Northern unable to deliver Sunday service

[PHILIPE]

It is really terrible how often late at night at a lot of stations you'll just be connected to National Rail Enquiries somewhere out of the UK, who don't have a clue where you even are and have no way of helping you apart from going "the next train is in six hours"

Customer service at it worst but NRES are not the direct customer

 

[Kite159]

It is really terrible how often late at night at a lot of stations you'll just be connected to National Rail Enquiries somewhere out of the UK, who don't have a clue where you even are and have no way of helping you apart from going "the next train is in six hours"

At least you get connected, rather than the help-point just ringing and ringing with nothing happening on the other side. Although getting connected to National Rail Enquires is rather useless at times.

 

[td97]

Four months later, it seems the lack of a rest day working agreement has for the most part resolved the north-west Sunday working issue.

 

[175001]

Thanks to some pre planned cancellations

 

[northwichcat]

Thanks to some pre planned cancellations

Even allowing for that this Sunday has looked better than Easter Sunday and the Sundays in March when things were really bad.

 

[175001]

Agreed but it still isn't a full service

 

[Moonshot]

Agreed but it still isn't a full service

Which won't happen until all staff have employment contracts which have Sundays as a normal working day. That is simply not going to happen for a long time.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Which won't happen until all staff have employment contracts which have Sundays as a normal working day. That is simply not going to happen for a long time.

The reality is that some depots, at least in normal times, actually do manage to cover all their Sunday jobs even without Sundays inside the rosters. Not surprisingly staff at those depots are particularly keen on maintaining the status quo. But should it ever happen you can bet that the loudest complaints will come from those depots which currently struggle with Sunday coverage. A thorny issue for sure!

 

[wobman]

The reality is that some depots, at least in normal times, actually do manage to cover all their Sunday jobs even without Sundays inside the rosters. Not surprisingly staff at those depots are particularly keen on maintaining the status quo. But should it ever happen you can bet that the loudest complaints will come from those depots which currently struggle with Sunday coverage. A thorny issue for sure!

Sundays as a full working day is a very complicated issue, it will require lots of negotiations and money to resolve.
The employment of extra staff will also take time, Northern attempted it in the past but that failed.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern did use to manage a full Sunday service in the past. 'Full' does often exclude services on lines closed for engineering works which makes it easier to find a sufficient number of crews.

 

[scrapy]

Northern did use to manage a full Sunday service in the past. 'Full' does often exclude services on lines closed for engineering works which makes it easier to find a sufficient number of crews.

In the past though

-Crewe to Manchester was every 2 hours instead of hourly
-Mid Cheshire only ran Altrincham to Chester every 3 hours instead of every 2 hours full route now
-There were only 3 trains each way Stoke to Manchester
-There was no service on the Cumbrian Coast
-There was no service on the Atherton line, and when first introduced no evening service until 2018
-There was no service between Manchester and Blackburn via Todmorden
-Northern only ran 1tph between Manchester and Liverpool via Warrington

They did run 1tph Man Vic to Huddersfield though that they don't now

 

[northwichcat]

-Mid Cheshire only ran Altrincham to Chester every 3 hours instead of every 2 hours full route now

As part of a 'temporary cut' that lasted around 15 years. The full route was restored around 2008 as part of a Chester to Southport service, before becoming a separate service around 5 years ago when it was supposed to have gone hourly. Northern haven't been struggling to find crews continuously since 2008 or if they have it's not been obvious to the passengers.

 

[Starmill]

The Atherton line had a second service per hour introduced in December 2017. It did not last long. However, the evening service was introduced then, and luckily that has remained.

 

[Moonshot]

Just to add a bit more to this, ASLEF are balloting Northern drivers for strike action over pay. It's almost a given that a yes vote will be returned, and following on from that, it's highly likely that Sundays will be a day to attract actual strike action.

 

[dk1]

Just to add a bit more to this, ASLEF are balloting Northern drivers for strike action over pay. It's almost a given that a yes vote will be returned, and following on from that, it's highly likely that Sundays will be a day to attract actual strike action.

I’ve found it the opposite in the past at my TOC. Sunday is the only day not affected so drivers will volunteer or be less likely to dump them as overtime & FDW is off limits.

 

[Starmill]

I’ve found it the opposite in the past at my TOC. Sunday is the only day not affected so drivers will volunteer or be less likely to dump them as overtime & FDW is off limits.

I'm sure that Fridays and Saturdays will also be affected.

 

[dk1]

I'm sure that Fridays and Saturdays will also be affected.

I’m confused by what you mean? I’m talking about Sundays having plenty of traincrew availability to make their pay up. Fridays & particularly Saturdays will take a huge hit disruption wise.

 

[Starmill]

I’m confused by what you mean? I’m talking about Sundays having plenty of traincrew availability to make their pay up. Fridays & particularly Saturdays will take a huge hit disruption wise.

