Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[Rail Ranger]

Philip C,

This is only conjecture on my part but my guess would be that Northern have chosen to only implement the restrictions on non-PTE lines which are very heavily used in the peak, hence the Buxton line, Alderley Edge and the Harrogate and Skipton lines. They have not chosen the Macclesfield line because it has a two-tier service and most passengers for Macclesfield and Stoke use the fast trains. They have not chosen the mid-Cheshire line because it is not overcrowded in the evening peak. The restrictions are predicated on a gamble that many existing users of Off-Peak Day Returns and Cheap Evening Returns are prepared to pay more for their journeys. It could be argued that Cheap Evening Returns are ridiculously cheap but because they have never been adequately promoted all that happens is that people who would have travelled anyway pay a very low fare for their journeys.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well one good thing which may come out of it, the high evening peak TPE service from Manchester doesnt stop in Wigan as TPE thought it would be overloaded with commuters if it did. Perhaps now that this service will be priced as peak and discourage casual travel they could review it.

 

[mikeg]

Can I ask how come these changes aren't in NFM19? I've just downloaded it and it appears to be business as usual. Given that NFM19 applies from the time period specified how do Northern intend to introduce these changes? Rushing out another version of NFM19? Changing the restriction text but keeping the code the same (although the restriction text tends to be in NFM19 and can this even be changed after the fare-setting round?). I'm confused.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Can I ask how come these changes aren't in NFM19? I've just downloaded it and it appears to be business as usual. Given that NFM19 applies from the time period specified how do Northern intend to introduce these changes? Rushing out another version of NFM19? Changing the restriction text but keeping the code the same (although the restriction text tends to be in NFM19 and can this even be changed after the fare-setting round?). I'm confused.

I don't know about the public NFM19, but all the internal systems, including my Ticket Issuing System, Journey Planner, RJIS and the public NRES all seem to contain the new data and restrictions.
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I can imagine TPE and the InterCity operators being really impressed with this. Passengers who would normally take a Huddersfield-Wakefield Northern service going TPE to Leeds and East Coast to Wakey won't help TPE's overcrowding issues.

The restrictions will apply on all TOCs on the relevant routes, not just Northern.
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A Day Rover would still be valid on the route via Leeds on TPE/EC though.

No it wouldn't.
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That depends on how the restriction is worded. It does appear from the Metro website that the restriction on DayRovers may only apply on Northern, but until we actually see it...

Is anyone panic buying DayRovers on the existing scratch card stock from newsagents? The current T&Cs apply obviously, and some of them are dated up to 2016. I have heard that demand for them is rather high, and will only increase as the restrictions get more publicity. See Scratch-off West Yorkshire Day Rover - Conditions of Use

I do not have the full text to hand on my phone, but the restriction text in Journey Planner is the same text as that for the CDR restrictions, they carry the same restriction code.

I have yet to be convinced that the time restrictions cannot also be imposed on train travel after purchase.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Can I ask how come these changes aren't in NFM19? I've just downloaded it and it appears to be business as usual.

Just a quick check - have you set the date in Avantix Traveller to be 7th September or later, when the new NFM is in force?

 

[razor89]

I don't know about the public NFM19, but all the internal systems, including my Ticket Issuing System, Journey Planner, RJIS and the public NRES all seem to contain the new data and restrictions.

On my TIS the evening returns have gone but so have all the other fares!

EDIT: SOME fares are missing, namely for stations between Burscough Bridge and Manchester. Could be more but I haven't checked.

 

[northwichcat]

I've noticed no mention of Duo tickets on the Northern Rail site. Duo tickets generally have evening peak restrictions between 1601 and 1759 already and are only valid from 0930 even when the corresponding off-peak day return is valid earlier e.g. Alderley Edge-Manchester off-peak day return is valid from 09:15 but the Duo is valid from 09:30. Are Northern revising the Duo restrictions or keeping them the same to create an even more confusing system?
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Northern seem to have forgotten to colour a line in red on the new map they've put on their website: http://www.northernrail.org/tickets...um=Offline&utm_campaign=Off-peak-restrictions

 

[Emyr]

Overheard two staff discussing the changes at a station this morning; One pointed out a distinct lack of eyecatching posters advertising the change.

Has anyone seen anything or does someone at Northern have a cunning plan?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Northern's plan is to keep the change as quiet as possible, hoping nobody will notice, because it's going to be horrendous for them when people do realise what's happening.

As late as Friday Metro were denying all knowledge of changes to Day Rover tickets too.

Looks like they're in cahoots. God bless privatisation. Trebles all round for Serco fat cats.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern's plan is to keep the change as quiet as possible, hoping nobody will notice, because it's going to be horrendous for them when people do realise what's happening.

And then it'll be the ticket clerks and conductors who are left to break the bad news to passengers.

Northern were claiming they were looking for a solution to TVMs not issuing Evening Returns. They've found one now - by withdrawing the product!

