Northern ... this week has been a shambles!

[joke2711]

Hi Forum Members

Thought I would bring it to your attention about my regular commute this week.

I travel from Rainford to Manor Road, switching on to Merseyrail at Kirkby.

On Tuesday, I was dropped off at Rainford Station at 0655 to catch the 0712 service. This train was showing as being on-time on departure and 4 minutes late leaving Manchester Vic. Shortly before the due arrival time it then showed as cancelled;

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y53253/2019/04/02

This left me with no alternative to get a Taxi to Kirkby as the 0758 service was to late for my business requirements.

On Wednesday, I was getting the later 0758 service which was showing as 25 minutes late. This time I took the car and arrived at the station around 0815, parked and made my way to the platform. This train was then cancelled ...

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y53257/2019/04/03

On Thursday returning home from work, I arrived at Kirkby around 1750 to catch the 1815 service. This was already showing as cancelled on the information boards.

Realtime trains has this service as departing;

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y52961/2019/04/04

but the truth is on the incoming train

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y53258/2019/04/04

For those who don't know Rainford, it has an hourly service at best, it has no shelters, it has no seats, it has no information boards, it has no announcements. This week with particularly cold and inclement weather it hasn't been a nice place to be.

After a few twitter conversations, Northern just end up saying "Here is how you complain". However yesterday there was an admission that they have insufficient drivers, although I cannot see why they can't run a train from Wigan to Kirkby when it is running to time.

To compound the situation, the Merseyrail staff at Kirkby were sympathetic and wanted to lay on transport, even taxi's, but Northern refused. At 18:00 they said that they were ordering road transport which would take at least an hour as they couldn't guarantee that the next train (which at the time was already 20 late) would arrive. The twitter team apologised, told us what we already knew, but then said that NO transport was being provided. The decision was then taken to take another taxi, as I wasn't going to wait on a whim. As it turns out the 1850 service did run but was late leaving.

Northern have been a disgrace to the passengers who rely on this service ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern have been a disgrace

That is enough to sum it up

 

[Haywain]

they have insufficient drivers, although I cannot see why they can't run a train from Wigan to Kirkby when it is running to time.

There could be a number of reasons for this, for example:

• Not having a driver available who has route knowledge to Kirkby
• Using a cover driver who needs to have a break during the part of the diagram they are covering
• Using drivers at the start/end of their shifts to cover each part of the journey to/from Wigan

They could be other reasons, but unfortunately these things can be more complex than they appear to the passenger.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There could be a number of reasons for this, for example:

• Not having a driver available who has route knowledge to Kirkby
• Using a cover driver who needs to have a break during the part of the diagram they are covering
• Using drivers at the start/end of their shifts to cover each part of the journey to/from Wigan

They could be other reasons, but unfortunately these things can be more complex than they appear to the passenger.

What they need to do is redo the timetable from scratch for the number of crew they actually have. Lop frequencies and increase train lengths to maximum (but keep to existing slots so it doesn't require other TOCs to change anything, as that probably wouldn't be happening on the kind of leeway they need).

Northern are not competent enough to do that in my view.

 

[Clip]

What they need to do is redo the timetable from scratch for the number of crew they actually have. Lop frequencies and increase train lengths to maximum (but keep to existing slots so it doesn't require other TOCs to change anything, as that probably wouldn't be happening on the kind of leeway they need).

Northern are not competent enough to do that in my view.

I would probably think it was more to do with their franchise commitments rather than not being competent enough to do what you want.

 

[joke2711]

What they need to do is redo the timetable from scratch for the number of crew they actually have. Lop frequencies and increase train lengths to maximum (but keep to existing slots so it doesn't require other TOCs to change anything, as that probably wouldn't be happening on the kind of leeway they need).

Northern are not competent enough to do that in my view.

Northern quote on their website that they "Put the Customer at the heart of all they do" (sic)
Good job they have that approach is I wouldn't like to see the service if they didn't

As #Haywain states .. it might be a number of reasons why drivers are not available, but are these really known only 10/15 minutes before the train is due to depart or are they planned. Be BIG enough to tell passengers that services are unlikely to run so alternative arrangements can be made.