I mean that it's likely that Industrial action will be taking place on all three of these days, as on many routes these are the busiest days of the week. The popularity of Sundays as a date for industrial action generally varies by location depending on what type of contract with respect to Sunday staff are on at that location.

 

[wobman]

I mean that it's likely that Industrial action will be taking place on all three of these days, as on many routes these are the busiest days of the week. The popularity of Sundays as a date for industrial action generally varies by location depending on what type of contract with respect to Sunday staff are on at that location.

Its a complicated subject as Sundays are non working days for tocs without it being part of the working week, many Tocs cover Sundays with committed overtime and overtime volunteers only.

 

[northwichcat]

I mean that it's likely that Industrial action will be taking place on all three of these days, as on many routes these are the busiest days of the week. The popularity of Sundays as a date for industrial action generally varies by location depending on what type of contract with respect to Sunday staff are on at that location.

Disrupting leisure passengers might have the biggest impact on the operator's finances, meaning they want to resolve the dispute quickly. But it isn't resolved quickly then we might see the railways permanently losing passengers, who find alternative ways of travelling and long term results in staffing numbers reducing. I think COVID provided a lucky escape for the damage the RMT strikes caused to leisure travel on Northern, forcing people to stay at home for so long means they want to go out more and Saturday trains are rammed again. Pre-COVID it was looking like the RMT had killed off a lot of leisure travel.

 

[LowLevel]

Saturdays are a popular day for strike action at least partly because you're more likely to get people to stick with the action - it doesn't take much to persuade people that they don't want to go in to work on a Saturday given the appalling behaviour of a proportion of "customers", it is also less likely that "contingency" staff will agree to work and they often can't be compelled as it's outside their normal working hours.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme haven't had a proper Sunday service since pre-COVID!

 

[northwichcat]

Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme haven't had a proper Sunday service since pre-COVID!

If by proper level of service you mean something to suit current demand and in line with the requirements that were set out in the franchise agreement between DfT and Arriva, then I think many of the local routes around Manchester are being short changed.

 

[Llandudno]

If by proper level of service you mean something to suit current demand and in line with the requirements that were set out in the franchise agreement between DfT and Arriva, then I think many of the local routes around Manchester are being short changed.

At least they have the 192 bus every few minutes!

No such luxury on the mid Cheshire line, (Manchester-Northwich-Chester) a handful of trains on Sundays and no buses!

 

[Bletchleyite]

At least they have the 192 bus every few minutes!

No such luxury on the mid Cheshire line, (Manchester-Northwich-Chester) a handful of trains on Sundays and no buses!

To be fair the Hazel Grove line is urban (should really have 4tph Merseyrail style were there paths) and the Mid-Cheshire Line rural past Hale.

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair the Hazel Grove line is urban (should really have 4tph Merseyrail style were there paths) and the Mid-Cheshire Line rural past Hale.

Providing a high frequency service to Hazel Grove and poor frequency on other routes would encourage people to drive to Hazel Grove. To avoid people switching to cars Hazel Grove should have a similar frequency to Poynton, Bramall, New Mills, Whaley Bridge etc.

I wouldn't class the entire Chester to Hale section as rural. In fact I think Chester to Rock Ferry might be more rural overall.

 

[Llandudno]

Providing a high frequency service to Hazel Grove and poor frequency on other routes would encourage people to drive to Hazel Grove. To avoid people switching to cars Hazel Grove should have a similar frequency to Poynton, Bramall, New Mills, Whaley Bridge etc.

I wouldn't class the entire Chester to Hale section as rural. In fact I think Chester to Rock Ferry might be more rural overall.

Chester to Hooton maybe classed as rural, I wouldn’t consider Hooton to Rock Ferry to be rural though and that is why Merseyrail run 6 trains per hour

 

[northwichcat]

Chester to Hooton maybe classed as rural, I wouldn’t consider Hooton to Rock Ferry to be rural though and that is why Merseyrail run 6 trains per hour

I remember, as part of the frequency enhanced plan, it was originally proposed that two of the services would run non-stop between Chester and Birkenhead. However, in the end Merseytravel decided the advantage of Wirral passengers being always able to board the next train at Liverpool, outweighed the advantage of fast journey times between Chester and Liverpool. It does mean that timings are confusing at Wirral stations given Ellesmere Port to Liverpool is half-hourly and Chester to Liverpool is every 15 minutes. It used to be relatively clock face when both services were half-hourly.

I didn't say Chester to Rock Ferry was rural, I say it may be overall more rural than Hale to Chester. If unleaded petrol was £1.85 a litre at one petrol station and £1.90 at another, saying one is cheaper than the other isn't the same as saying £1.85 is cheap.

