Northern to stop selling AP On the Day from their ticket offices

[Philip]

Not sure whether or not it is across the board but Northern are scrapping the sale of advance tickets from their booking offices from Tues 15th. Don't know if they'll still be available online or at TVMs but it's a bit more chipping away of the ticket office role - and will probably lead to more instances of passengers holding invalid tickets for the train they're travelling on.

 

[Watershed]

Not sure whether or not it is across the board but Northern are scrapping the sale of advance tickets from their booking offices from Tues 15th. Don't know if they'll still be available online or at TVMs but it's a bit more chipping away of the ticket office role - and will probably lead to more instances of passengers holding invalid tickets for the train they're travelling on.

That's ridiculous - it's one of the things that ticket offices are best suited to.

 

[Philip]

Just to give a bit more clarity, it is just advance on departure tickets being removed from offices; ticket offices will still be able to sell advance tickets a day or more in advance of the train departure. Advance on departure tickets will still be available for purchase online.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to give a bit more clarity, it is just advance on departure tickets being removed from offices; ticket offices will still be able to sell advance tickets a day or more in advance of the train departure. Advance on departure tickets will still be available for purchase online.

And at TVMs, or not at the station at all (bar on your phone)?

 

[Philip]

And at TVMs, or not at the station at all (bar on your phone)?

They'll be available from TVMs, not sure when the cut off point before the departure will be though.

 

[skyhigh]

Just to give a bit more clarity, it is just advance on departure tickets being removed from offices; ticket offices will still be able to sell advance tickets a day or more in advance of the train departure. Advance on departure tickets will still be available for purchase online.

I'm sorry but you've completely murdered that brief. It is advance purchase on the day tickets that are no longer available from ticket offices. They will still be sold from apps and TVMs as they are now, and ticket offices will continue to sell advances before the date of travel. As the brief says, the plan is to remove that type of ticket completely in the medium to long term, in which case ticket offices will not be disadvantaged. I do think it's odd they are being removed from some but not all points of sale now though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sorry but you've completely murdered that brief. It is advance purchase on the day tickets that are no longer available from ticket offices. They will still be sold from apps and TVMs as they are now, and ticket offices will continue to sell advances before the date of travel. As the brief says, the plan is to remove that type of ticket completely in the medium to long term, in which case ticket offices will not be disadvantaged. I do think it's odd they are being removed from some but not all points of sale now though.

They're removing APOD in favour of regular interavailable walk-ups? Interesting - have they not been successful? I thought Northern liked them.

 

[Philip]

I'm sorry but you've completely murdered that brief. It is advance purchase on the day tickets that are no longer available from ticket offices. They will still be sold from apps and TVMs as they are now, and ticket offices will continue to sell advances before the date of travel. As the brief says, the plan is to remove that type of ticket completely in the medium to long term, in which case ticket offices will not be disadvantaged. I do think it's odd they are being removed from some but not all points of sale now though.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said in the post you quoted! Advance on departure tickets means the same as advance purchase on the day, which I clarified as the tickets being removed from ticket office sale.

 

[skyhigh]

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said in the post you quoted! Advance on departure tickets means the same as advance purchase on the day, which I clarified as the tickets being removed from ticket office sale.

Firstly you neglected to mention it was only APOD that was no longer available, and you also missed out what the second half of the brief said regarding removal of the ticket type. Taking the brief at its word, it's very much not anti-ticket office.

They're removing APOD in favour of regular interavailable walk-ups? Interesting - have they not been successful? I thought Northern liked them.

I think the general feeling is APOD is causing too many conflicts. It's a shame though as they do offer value for passengers who can't plan further ahead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the general feeling is APOD is causing too many conflicts. It's a shame though as they do offer value for passengers who can't plan further ahead.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to see them abolished. They struck me as existing to try to snipe money off TPE (and vice versa) by only offering very slightly cheaper tickets (when booking a return journey, as most people are - they were handy for a genuine single trip), but that Northern couldn't do TOC specific walk-ups because they set the main fare. As a whole in the North TOC specific tickets without a very substantial price difference (at least 10%) should go for the same reason.

However, I did think for that reason that Northern liked them! Perhaps that was old Arriva Northern.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

However, I did think for that reason that Northern liked them!

Be interesting to compare how much revenue Northern retain from selling "Northern only" Advance tickets compared with TOC inter-available walk up tickets for the same origin/destination. However, are we drifting off topic as regards the original premise of this thread?

 

[Philip]

Firstly you neglected to mention it was only APOD that was no longer available, and you also missed out what the second half of the brief said regarding removal of the ticket type. Taking the brief at its word, it's very much not anti-ticket office.

All of which I explained in the second post after looking at the brief. Of course it is anti-ticket office; it is removing a segment of a ticket type from the ticket office range, whilst still being available on other channels. It's also disadvantaging the people who cannot pay by card, as the TVMs at most or all Northern station only take card payment, so people travelling at the time who can only pay by cash will have to go to the ticket office for a full price off peak/anytime ticket.

 

[TUC]

I'm sorry but you've completely murdered that brief. It is advance purchase on the day tickets that are no longer available from ticket offices. They will still be sold from apps and TVMs as they are now, and ticket offices will continue to sell advances before the date of travel. As the brief says, the plan is to remove that type of ticket completely in the medium to long term, in which case ticket offices will not be disadvantaged.

But doesn't the plan to remove that type of ticket leave passengers disadvantage, in having to pay more?

 

[yorksrob]

A friend of mine recently bought a very competitively priced (compared to the alternative train fares) Northern only return from Manchester to Leeds. This sort of thing strikes me as a lot more useful to me than an advanced purchase on the day that is just below the competing price.

