester-Manchester won't be happy with a single 142, both those services had more passengers than seats with a single 150 and now there's 20-30 less seats.

 

[childwallblues]

The 323 is needed on the Manchester to Aiport runs. Its 319 replacement was losing time according to RTT.

Personally I do not think that checking RTT gives a true picture. The line between Slade Lane Junction and Manchester Airport is so busy that a delay to a TPE service can create late running to other services.

 

[northwichcat]

Personally I do not think that checking RTT gives a true picture. The line between Slade Lane Junction and Manchester Airport is so busy that a delay to a TPE service can create late running to other services.

As I posted in the 319 thread the 319 on the Airport shuttle has been losing time even when the service in front has been cancelled.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think it might be a mistake but Northern on their Journey Check site say the 17:49 Piccadilly-Buxton will today be formed of 4 carriages instead of 6 carriages. If it is 6 carriages, surely the rear two could only be in use between Piccadilly and Stockport.

 

[Crossover]

My contacts in the area suggest that 2 x 142, with both units in use, is quite a common formation on the Man Vic - Huddersfield stoppers.

TPE's franchise specification includes a semi-fast Manchester - Leeds calling at the four stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield, on a skip-stop basis. This will replace the Northern stopper.

TPE will just have 185s plus whatever extra stock they bid for (class 442 plus loco has been discussed here). So use of a 185 will require platform lengthening at Slaithwaite and Marsden (unless they use pl. 2 at Marsden). Or do 185s have selective door opening? I recall that a 185 is used on the first train down the Barton-on-Humber branch so I guess they do.

Nope, they have UDS (Unit DeSelect)

Class 185s do not have SDO.

I believe the method of work on the Barton Branch is to open only one door - the locally operated door with the GOP in the centre car. This is fine if the train and station are quiet (like the Barton branch), but not if the train is busy (like HUD - MCV stoppers).

Probably like what used to happen on the Windermere branch when the intermediates were request stops. As you say though, untenable for a busy service

 

[Darren R]

I've noticed this week that Class 153s have reappeared to strengthen Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe services, now that the Farnworth Tunnel works are (more-or-less) complete. Until the reduced timetable through Bolton started all those many months ago (or so it seems! ), dogboxes were quite a common sight on Clitheroe diagrams, and then they suddenly and completely disappeared. Just out of curiosity, where did they all go for the duration?

 

[northwichcat]

The diagram starting 06:21 Piccadilly-Hazel Grove is now 2x142 instead of a 150. The 150 will have gone somewhere else

According to Northern that diagram should be a 142+150 so after separation a 150 still works the 15:17 Manchester-Chester and 16:59 Chester-Manchester. However, it certainly wasn't consistent last week with 2x142s appearing on it at the start of the day.

 

[Loop & Link]

It's booked to be 2 x 142's, which split at Chester after the 0717.

 

[northwichcat]

It's booked to be 2 x 142's, which split at Chester after the 0717.

Is there any switch that is scheduled to occur later which means the 16:59 Chester-Manchester is still booked as a 150? Last week Northern said they were certain that service is still booked as a 150. The days I saw it last week one day it was a 142, the other it was a 150. I'm not sure what ran it on Friday if it was a 142 (when that service gets busier) there may have been some difficulty getting the doors shut at Knutsford. From RTT it cumulatively lost 9 minutes between Chester and Hale so it sounds like it was a 142.

 

[Loop & Link]

Nope, unit is on the Chesters all day. Definitely booked a 142 that 1659, unless it's been STP'd.

 

[IanXC]

(see table 20.1, figures from the Yorkshire and Humber regional planning assessment for
the railway, 2007).
Table 20.1: Train loadings in the morning peak, by line

Line - Peak train loading % - Number of trains in peak period
Harrogate to Leeds - 213 - 5
Calder Valley Line to Leeds - 168 - 6
Scarborough to Hull - 145 - 6
Airedale to Leeds - 142 - 6
York to Leeds (NT not via HGT) - 140 - 3
Wharfedale line to Leeds - 139 - 6
Five towns to Leeds - 133 - 3
Sheffield to Leeds (NT via BNY) - 131 - 4

http://www2.eastriding.gov.uk/counc...s-information/transport/local-transport-plan/

Admittedly the above data is a little old at 2007 but its interesting to see where the pinch points are (in this case in Yorkshire) and the actions taken with regard them.