 

[pdq]

Northern's plan is to keep the change as quiet as possible, hoping nobody will notice.

That will be difficult - it was all over Look North last night and on the BBC website.

When the piece came on, my wife couldn't understand the fuss, assuming any trains within the 'peak' (ie 'rush hour') had always counted as 'peak-time trains'.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And then it'll be the ticket clerks and conductors who are left to break the bad news to passengers.

I hope the frontline staff have extremely thick skins, because they're going to cop a lot of flack.

The managers responsible for this fiasco, of course, will be noticeable by their absence.

Good to see someone has noticed, the changes truly are disgraceful. But at least the Dutch will be smiling, eh?

 

[yorkie]

I have yet to be convinced that the time restrictions cannot also be imposed on train travel after purchase.

XC tried that, the DfT told them they're wrong

 

[northwichcat]

XC tried that, the DfT told them they're wrong

If I understand correctly it would breach the Sale of Goods Act except in exceptional conditions e.g. if TOC put a First Class Anytime Single fare in as £1.00 instead of £100 and the Standrad Class Anytime Single fare was £65.

 

[tom1649]

So if I'm travelling to, let's say, Dore and Totley from Manchester I can use an off peak return ticket in the evening peak because the journey isn't entirely within PTE (or red lines on the map) areas? Or if I'm having a day on the trains I can use a Wayfarer in the PTE area instead of the GM Rail Ranger and not worry about the evening peak? Is there a day ranger I can use in West Yorkshire during the evening peak that's equivalent to the Wayfarer i.e. more expensive? If not, might there be a market for a peak time version? I cannot always do my 'leisure' travelling at the weekend as I have to work some of them!

 

[Tetchytyke]

If I understand correctly it would breach the Sale of Goods Act except in exceptional conditions e.g. if TOC put a First Class Anytime Single fare in as £1.00 instead of £100 and the Standrad Class Anytime Single fare was £65.

Nope that would be binding too, if they accepted your cash. If they detected the mistake before taking the money it wouldn't be.

There was a case recently with East Midlands Trains making that exact mistake, and EMT honoured the tickets.

NRCoC 11 and 12 deal with this situation: ticket restrictions will be printed on the ticket and/or the seller will notify you of the restrictions at time of sale. NRCoC doesn't provide for retrospective changes to restrictions.

 

[Deerfold]

Is there a day ranger I can use in West Yorkshire during the evening peak that's equivalent to the Wayfarer i.e. more expensive? If not, might there be a market for a peak time version? I cannot always do my 'leisure' travelling at the weekend as I have to work some of them!

No. There might be a market for a peak time one - I've wished there's one that allowed travel before 0930 before now.

The last time I used a dayrover last Friday with my wife, we used a bus then the 1701 Northern service from Keighley to Leeds, the 1815 EC from Leeds to Wakefield and the 2322 EMT service from Wakefield to Leeds.

All three trains were quiet.

This will put the fare for that journey up from £11.80 to £22 and push us into the car.

 

[tom1649]

That's a big shame. I guess there'll be more days out in Manchester for me from now on then.

I always had the impression that WYPTE (Metro) were highly pro-rail, much more so than the GM equivalent, but as another poster said they seem to be indifferent about these changes. At the very least they could be planning an alternative peak time ticket, but there is no sign of this happening. Disappointing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I always had the impression that WYPTE (Metro) were highly pro-rail, much more so than the GM equivalent, but as another poster said they seem to be indifferent about these changes.

The changes are supposedly being driven by the cretins in Horseferry Road, and I suspect that WYPTE have been held over a barrel. Their attitude seems to be "go ask Northern why they're doing it", which makes me think they're not happy but can't be seen to be disagreeing.

 

[Starmill]

I have encountered a lot of problems with Northern's TVMs and restriciton information recently. Aside from the really obvious ones like them trying to sell you a Concession ticket in West Yorkshire, their S and B ones seem to seriously dislike giving you any restriction information at all. You think that 'I' is a button? Well, not always... another problem occurs on loads of machines where a railcard discount is added. The railcard "restrictions" (if you can call them that?) are either shown instead of the actual ticket restrictions or are shown all mixed up within them (e.g Two Together Railcard might produce "OUTWARD: Not valid before 0930. Not valid before 1000.")- the 'return' restrictions for most railcards just read "restrictions apply - please check" or something, because of course they needed something to go in that field but there isn't anything! If people are going to use these things to check restrictions, expect confusion and more difficulty on both sides.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

XC tried that, the DfT told them they're wrong

Nope that would be binding too, if they accepted your cash. If they detected the mistake before taking the money it wouldn't be.

There was a case recently with East Midlands Trains making that exact mistake, and EMT honoured the tickets.

NRCoC 11 and 12 deal with this situation: ticket restrictions will be printed on the ticket and/or the seller will notify you of the restrictions at time of sale. NRCoC doesn't provide for retrospective changes to restrictions.