As an aside .. The service this morning (07:58) must have had two guards. This I note because I was frantically awaiting the guard as I had no ticket and he was stood at the back of the train texting on his mobile phone. When he finally decided to move we were already approaching Kirkby and the passengers started blocking the way as they make the dash to connect with Merseyrail. However, an announcement was made about our arrival by someone else ....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fundamentally the diagrams are too complex, and this is the cause of the issues when there is e.g. excessive staff sickness.

 

[Haywain]

Fundamentally the diagrams are too complex, and this is the cause of the issues when there is e.g. excessive staff sickness.

Complexity of diagrams is not the problem, it's staff sickness. It's notable that this is a problem also afflicting South Western Railway at the moment - both companies are now seeing a side effect of the strikes through the autumn.

 

[J-Rod]

There could be a number of reasons for this, for example:

• Not having a driver available who has route knowledge to Kirkby
• Using a cover driver who needs to have a break during the part of the diagram they are covering
• Using drivers at the start/end of their shifts to cover each part of the journey to/from Wigan

They could be other reasons, but unfortunately these things can be more complex than they appear to the passenger.

Sorry, I normally wouldn't reply to such posts (preferring to roll my eyes and click away) but seriously.. why should the passengers care what the reasons are? It's not *their* problem. As someone said to me the other day 'The client doesn't care how busy you are. They're paying the bill'

 

[Bertie the bus]

There could be a number of reasons for this, for example:

• Not having a driver available who has route knowledge to Kirkby
• Using a cover driver who needs to have a break during the part of the diagram they are covering
• Using drivers at the start/end of their shifts to cover each part of the journey to/from Wigan

They could be other reasons, but unfortunately these things can be more complex than they appear to the passenger.

Completely irrelevant and I fail to see why passengers should care. Trains run to a timetable. Employ enough staff to operate that timetable. There, not that complex is it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, I normally wouldn't reply to such posts (preferring to roll my eyes and click away) but seriously.. why should the passengers care what the reasons are? It's not *their* problem. As someone said to me the other day 'The client doesn't care how busy you are. They're paying the bill'

And if things were properly planned, they'd know the issue well in advance and the cancellation would be known in advance. Last minute cancellations are, unless a member of staff was taken ill there and then or was assaulted, just incompetent.

My impression of Northern is that, pretty much since day one, they have been floundering and firefighting.

 

[Haywain]

Completely irrelevant and I fail to see why passengers should care. Trains run to a timetable. Employ enough staff to operate that timetable. There, not that complex is it?

Not irrelevant when the OP was querying was querying why the service couldn't be operated. We all get frustrated by unexplained cancellations, but the TOCs will never have enough opportunity to explain every delay or cancellation in detail which is why they use relatively generic explanations.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Your response was irrelevant because the reason is because Northern don't employ enough staff. It's that simple. They, like many other TOCs, rely on rest day working to operate the basic timetable and the reason they do that is because it benefits them and rail staff who want to fill their boots with overtime. It has absolutely no benefit to passengers and the internal workings and employee agreements of the railway is of no interest or importance to passengers.

They don't even have the excuse of drivers needing training on new trains leaving them short handed. The 769s haven't turned a wheel on the main line yet and 195 & 331 testing / driver training stopped a few weeks ago due to issues with the units.

 

[yorkie]

Northern quote on their website that they "Put the Customer at the heart of all they do" (sic)
Good job they have that approach is I wouldn't like to see the service if they didn't

It's just something they say and don't really mean.

I've seen exactly how they treat customers, but I'll resist from using any words to describe how I feel about how this company has treated passengers in the past three years.

 

[Llanigraham]

Your response was irrelevant because the reason is because Northern don't employ enough staff. It's that simple. They, like many other TOCs, rely on rest day working to operate the basic timetable and the reason they do that is because it benefits them and rail staff who want to fill their boots with overtime. It has absolutely no benefit to passengers and the internal workings and employee agreements of the railway is of no interest or importance to passengers.

They don't even have the excuse of drivers needing training on new trains leaving them short handed. The 769s haven't turned a wheel on the main line yet and 195 & 331 testing / driver training stopped a few weeks ago due to issues with the units.