 

[Chrisyd]

I've noticed this week that Class 153s have reappeared to strengthen Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe services, now that the Farnworth Tunnel works are (more-or-less) complete. Until the reduced timetable through Bolton started all those many months ago (or so it seems! ), dogboxes were quite a common sight on Clitheroe diagrams, and then they suddenly and completely disappeared. Just out of curiosity, where did they all go for the duration?

Since October the 0738 (Bolton) departure has been three carriages, including a 153, for the initial part of the closure it was 4 carriages, the 0758 has been four carriages for all of the closure (and still very busy before Bolton) has reverted to three again (much to the locals at Bromley Cross' bemusement when they are being played messages about additional carriages), a friend told me the same has happened with the 0836, but have not checked that one personally yet. Certainly the 0758 needed four carriages before the tunnel works when it was three, was better when it was four and has mysteriously had an increase in overcrowding since it returned to three.

 

[northwichcat]

Nope, unit is on the Chesters all day. Definitely booked a 142 that 1659, unless it's been STP'd.

It was a 150 today, last week it saw both 142s and 150s. Anyone would think Northern had a random unit generator.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Since October the 0738 (Bolton) departure has been three carriages, including a 153, for the initial part of the closure it was 4 carriages, the 0758 has been four carriages for all of the closure (and still very busy before Bolton) has reverted to three again (much to the locals at Bromley Cross' bemusement when they are being played messages about additional carriages), a friend told me the same has happened with the 0836, but have not checked that one personally yet. Certainly the 0758 needed four carriages before the tunnel works when it was three, was better when it was four and has mysteriously had an increase in overcrowding since it returned to three.

If it's a 150+153 they'll be around 210 seats, as it's a peak time service that means across the 3 carriages there can be over 70 people standing and no empty seats before it's classed as overcrowded*. If there's 100 standing and 30 empty middle seats on the 150 then it's still not classed as overcrowded*.

* An exception applies if people have to stand for more than 20 minutes.

 

[AM9]

... as it's a peak time service that means across the 3 carriages there can be over 70 people standing and no empty seats before it's classed as overcrowded*. If there's 100 standing and 30 empty middle seats on the 150 then it's still not classed as overcrowded*.

* An exception applies if people have to stand for more than 20 minutes.

So if the 70 standing in three cars (i.e. less than 24 passengers per car), is the limit of standing for up to 20 minutes in accordance with the DfT franchise requirements that's OK.
If passengers choose not to occupy some seats and there are 70 passengers in total more than the number of seats, then the train is no more overcrowded than above, nor should it be considered so.

 

[Saxonia]

It was a 150 today, last week it saw both 142s and 150s. Anyone would think Northern had a random unit generator.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If it's a 150+153 they'll be around 210 seats, as it's a peak time service that means across the 3 carriages there can be over 70 people standing and no empty seats before it's classed as overcrowded*. If there's 100 standing and 30 empty middle seats on the 150 then it's still not classed as overcrowded*.

* An exception applies if people have to stand for more than 20 minutes.

Northern's 142/150 diagrams have been interworked for a good number of years, & nothing is fixed. It all comes down to what unit is available at the start of the diagram, with the only exception being Hazel Grove-Buxton, which must have 150 or 156 units. When the 142's were passed for Blackburn-Clitheroe, Blackpool CS were quite adept at getting rid of a 142, by sending one out as ECS for the 0640 Clitheroe-Man Vic. The diagram kept the unit on the route all day, including the chronically oversubscribed 1700 Man Vic-Clitheroe. Sometimes the 142 would be taken out of the diagram if a 150 or 156 happened to be handy, but as Blackpool became ever more adept at getting rid of a 142 via this method, then the 142 was increasingly left on the diagram all day, with attendant severe loss of time.

 

[Darren R]

Northern's 142/150 diagrams have been interworked for a good number of years, & nothing is fixed. It all comes down to what unit is available at the start of the diagram, with the only exception being Hazel Grove-Buxton, which must have 150 or 156 units. When the 142's were passed for Blackburn-Clitheroe, Blackpool CS were quite adept at getting rid of a 142, by sending one out as ECS for the 0640 Clitheroe-Man Vic. The diagram kept the unit on the route all day, including the chronically oversubscribed 1700 Man Vic-Clitheroe. Sometimes the 142 would be taken out of the diagram if a 150 or 156 happened to be handy, but as Blackpool became ever more adept at getting rid of a 142 via this method, then the 142 was increasingly left on the diagram all day, with attendant severe loss of time.

Crafty b*****s!

