Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[JordR]

On the "social value" question raised, it's been government policy since 2021 that at least 10% of the assessment weighting should be based on this.

Procurement Policy Note 06/20 – taking account of social value in the award of central government contracts

This note sets out how to take account of social value in the award of central government contracts by using the Social Value Model.

www.gov.uk

 

[WibbleWobble]

I'd guess CAF, Alstom, Hitachi and a Siemens/Stadler joint bid. The latter have worked jointly over in Europe before. It'll depend on timescales as Alstom and Hitachi will be full with HS2.

Don't rule out a CAF/Alstom joint bid either. Since CAF bought the Reichshoffen factory following the Alstom-Bombardier merger, the two have come together as a consortium on other projects, such as the current RER line B stock replacement.

 

[anthony263]

Since they've not long opened the new maintenance shed at newton heath I think they'll stick to CAF.

Agreed CAF I suspect. GWR looking for a standard fleet to replace their dmus

 

[northwichcat]

Rather suggests that two 2car units are not what is required, but single 3car set.

You don't understand Northern's 'logic'. Why run a 4 car 150 one hour and a 2 car 156 the next when you can run a 150+156 formation and a single 150? Then if there's a sports event on have passengers squashed like sardines in one of the class 156 carriages, while the other is locked out-of-use.

The problem we have in the north is the infrastructure and available rolling stock decide the capacity and service frequency, not the demand.

How many of these short platforms are actually short, as opposed to being part of a longer platform where part has fallen out of use. Rather easier to replace few platform face sections than build from foundations up. (although there are prefabricated platform extensions that can be lifted in these days, even ones to span roads as was done at Kingston upon Thames)

There are some that are in theory the right length and have had doubled up formations stopping there for years, but now the unions have decided they're too short in case the driver pulls 5m too far forward or stops 5m too far back.

 

[td97]

There are some that are in theory the right length and have had doubled up formations stopping there for years, but now the unions have decided they're too short in case the driver pulls 5m too far forward or stops 5m too far back.

Platform length make-up is written in a RSSB standard and the unions have no grounds for complaint if a platform meets this standard. What you may be referring to is a 2x150 formation being permitted but a 2x156 formation being too long owing to the extra 6m of length, as occurs on the Knutsford line. In this case one unit may be locked out, or detached if appropriate to be used for another service/left in a platform all day.

I suspect the bi mode portion of the contract will be used more heavily on the Yorkshire side

The west side is better suited to trains with 25kV + short-range battery whereas the east is better suited to 25kV + long-range battery units, where charging can only really be done at electrified termini stations (Leeds, Newcastle, Darlington, Sheffield*, Carlisle).
One does wonder if there would be 3rd rail charging capability at Southport, or 1500V at Sunderland.

Based on the incomplete OLE make-up of the routes these trains will be operating, with multiple power changes during one journey, if I was a business development bod at a company specialising in APCO (automatic power changeover) balises I would be investing heavily in my relationship with NR right now. Going to be needed at...
West side: Hazel Grove, Bolton, Trafford Park, Hunts Cross, Stockport, Oxenholme, Carnforth, Ashburys, Salford Crescent, Kirkham, Manchester Victoria, Warrington BQ, Preston (Farington Curve).
East side: Skipton, Moorthorpe, Newcastle, Darlington, York, Doncaster, Leeds, Carlisle, Doncaster.
Not to mention all the future electrification limits such as Heaton Lodge, Deighton, Bradford Interchange, Micklefield, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Wigan Station/Crow Nest Jn.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Based on the incomplete OLE make-up of the routes these trains will be operating, with multiple power changes during one journey, if I was a business development bod at a company specialising in APCO (automatic power changeover) balises I would be investing heavily in my relationship with NR right now. Going to be needed at...
West side: Hazel Grove, Bolton, Trafford Park, Hunts Cross, Stockport, Oxenholme, Carnforth, Ashburys, Salford Crescent, Kirkham, Manchester Victoria.
East side: Skipton, Moorthorpe, Newcastle, Darlington, York, Doncaster, Leeds, Carlisle.
Not to mention all the future electrification limits such as Heaton Lodge, Deighton, Bradford Interchange, Micklefield, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Wigan Station/Crow Nest Jn.

As an example here's Wigan Wallgate - Leeds assuming all electrification projects done
Wallgate - Non-OLE
Wigan Station Junction - OLE
Crow Nest Junction - Non-OLE
Just before Salford Crescent - OLE
East of Man Vic - Non-OLE
Heaton Lodge East Jn - OLE

 

[skyhigh]

Agreed CAF I suspect. GWR looking for a standard fleet to replace their dmus

Again, a maintenance shed that was part of an order for an existing fleet means pretty much nothing when an order for hundreds of new units is on the line.