 

[TUC]

A friend of mine recently bought a very competitively priced (compared to the alternative train fares) Northern only return from Manchester to Leeds. This sort of thing strikes me as a lot more useful to me than an advanced purchase on the day that is just below the competing price.

Both are good. Why not just let the market determine the best prices to offer to passengers rather than setting rules on what will or will not be offered on the day?

 

[yorksrob]

Both are good. Why not just let the market determine the best prices to offer to passengers rather than setting rules on what will or will not be offered on the day?

Fair point. I have no particular objection to these AP tickets as they can't boot anyone out of their seat.

I would always prefer parity between purchasing modes though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair point. I have no particular objection to these AP tickets as they can't boot anyone out of their seat.

I would always prefer parity between purchasing modes though.

I would say all tickets should be available from all points of sale as a mandatory rule.

However, I would also say that for a TOC only ticket (whether walk-up or Advance*) there should be a deep discount (min 10%). Discounting tickets by 10p so they appear first in the planner is not helpful to anyone.

* Based on a return journey, as that is what most people are doing.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I recently had cause to use APOD from Deansgate to Manchester Airport, and it was the ticket office clerk at Deansgate who suggested it after asking me if I was doing a return (I wasn't). So it's a very regrettable change.

Cynically, it will also further undermine ticket office staff as they'll be in a position of telling customers the TVM will give them a cheaper ticket or, worse, making ticket office staff look like they're deliberately overcharging people.

 

[Kite159]

Fair point. I have no particular objection to these AP tickets as they can't boot anyone out of their seat.

I would always prefer parity between purchasing modes though.

Although there is always the risk that you can't get a seat when Northern sell cheap advances for peak time trains (on routes where they would get near enough 100% of the revenue)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I recently had cause to use APOD from Deansgate to Manchester Airport, and it was the ticket office clerk at Deansgate who suggested it after asking me if I was doing a return (I wasn't). So it's a very regrettable change.

It's handy if you're doing a genuine single journey (I've used one once for that reason), but if you price your walk-up singles at half the relevant returns that fixes it, too, without people ending up with Penalty Fares because they got on a different train on a high frequency urban route. Some of these APODs (e.g. on the Leeds suburban EMU services) are a bit like if the Metropolitan Line or Merseyrail had Advances, and I think we'd all agree that would be ludicrous. Whereas I can't really see an issue with them on medium distance expresses like Barrow or Windermere, where if one train is a 3-car and the one an hour later is 6, you might want to price as many people as possible onto the latter. Or for Manchester to Preston, you want to price people onto the 6-car Blackpools off the presently 3-car Barrow/Windermeres.

 

[yorksrob]

Although there is always the risk that you can't get a seat when Northern sell cheap advances for peak time trains (on routes where they would get near enough 100% of the revenue)

There's always that risk on a busy train anyway ! At least if you're on a Northern stopper, the chances are you'll get a seat somewhere down the line.

 

[Llandudno]

It's handy if you're doing a genuine single journey (I've used one once for that reason), but if you price your walk-up singles at half the relevant returns that fixes it, too, without people ending up with Penalty Fares because they got on a different train on a high frequency urban route. Some of these APODs (e.g. on the Leeds suburban EMU services) are a bit like if the Metropolitan Line or Merseyrail had Advances, and I think we'd all agree that would be ludicrous. Whereas I can't really see an issue with them on medium distance expresses like Barrow or Windermere, where if one train is a 3-car and the one an hour later is 6, you might want to price as many people as possible onto the latter. Or for Manchester to Preston, you want to price people onto the 6-car Blackpools off the presently 3-car Barrow/Windermeres.

Far too logical…!

 

[yorksrob]

I would say all tickets should be available from all points of sale as a mandatory rule.

However, I would also say that for a TOC only ticket (whether walk-up or Advance*) there should be a deep discount (min 10%). Discounting tickets by 10p so they appear first in the planner is not helpful to anyone.

* Based on a return journey, as that is what most people are doing.

Yes, I agree that any discount should be substantive.

 

[Kite159]

There's always that risk on a busy train anyway ! At least if you're on a Northern stopper, the chances are you'll get a seat somewhere down the line.

Unless it's a Northern stopper between Sheffield & Manchester when TPE has collapsed

 

[yorksrob]

Unless it's a Northern stopper between Sheffield & Manchester when TPE has collapsed

Oh yes, that goes without saying

 

[gray1404]

Are Northern allowed to do this? Is a ticket office not meant to offer the cheapest available fare?

So we could end up with the situation whereby a non Northern rail ticket office is still selling advance purchase on the day tickets for Northern services but Northern run ticket offices are not selling them.

What would happen if a customer approaches a Northern run ticket office and once an advance purchase on the day ticket for another train company? Are they going to refuse to sell this as well?

 

[Haywain]

So we could end up with the situation whereby a non Northern rail ticket office is still selling advance purchase on the day tickets for Northern services but Northern run ticket offices are not selling them.

No, you couldn't. They have been withdrawn for sale at all staffed sales points.

 

[_toommm_]

I was really disheartened to go to Leeds today to buy an Advance and a PlusBus, to be told they’re no longer allowed to sell advance tickets. It seems such a shame that they’re no longer allowed to sell Northern advances, plus it makes them seem like they’re more expensive, when they’re really not.

 

[Haywain]

I was really disheartened to go to Leeds today to buy an Advance and a PlusBus, to be told they’re no longer allowed to sell advance tickets. It seems such a shame that they’re no longer allowed to sell Northern advances, plus it makes them seem like they’re more expensive, when they’re really not.

Was this for travel today, or for another day?

 

[JRT]

Range of 'flows' for which there is an advance on the day ticket available 5 minutes before scheduled departure time is available has expanded from the December timetable change to include Hebden Bridge to Manchester and remarkably short-distance fares on the North Bradford Electrics.