Although Pacers are now passed between Blackburn and Clitheroe, they are restricted to 30mph on that section. As well as the overcrowding you mention, they lose several minutes between Clitheroe and Blackburn as a result of the speed restriction. With very tight turnarounds at Victoria, the delay often means a late departure going back to Clitheroe and a perpetually late train for the rest of the day, so I'm not surprised that a unit swap takes place if possible. (And I hope the miscreant gets packed off back to Blackpool asap! )

 

[Saxonia]

Well, you may be surprised to learn that the 142's are actually passed for line speed, which is currently 45mph. The track had all been relaid before the ban was lifted on them, & they observe the same restrictions as all other units. Indeed, it has to be said that 142's make a better fist of the climb of Wilpshire bank than a good number of 15x units, given their lighter weight.
They're by no means appreciated on the Ribble valley, but they are infinitely preferable to a class 153.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern's 142/150 diagrams have been interworked for a good number of years, & nothing is fixed.

There are supposed to be 142 diagrams, 150 diagrams and 156 diagrams. A service isn't supposed to have a 142 on Monday, then a 150 on a Tuesday, then a 142 on Wednesday and Thursday and a 150 on Friday.

The diagrams which include a working to Buxton are obviously not 142s. The 14:59 Chester to Manchester is booked as 2 x 150s and it's very rare for a 142 to appear on that service, as the same units are down to work the 16:51 Piccadilly to Buxton.

 

[Saxonia]

There are supposed to be 142 diagrams, 150 diagrams and 156 diagrams. A service isn't supposed to have a 142 on Monday, then a 150 on a Tuesday, then a 142 on Wednesday and Thursday and a 150 on Friday.

The diagrams which include a working to Buxton are obviously not 142s. The 14:59 Chester to Manchester is booked as 2 x 150s and it's very rare for a 142 to appear on that service, as the same units are down to work the 16:51 Piccadilly to Buxton.

Sorry, but you're just going to have to go with me on this one. What is booked on paper, & what actually transpires on the day, are two entirely different matters where units are concerned. The sole focus is to ensure that the train actually runs, so as not to incur cancellation costs. If a train is booked for 2 x 15x units, & a solitary 142 turns up, it runs - whether or not the traincrew are successful in getting some "not to stop" orders out of Control is another matter, but I can categorically assure you that single 142's are trotted out in lieu of booked double unit formations, or indeed 319's these days, on a daily basis. In an ideal world, all diagrams would be rigidly maintained - aah, but then reality on the day kicks in, I'm afraid.

 

[PHILIPE]

When I was working, there used to be a saying "Diagrams are written to be broken" !!!

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry, but you're just going to have to go with me on this one. What is booked on paper, & what actually transpires on the day, are two entirely different matters where units are concerned. The sole focus is to ensure that the train actually runs, so as not to incur cancellation costs. If a train is booked for 2 x 15x units, & a solitary 142 turns up, it runs - whether or not the traincrew are successful in getting some "not to stop" orders out of Control is another matter, but I can categorically assure you that single 142's are trotted out in lieu of booked double unit formations, or indeed 319's these days, on a daily basis. In an ideal world, all diagrams would be rigidly maintained - aah, but then reality on the day kicks in, I'm afraid.

I did say 'supposed' not what actually happens. A service can be supposed to be a 150 departing at 15:00 but I accept it can actually be a 142 departing at 15:08. In the case of some services where Northern receive a financial incentive for strengthening there are penalties for Northern operating the service with a smaller train than required but then I imagine the penalty is a lot lower than the one for not running a service.

 

[Darren R]

Well, you may be surprised to learn that the 142's are actually passed for line speed, which is currently 45mph. The track had all been relaid before the ban was lifted on them, & they observe the same restrictions as all other units. Indeed, it has to be said that 142's make a better fist of the climb of Wilpshire bank than a good number of 15x units, given their lighter weight.
They're by no means appreciated on the Ribble valley, but they are infinitely preferable to a class 153.

If Pacers are now passed to run at line speed between Blackburn and Clitheroe, then someone really needs to update the Sectional Appendix! And (more importantly!) the information needs to be passed on to drivers, many of whom appear not to know that the speed differential for Pacers no longer applies. (Either that or they just don't like driving Pacers above 30mph - and who can blame them! )

 

[northwichcat]

If Pacers are now passed to run at line speed between Blackburn and Clitheroe, then someone really needs to update the Sectional Appendix! And (more importantly!) the information needs to be passed on to drivers, many of whom appear not to know that the speed differential for Pacers no longer applies. (Either that or they just don't like driving Pacers above 30mph - and who can blame them! )

Well some drivers seem to drive Pacers around Skelton Junction at around 5mph opposed to the line speed but I imagine they are doing that to protect their own hearing.