If you drive along the A559 you'll see that Northwich is very urban right through from Lostock Gralam to Northwich to Castle to Greenbank to Hartford. There's no farmland separating the town from the neighbouring villages. If anything it's overdeveloped as they've built too much on a flood plain and on former mining sites, that were prone to subsidence. Knutsford and Chester have rural villages either side of them. But I wouldn't actually say Mobberley is more rural than Port Sunlight. The poor location of the station in relation to the village centre gives the wrong impression. Historically there was a large Ilford photo works in the village, so there's a similarity with the Unilever works in Port Sunlight, even if Mobberley isn't a model village. Today part of the Ilford photo site remains under Harman Technology and the other part of it has been developed in to further housing. Even Knutsford is becoming more urban, as part of housing plans green space between the Longridge estate and Mobberley will disappear, while Knutsford and Tabley will effectively become a continuous urban area. There have been calls for a second station in Knutsford, near Parkgate, to support the additional housing and industrial developments. Even Plumley isn't the sleepy village it may appear at first glance, as it houses a MoD fuel facility, linked by pipeline to Stanlow.

 

[Jamesrob637]

If by proper level of service you mean something to suit current demand and in line with the requirements that were set out in the franchise agreement between DfT and Arriva, then I think many of the local routes around Manchester are being short changed.

2 trains an hour each way like what they used to have.

 

[northwichcat]

2 trains an hour each way like what they used to have.

Not in the case of Stoke, 5 trains over the course of the day which is roughly 3 hourly. I'm surprised you didn't know this given that's the underlying cause for the inconsistent calling pattern at Levenshulme. The 11:20 Levenshulme to Manchester is from Stoke, the 12:25 is from Chester but there's no departure at around 13:20 as neither the Stoke or Chester service run that hour. Then the following hour you get two services very close together as both the Chester and Stoke services run.

I think the missing Hazel Grove services are another reason but they were only introduced relatively recently as additional services, so without them Hazel Grove to Manchester has reverted to hourly on Sundays

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 May 2022 ==

For tomorrow Journey Check is already showing the following cancellations:

Sun, 15 May 08:17 Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street due 09:03

Sun, 15 May 08:20 Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western due 08:57

Sun, 15 May 08:21 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 09:28

Sun, 15 May 09:20 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 10:30

Sun, 15 May 09:27 Wigan North Western to Manchester Victoria due 10:04

Sun, 15 May 09:59 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield due 10:40

Sun, 15 May 10:17 Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street due 11:02

Sun, 15 May 10:19 Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western due 10:56

Sun, 15 May 10:20 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 11:36

Sun, 15 May 10:43 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly due 11:22

Sun, 15 May 10:52 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street due 12:00

Sun, 15 May 11:27 Wigan North Western to Manchester Victoria due 12:06

Sun, 15 May 11:33 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield due 12:12

Sun, 15 May 11:53 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street due 13:01

Sun, 15 May 12:15 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly due 12:52

Sun, 15 May 12:16 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 13:28

Sun, 15 May 12:19 Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western due 12:56

Sun, 15 May 13:03 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield due 13:42

Sun, 15 May 13:13 Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool Lime Street due 14:01

Sun, 15 May 13:20 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 14:27

Sun, 15 May 13:26 Wigan North Western to Manchester Victoria due 14:03

Sun, 15 May 13:45 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly due 14:24

Sun, 15 May 13:53 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street due 15:01

Sun, 15 May 14:16 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 15:27

Sun, 15 May 14:20 Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western due 14:57

Sun, 15 May 14:33 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield due 15:12

Sun, 15 May 14:53 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street due 16:01

Sun, 15 May 15:15 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly due 15:58

Sun, 15 May 15:20 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 16:27

Sun, 15 May 15:27 Wigan North Western to Manchester Victoria due 16:04

Sun, 15 May 15:53 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street due 17:00

Sun, 15 May 16:03 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield due 16:42

Sun, 15 May 16:16 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 17:27

Sun, 15 May 16:20 Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western due 16:57

Sun, 15 May 16:45 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly due 17:24

Sun, 15 May 16:53 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street due 18:00

Sun, 15 May 17:20 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 18:27

Sun, 15 May 17:27 Wigan North Western to Manchester Victoria due 18:05

Sun, 15 May 17:33 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield due 18:12

Sun, 15 May 17:53 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street due 19:01

Sun, 15 May 18:15 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly due 18:58

Sun, 15 May 18:20 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 19:27

Sun, 15 May 18:20 Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western due 18:57

Sun, 15 May 19:03 Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield due 19:42

Sun, 15 May 19:20 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 20:28

Sun, 15 May 19:27 Wigan North Western to Manchester Victoria due 20:04

Sun, 15 May 19:45 Hadfield to Manchester Piccadilly due 20:24

Sun, 15 May 19:53 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street due 21:00

Sun, 15 May 20:20 Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western due 20:57

Sun, 15 May 21:23 Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Airport due 22:30

Sun, 15 May 21:27 Wigan North Western to Manchester Victoria due 22:05

Sun, 15 May 22:19 Manchester Victoria to Wigan North Western due 22:56

Sun, 15 May 22:52 Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street due 00:05

Sun, 15 May 23:21 Wigan North Western to Manchester Victoria due 23:59

There's also quite a lot of cancellations this evening, including some last trains.