I think that part of the problem is that staff do NOT want to work overtime, so how they can be "filling their boots" I do not know.

 

[Gems]

Have you noticed how in general you don't get this problem on the east side. I'm not saying it runs perfectly all the time, but in general unless there is a serious problem the east side works quite well.

So what does that tell you Sherlock?. Tells me that these two former franchises should never have been brought together until some form of plan for harmonisation had been agreed. They are trying to bring it together now, the proposal is a 34 hour week for drivers and a big wad of cash, but it is all very 'hush, hush' Of course I'm not sure how every driver working an hour less will improve performance short term. But hey-ho, welcome to Northernland.

 

[Mathew S]

I regularly (though not every day due to my weird work pattern) commute to and from Pemberton, which is on the same line as the OP (Wigan to Kirkby). As a general rule, it's a really reliable service but, when it goes wrong it does tend to do it spectacularly. I only had one disrupted journey this week, which was due to a signal failure at Wigan, but the OP has my sympathies when it comes to extended waits in stations with no facilities, and an hour long gap between services.

From May 20th, most of the services on the Kirkby line will become shuttles to/from Wigan rather then running the whole route to/from Manchester. Whilst this will be annoying for me (and may well mean I don't actually use the line anymore) it should simplify the diagrams and so improve reliability for Liverpool-bound travellers such as @joke2711.

 

[philthetube]

Not irrelevant when the OP was querying was querying why the service couldn't be operated. We all get frustrated by unexplained cancellations, but the TOCs will never have enough opportunity to explain every delay or cancellation in detail which is why they use relatively generic explanations.

The op really doesn't care why the trains didn't run, he does not want excuses he wants trains which he can trust most of the time. As do all passengers.l

He probably accepts that things can and will go wrong occasionally but not on a daily basis.

 

[randyrippley]

There could be a number of reasons for this, for example:

• Not having a driver available who has route knowledge to Kirkby
• Using a cover driver who needs to have a break during the part of the diagram they are covering
• Using drivers at the start/end of their shifts to cover each part of the journey to/from Wigan

They could be other reasons, but unfortunately these things can be more complex than they appear to the passenger.

Any or all of that may be true, but the level of complexity has been around for years and Northern should be capable of dealing with it. Failure to do so is a sure sign of incompetence

 

[randyrippley]

....................From May 20th, most of the services on the Kirkby line will become shuttles to/from Wigan rather then running the whole route to/from Manchester. Whilst this will be annoying for me (and may well mean I don't actually use the line anymore) it should simplify the diagrams and so improve reliability for Liverpool-bound travellers ..............

So what should be a direct Liverpool-Manchester route gets further split into three parts rather than the current two............
Merseyrail third rail needs extending to Wigan ASAP and the whole route handed over to dual voltage EMUs

 

[Haywain]

Any or all of that may be true, but the level of complexity has been around for years and Northern should be capable of dealing with it. Failure to do so is a sure sign of incompetence

My comments were about how a vacant (through sickness) turn would be covered, not about the everyday diagrams. The complexity is that of drivers needing to 'know' the routes and traction they drive, and needing to observe restrictions on how long they can drive for without a break. The simple fact is that sickness can leave any (train) company struggling to find drivers when it goes beyond the anticipated level.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what should be a direct Liverpool-Manchester route gets further split into three parts rather than the current two............
Merseyrail third rail needs extending to Wigan ASAP and the whole route handed over to dual voltage EMUs

I'd resist that because Merseyrail works so well because it's a simple, self-contained network with limited reach. I'd agree to extending it to Wigan and possibly Preston, but it shouldn't run through past that as it will just get as unreliable as Northern if it does.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My comments were about how a vacant (through sickness) turn would be covered, not about the everyday diagrams. The complexity is that of drivers needing to 'know' the routes and traction they drive, and needing to observe restrictions on how long they can drive for without a break. The simple fact is that sickness can leave any (train) company struggling to find drivers when it goes beyond the anticipated level.