With "normal" rail tickets I agree, but Metro isn't selling a rail ticket, it is selling a multi modal ticket that train companies happen to accept. They will be issued to WYPTE's conditions, and what says they can't change those?

 

[Deerfold]

With "normal" rail tickets I agree, but Metro isn't selling a rail ticket, it is selling a multi modal ticket that train companies happen to accept. They will be issued to WYPTE's conditions, and what says they can't change those?

What about train-only day rovers printed on orange stock but bought in advance?

 

[shinkansen1966]

At least Northern Rail were honest about their reasons for adding the off peak ticket restrictions.
http://www.northernrail.org/news/7507
"Department for Transport asked Northern to look at several options to help reduce subsidy"

 

[Harpers Tate]

I have a passionate hatred for "spin".
So when, on the one hand, you have Northern saying it's done at the request of, or with the agreement of the DFT to reduce subsidy, but then on the other hand the same organisation saying how few people will be affected by it, that's spin pure and simple because the two things are mutually contradictory.

It either WILL affect enough people to make a material effect on revenue, or it won't. Can't have it both ways.

Of course, if it shifts loads away from peak trains (with minimal effect on revenue) then it's surely a good thing - but isn't going to have much effect on subsidy requirement - because they aren't suddenly going to shorten the (mostly already minimal) trains.

 

[Deerfold]

Of course, if it shifts loads away from peak trains (with minimal effect on revenue) then it's surely a good thing - but isn't going to have much effect on subsidy requirement - because they aren't suddenly going to shorten the (mostly already minimal) trains.

I can see that being a good thing on the trains out of Leeds. However other services are quiet at those times. I used to regularly cacth the 1750 and 1800 from Keighley to Leeds on a Monday and the only time I remember them being even vaguely busy was the time we got a one-carriage
effort on the 1750.

1830 seems rather late too - in my experience even the trains out of Leeds have quietened down by that time.

 

[jkdd77]

With "normal" rail tickets I agree, but Metro isn't selling a rail ticket, it is selling a multi modal ticket that train companies happen to accept. They will be issued to WYPTE's conditions, and what says they can't change those?

The WYPTE conditions form part of a contract for travel using multiple methods of transport.

In relation to the rail travel permitted by the contract, the terms of the contract are themselves subject to the NRCoC, with the ticket itself merely providing evidence of the contract that was entered into, as required to be possessed and produced on demand in order to satisfy railway byelaws and the byelaws of the other operators, such as those relating to bus travel.

Unless WYPTE's conditions expressly allow for subsequent unilateral changes (which I very much doubt), the terms of the contract for travel, including time restrictions relating to rail travel, are set at the point of purchase.

WYPTE are, of course, free to amend conditions for future purchasers (defined to include those who, after the publication of the new restriction, purchase the right to travel, on a date after the implementation of the restriction), but not to unilaterally change the terms of contracts previously entered into to the detriment of the purchaser.

Therefore, a WYPTE ticket purchased back in June for travel on September 8th would be subject to the restrictions advertised at the time of purchase, and so could travel in the 'evening peak'. The same ticket purchased today, at the same price, for travel on September 8th, would be subject to the currently advertised restrictions, and so cannot travel in the 'evening peak'.

Legislation trumps contracts, so any change to byelaws subsequent to the purchase of the right to travel would bind the passenger regardless of whether it was to their detriment.

 

[Manchester77]

There's going to be a piece on BBC north west tonight about this by the sounds of things.
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The piece has just been on, it's about what's in the consultation document about reducing services and closing underused stations. They then went onto interview Tony Miles who talked about the consultation and mentioned the peak restrictions. Sorry if any confusion was caused however the preview bit was very vague.

 

[table38]

At the moment, all of Northern's publicity seems to be all about the peak restrictions; nothing about the loss of the Cheap Evening Returns around Manchester.

If I was on Twitter, I'd be tempted to send Northern something along the lines of "with inflation around 2%, why do you think it is appropriate to DOUBLE the price of some fares" and let them try to answer that in 140 characters or less

Although I'm sure you would get something back about "only a minority of people being affected" which then sort of leads back nicely to Harpers Tate's point that if only a few people are affected, it isn't going to save you much money then is it?

 

[Starmill]

At the moment, all of Northern's publicity seems to be all about the peak restrictions; nothing about the loss of the Cheap Evening Returns around Manchester.

If I was on Twitter, I'd be tempted to send Northern something along the lines of "with inflation around 2%, why do you think it is appropriate to DOUBLE the price of some fares" and let them try to answer that in 140 characters or less

Although I'm sure you would get something back about "only a minority of people being affected" which then sort of leads back nicely to Harpers Tate's point that if only a few people are affected, it isn't going to save you much money then is it?

They just ignore everything like that that you tweet them.

 

[Kite159]

They just ignore everything like that that you tweet them.

Blaming it on "an excessive number" of tweets being received so they can't answer everything.