It's been mentioned on here by someone in the know that a suprise bidder is in the lead. CAF would very much not be a surprise.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It's been mentioned on here by someone in the know that a suprise bidder is in the lead. CAF would very much not be a surprise.

Here's the quote:

The bids for the replacement of Northern’s 15x fleet is quite well advanced (commenced in January) with a surprise leading bidder at the moment. I can’t say anymore than that.

"Surprise" kinda just feels like "anything but CAF" in these circumstances.

 

[anthony263]

Stadler then I'd be very surprised if they've got this order. Only other I can see could be Alstom

 

[AlastairFraser]

The west side is better suited to trains with 25kV + short-range battery whereas the east is better suited to 25kV + long-range battery units, where charging can only really be done at electrified termini stations (Leeds, Newcastle, Darlington, Sheffield*, Carlisle).
One does wonder if there would be 3rd rail charging capability at Southport, or 1500V at Sunderland.

Based on the incomplete OLE make-up of the routes these trains will be operating, with multiple power changes during one journey, if I was a business development bod at a company specialising in APCO (automatic power changeover) balises I would be investing heavily in my relationship with NR right now. Going to be needed at...
West side: Hazel Grove, Bolton, Trafford Park, Hunts Cross, Stockport, Oxenholme, Carnforth, Ashburys, Salford Crescent, Kirkham, Manchester Victoria.
East side: Skipton, Moorthorpe, Newcastle, Darlington, York, Doncaster, Leeds, Carlisle.
Not to mention all the future electrification limits such as Heaton Lodge, Deighton, Bradford Interchange, Micklefield, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Wigan Station/Crow Nest Jn.

I agree with most of what you've said, although you couldn't really reliably use short-range battery on a lot of the western lines, due to gradients. e.g. Buxton, Clitheroe, Calder Valley....

As an example here's Wigan Wallgate - Leeds assuming all electrification projects done
Wallgate - Non-OLE
Wigan Station Junction - OLE
Crow Nest Junction - Non-OLE
Just before Salford Crescent - OLE
East of Man Vic - Non-OLE
Heaton Lodge East Jn - OLE

Isn't Man Vic to Rochdale getting wires? And it's likely they use no wires Wigan to Salford via Atherton for operational convenience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with most of what you've said, although you couldn't really reliably use short-range battery on a lot of the western lines, due to gradients. e.g. Buxton, Clitheroe, Calder Valley....

Gradients aren't a problem, you use power going up and regen on the way back down.

 

[northwichcat]

Platform length make-up is written in a RSSB standard and the unions have no grounds for complaint if a platform meets this standard. What you may be referring to is a 2x150 formation being permitted but a 2x156 formation being too long owing to the extra 6m of length, as occurs on the Knutsford line. In this case one unit may be locked out, or detached if appropriate to be used for another service/left in a platform all day.

No. I'm referring to 150+156 formations have stopped at before with all doors released but the current working arrangement involves locking the rear unit out of use, despite no change to the platforms. The 5m number was a figure I made up.

The stations between Mobberley and Hale are an example. A few years ago a 150+150 or 150+156 formation may have left Chester with the rear set locked out-of-use but the guard unlocked the rear set at Greenbank. Pairs of 156s are a different matter but they do have the advantage of a guarantee of corridor connections, meaning on occasions all carriages are open and guards advise people alighting at certain stations to make their way to the middle of the train, where they then do a local door release.

I agree with most of what you've said, although you couldn't really reliably use short-range battery on a lot of the western lines, due to gradients. e.g. Buxton, Clitheroe, Calder Valley....

If it's one train type for all lines, then it can't be short range batteries. One thing that might work is trains with a lower top speed when they are off the wires. I'm guessing the Buxton line would be OK with a train limited to 65mph south of Hazel Grove, if it could do 90 north of there?

 

[HSTEd]

It's not going to be CRRC or something is it?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's been mentioned on here by someone in the know that a suprise bidder is in the lead. CAF would very much not be a surprise.

But the tender hasn't been issued yet!?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

But the tender hasn't been issued yet!?

I think this

Rolling Stock

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

might be related to that, but I have a feeling that is related.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This para suggests that the procurement now launched is independent of the market engagement event:

This Market Engagement exercise is entirely independent of any procurement exercise that may or may not be undertaken by Northern, and participation will not influence the outcome of any procurement activity.

Anyway, it's what DfT wants/is prepared to allow which matters.

 

[Snow1964]

It's been mentioned on here by someone in the know that a suprise bidder is in the lead. CAF would very much not be a surprise.

If betting on newcomers, then in same way can be argued the South Koreans have overtaken Japanese in cars, perhaps should be thinking of someone like Hyundai-Rotem.

