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Northern Short forming
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Dr Hoo
Established Member
Wasn't there some issue with the numerous CAF Class 195 DMUs and Class 331 EMUs needing extra checks over possible cracking? Or has that gone away for the time being?
If availability is compromised by additional checks and/or remedial work I don't find it "astounding" at all.
DanNCL
Established Member
It was the opposite situation in the North East on Saturday with some services the are normally only formed of 2 coaches instead having 4. I’ll hazard a guess those weren’t mentioned on journey check!
They were.
londonbridge
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There have been regular complaints about Northern services heading into Sunderland on home match Saturdays being only two carriages, with reports of overcrowding to the extent that people at Horden and Seaham have been unable to board.
But that’s not shortforming. That’s standard for the North East. Cynic in me says there was only strengthening last week because the Morpeth / Chathills were off for engineering. But that’s OT as we are talking about units which are booked 3 or 4 coaches turning up as 2 etc
northernchris
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Northern do seem to struggle most days with unit availability, and in the case of the Calder Valley many short forms don't get reported on Journey Check. If this is the current state expect the daily shortforms to be back to the 2018/2019 levels once the December timetable comes in to operation
111 was split off but 126 was attached on the other end to 124 so it still ran as four cars
Lots of issues are tech related on the 195s so where as in the old times the fitter might be able to fix it at the station now the only option is to send the unit back to the depot.
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With respect, I think we're moving in the right direction in the North of England. Frankly, given where things were only 2-3 years ago in terms of cancellations and delays, if short forms are now more the prominent problem, I think we can call this a relative success.
In all fairness, short forms are almost endemic to the way the industry is run. If TOCs are required to "sweat the assets", in terms of required fleet availability, its inevitable that things won't always be able to be delivered. It goes hand in hand with cost efficiency. What is to be celebrated is that the industry now is so transparent, it even requires short forms to be published.
Whilst I understand the frustration, I think its really important to keep things balanced and recognise that the railway across the North of England is so vastly improved from where it was just 2 years ago, comparatively, its barely recognisable.
In all fairness, short forms are almost endemic to the way the industry is run. If TOCs are required to "sweat the assets", in terms of required fleet availability, its inevitable that things won't always be able to be delivered. It goes hand in hand with cost efficiency. What is to be celebrated is that the industry now is so transparent, it even requires short forms to be published.
Whilst I understand the frustration, I think its really important to keep things balanced and recognise that the railway across the North of England is so vastly improved from where it was just 2 years ago, comparatively, its barely recognisable.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
Twice yesterday and once on Tuesday, my service was short formed in to a 2-car diesel when it should be a 4-car running on electric. It was the first time since the pandemic started that I had to stand, and there were lots of people standing. It’s very frustrating as a passenger. Yes it is not as bad as 2018, but that shouldn’t be the benchmark. Not good enough.
This is the railway that fills station buildings with posters about criminal proceedings if you don't have a ticket, sells the ticket first, and then allows you to find that you can't even get in the train. At least with a bus if you can't get on you don't have to pay the driver.
Can you imagine a supermarket that required you to pay in advance before entering for what you wanted, then when you get inside the shelves are empty and it's pretty impossible to get your money back.
tbtc
Veteran Member
The problem is that anything looks bad when aggregated up.
Sixty six trains is loads, but how many of them are noticeable reductions, how many of them are just going back to what the capacity was for many years?
For example, Sheffield - Hull - Scarborough diagram appears to be a two coach 158 rather than a three coach 170, but passengers had a two coach 158 for many years, I wouldn't be at all surprised if one turned up on a route that is generally in the hands of Northern's small fleet of 170s
Same with one of the Lime Street - Oxford Road stoppers - two coaches is a significant reduction on the "normal" four coaches, but this used to be run by thirty metre 142s, so a forty metre 150 isn't the end of the world - but one missing unit means several trains a day on the list, given that the unit shuttles between the cities
"00:22 Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly due 00:39" << how many people are really going to be inconvenienced by this being "only" three coaches?
I'm not saying it's great that so many trains have fewer coaches than planned for, but I think a bit of perspective is needed - a few years ago a lot of those train lengths would have been the norm (as would regular cancellations)
If people are being left behind as a result of this then I'd be concerned, but passenger numbers are still a good bit lower than where they used to be
Can you imagine a Supermarket that had a website which showed every time a shelf at one of it's supermarkets nationwide was running low, or every time a delivery to one of their stores was less than expected, e.g. how many times there were only a dozen tins of beans rather than twenty tins?
Sixty six trains is loads, but how many of them are noticeable reductions, how many of them are just going back to what the capacity was for many years?