But the complex diagrams cause that issue. If a pair of traincrew just clocked on, picked up or took over a unit, and did Kirkby-Wigan and back (or whatever) until their break at which point another crew took over, if you didn't have one show up you'd know it was a simple case that you were going to have to cancel Kirkby-Wigan until the second crew took over, and you could get some buses or taxis in and alert passengers well in advance. The complex diagrams mean that the whole thing falls over like a house of cards.

Southern has recently made major changes to their network to reduce complexity and thus increase reliability in this way, and Northern need to do the same - even if it results in a need to cut frequencies and use longer trains instead.

And yes, the TOCs should be mandated to use overtime only for exceptions (e.g. excessive sickness) and never on a planned basis. This should be in all franchise agreements.

 

[philthetube]

My comments were about how a vacant (through sickness) turn would be covered, not about the everyday diagrams. The complexity is that of drivers needing to 'know' the routes and traction they drive, and needing to observe restrictions on how long they can drive for without a break. The simple fact is that sickness can leave any (train) company struggling to find drivers when it goes beyond the anticipated level.

These comments would be fine providing that the op experience was a rare occasion, however when similar happens week after week reasons become irrelevant and it just becomes incompetence.

I, and I am sure the op as well do not care whose incompetence it is, I just know that the railway is not doing it's job, which I pay for, on a regular basis.

I use Colne to preston, so trust me, I know what I am talking about

 

[northernchris]

Have you noticed how in general you don't get this problem on the east side. I'm not saying it runs perfectly all the time, but in general unless there is a serious problem the east side works quite well.

So what does that tell you Sherlock?. Tells me that these two former franchises should never have been brought together until some form of plan for harmonisation had been agreed. They are trying to bring it together now, the proposal is a 34 hour week for drivers and a big wad of cash, but it is all very 'hush, hush' Of course I'm not sure how every driver working an hour less will improve performance short term. But hey-ho, welcome to Northernland.

Indeed, in the east Northern aren't that bad at all. From my experience most delays are either down to being held outside Leeds to allow late TPE in/out, or external issues such as trespass. No surprise it's the ex First-run side which has the issues!

 

[randyrippley]

My comments were about how a vacant (through sickness) turn would be covered, not about the everyday diagrams. The complexity is that of drivers needing to 'know' the routes and traction they drive, and needing to observe restrictions on how long they can drive for without a break. The simple fact is that sickness can leave any (train) company struggling to find drivers when it goes beyond the anticipated level.

If it happens on a regular basis then their anticipated levels are wrong.
However you look at it, the problem is management incompetence

 

[Andyh82]

Have you noticed how in general you don't get this problem on the east side. I'm not saying it runs perfectly all the time, but in general unless there is a serious problem the east side works quite well.

So what does that tell you Sherlock?. Tells me that these two former franchises should never have been brought together until some form of plan for harmonisation had been agreed. They are trying to bring it together now, the proposal is a 34 hour week for drivers and a big wad of cash, but it is all very 'hush, hush' Of course I'm not sure how every driver working an hour less will improve performance short term. But hey-ho, welcome to Northernland.

Isn't harmonisation of two different pay and conditions easier said than done?

Presumably the unions would want all the best bits of ATN conditions and all the best bits of FNW conditions to be applied to everyone

Or alternative unions and staff wouldn't be happy if one side had lower pay rises to enable the other side to catch up?

 

[chiltern trev]

School holidays this week.

Drivers on holiday? Or not working overtime and rest days to be with the family or look after the children while the other half works?

Was your service ok the week before?

 

[londonmidland]

On a separate note, I’m surprised at the state of some of stations managed by Northern.

Stations between Oxford Road and Warrington Central (Trafford Park being one example) with the platform surface(s) in particular being in a very poor state.

Apart from the obvious change in livery have Arriva actually done anything regarding station facilities?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Daft question time, does anyone think that the current Northern franchise is too big and complex for one company to understand or allow them to get a grip of? I could see that two smaller franchises would provide more focus on us the passengers and hopefully stop the management focusing on running services to the profitable Marque lines and stations when there are problems and allow them to focus more on all the lines but still serve the unglamorous 1tp2h or unprofitable lines when things inevitably go tits up rather than pinching a driver to cover a Manchester Airport Marque service so a Blackpool or a Kirkby service don't run instead