Didn't they build some of Ireland rail fleet (22000 class, or whatever it is called)

 

[ainsworth74]

Didn't they build some of Ireland rail fleet (22000 class, or whatever it is called)

They did indeed.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Gradients aren't a problem, you use power going up and regen on the way back down.

The ratio of climbing to descending gradients on lines such as e.g the Buxton line isn't equal, so regen braking would not reliably generate enough electricity to complete a set of journeys on a shorter-range battery.

If it's one train type for all lines, then it can't be short range batteries. One thing that might work is trains with a lower top speed when they are off the wires. I'm guessing the Buxton line would be OK with a train limited to 65mph south of Hazel Grove, if it could do 90 north of there?

Nah, Buxton has a significant section of above 65 I believe from Buxton towards Chapel and the line is already slow. A charger at Buxton on the platformed lines and stabling siding in the middle would make sense perhaps, and some discontinuous electrification on the heavier gradients around Chapel and Dove Holes perhaps.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ratio of climbing to descending gradients on lines such as e.g the Buxton line isn't equal, so regen braking would not reliably generate enough electricity to complete a set of journeys on a shorter-range battery.

Eh? If a unit does a round trip from Manchester to Buxton, it will go down the same amount that it goes up. It physically can't be otherwise.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Eh? If a unit does a round trip from Manchester to Buxton, it will go down the same amount that it goes up. It physically can't be otherwise.

As in the gradients on one leg from HG mean it won't make it back to the wires at HG with a shorter range battery.

 

[Roast Veg]

It's not going to be CRRC or something is it?

This was my first thought when "suprise bidder" was mentioned.

I suppose Hyundai Rotem, Kawasaki, and Mitsui are theoretically also eligible bidders.

 

[WatcherZero]

Cant see a Chinese bid succeeding in the current environment and I think we can rule out Transmash as well for obvious reasons.
Kawasaki possibly to try and match Hitachi, Kawasaki have done quite well in bidding for the US Metro contracts recently.
Talgo hasnt been mentioned, they bid for the HS2 contracts and did the legwork on possible UK factory locations.

 

[ac6000cw]

If betting on newcomers, then in same way can be argued the South Koreans have overtaken Japanese in cars, perhaps should be thinking of someone like Hyundai-Rotem.

Didn't they build some of Ireland rail fleet (22000 class, or whatever it is called)

As an outsider bid, I also think Hyundai-Rotem (given they have European experience in Ireland) might be a good bet.

 

[CdBrux]

It'd increase cost, not reduce it. North of Burscough, which is probably the edge of the Liverpool commuter area, it is just empty space with little case for major housing development expansion, and not that many people actually need to go from Ormskirk to Preston or vice versa, while there's a primary Liverpool-Preston service via Wigan already.

You can't expect it to look like the Elizabeth Line, as the economic and demographic situation is not even similar.

How would replacing a service currently run by an old DMU with one run by a modern BEMU increase cost? I am assuming to keep the same frequency as today

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As an outsider bid, I also think Hyundai-Rotem (given they have European experience in Ireland) might be a good bet.

Hyundai-Rotem also supplied 10 express EMUs to Ukraine Railways in 2011 (HRCS2).

However, I doubt Northern, NR and DfT will be much interested in certifying new technology from untried manufacturers, as it's usually a bed of nails.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

How would replacing a service currently run by an old DMU with one run by a modern BEMU increase cost? I am assuming to keep the same frequency as today

Would a BEMU likely be heavier and lead to higher track repair costs?

 

[Danfilm007]

You don't understand Northern's 'logic'. Why run a 4 car 150 one hour and a 2 car 156 the next when you can run a 150+156 formation and a single 150? Then if there's a sports event on have passengers squashed like sardines in one of the class 156 carriages, while the other is locked out-of-use.

Oddly-specific reference - what was wrong with that unit? I was (un)lucky enough not to be able to get on that particular borked unit!..

Says a lot when as prev mentioned, platform extensions at several stations on the MCL would allow 4 car trains to be used!

Sadly they won't unlock until Stockport now in my experience...

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would replacing a service currently run by an old DMU with one run by a modern BEMU increase cost? I am assuming to keep the same frequency as today

Old DMUs are cheaper to lease than new BEMUs for one. The number they presently have is the number needed to operate Headbolt - for a significant extension like that you'd need to lease an extra 2 units (hourly on Ormskirk-Preston is 2 diagrams passing at Rufford if you separate it from the "circuit").

Plus they don't have toilets.

Preston really isn't a sensible destination for Merseyrail. Burscough probably is, but Preston isn't.

 

[northwichcat]

Nah, Buxton has a significant section of above 65 I believe from Buxton towards Chapel and the line is already slow.

The frequent stops would mean faster acceleration could by offset by a lower top speed.