For example, Sheffield - Hull - Scarborough diagram appears to be a two coach 158 rather than a three coach 170, but passengers had a two coach 158 for many years, I wouldn't be at all surprised if one turned up on a route that is generally in the hands of Northern's small fleet of 170s
Same with one of the Lime Street - Oxford Road stoppers - two coaches is a significant reduction on the "normal" four coaches, but this used to be run by thirty metre 142s, so a forty metre 150 isn't the end of the world - but one missing unit means several trains a day on the list, given that the unit shuttles between the cities
"00:22 Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly due 00:39" << how many people are really going to be inconvenienced by this being "only" three coaches?
I'm not saying it's great that so many trains have fewer coaches than planned for, but I think a bit of perspective is needed - a few years ago a lot of those train lengths would have been the norm (as would regular cancellations)
If people are being left behind as a result of this then I'd be concerned, but passenger numbers are still a good bit lower than where they used to be
Can you imagine a Supermarket that had a website which showed every time a shelf at one of it's supermarkets nationwide was running low, or every time a delivery to one of their stores was less than expected, e.g. how many times there were only a dozen tins of beans rather than twenty tins?
mike57
Established Member
The only time this would be a problem is a few weekend trains to and from Scarborough. Mid morning arrivals into Bridlington and Scarborough were full, mostly day trippers, and it was the first week of tickets sold in "£1 sale"
A Northern fitter told me a while ago a decision was made towards the end of the Serco Abellio franchise to drastically reduce the number of spare parts for units being held at maintenance depots, some parts only ordered as and when required to cut costs.
The unreliability of 769s doesn't help as the substitute units have to come of other strengthening, however does anyone know if Northerns units are currently out of service for or longer than usual maintenance? Are supply chain issues (covid/Brexit) delaying parts?
Northern are still running a very much reduced timetable so they should have enough units to cover it.
The unreliability of 769s doesn't help as the substitute units have to come of other strengthening, however does anyone know if Northerns units are currently out of service for or longer than usual maintenance? Are supply chain issues (covid/Brexit) delaying parts?
Northern are still running a very much reduced timetable so they should have enough units to cover it.
MP393
Member
Always tends to get worse around this time of year as more units are going to start needed to lathe more frequently, as leaf fall season approaches
Two of the best current excuses for management incompetence and penny-pinching.
This is exactly how the Ocado (and others) on-line grocery systems work. Except a lot more sophisticated.
O L Leigh
Established Member
But the ticket you are sold is not specific to that train, so the analogy is void.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Given the supermarket analogies that are being attempted I wonder if any other posters have been trying on-line home delivery orders recently?
Discovering that desired slots are unavailable or that particular products are out of stock (with some sometimes bizarre suggested substitutions that may not meet dietary needs) seems to be quite common.
(I am not complaining about this. I recognise that anything to do with transport and logistics is extremely challenging at the moment and appreciate that many workers across the whole sector are doing their best. I am not expecting things in either rail or retail to 'return to normal' any time soon.)
Discovering that desired slots are unavailable or that particular products are out of stock (with some sometimes bizarre suggested substitutions that may not meet dietary needs) seems to be quite common.
(I am not complaining about this. I recognise that anything to do with transport and logistics is extremely challenging at the moment and appreciate that many workers across the whole sector are doing their best. I am not expecting things in either rail or retail to 'return to normal' any time soon.)
londonbridge
Established Member
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I appreciate it's not strictly OT but Northern obviously know there's increased demand on Saturdays, surely it's feasible to allocate rolling stock to have threee or four coaches on trains heading into Sunderland in the morning, and two on those heading away from the city, and vice versa after the match.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
For a match, there could be a need for longer trains for a service to Middlesbrough, but the hourly northern service isn’t the primary service there. It’s all about the Metro.
voyagerdude220
Established Member
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150111 originally failed on Tuesday's 16:11 Colne to Preston, running on just the one engine from Nelson and terminated at Blackburn.
It was then shunted to the front of the 17:19 Blackburn to Kirkby, whilst one of the two original 150s which had arrived on the 17:19's previous working into Blackburn was detached.
This is a very interesting way of solving the problem. 75% power is better than 50% power. Did the other 150 that had come from Kirkby then run through to Preston?
jamesst
Established Member
Thats always been a favorite way of solving a half power unit problem on Merseyrail. Couple the dodgy unit with a good one and run it round as a 75% power non split 6car until it can return to the depot.
voyagerdude220
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Yes, probably to cover services which 150111 should have worked.
Purple Orange
On Moderation
Yet another short formed train this morning on a busy Alderley Edge to Southport. A 2-car diesel train is wholly inadequate for the volume of passengers needing to use the service. Not good enough.
Would you have preferred it was cancelled outright and the stock used instead to prevent another service from being short-formed?
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