Northern's Problems in the North West

[B&I]

However 'enraged' you are and however justifiable that emotion is, your suggestion that Arriva be stripped of the franchise is childish at best when, as you demonstrate in the rest of your comment, you don't understand the issues they have faced. I talked to a member of senior Northern management who told me that they wanted to postpone the timetable change until Network Rail completed the electrification because of the huge problems all those delays would inevitably cause them and passengers but the DfT prevented them from doing so on account of all timetable across the country being linked. Why therefore should Northern be penalised for the problems that they have been forced into? Clearly they have messed up in a big way with some things but they have a contract with the government and will be held to account for their appropriate level of culpability.

Like you I am frustrated by my train journey sometimes but I am trying to understand the problems before ranting about it and there is so much at play here that makes me feel that you are directing your enragement in the wrong places.

If this is the case, I wish they'd come out in public and say it. If the ultimate blame lies with the DfT, then everyone should know about it

 

[notlob.divad]

If this is the case, I wish they'd come out in public and say it. If the ultimate blame lies with the DfT, then everyone should know about it

But that would defeat the point of privatisation which is ultimately a method for ministers and their minions to pass the buck.

Mixed in amongst the Northern issues and today's unfortunate incident at Rainhill, looking at the times on RTT it seems TPE have as much of an underlying problem. Trains turning short on both sides of thethe pennines, arriving in Leeds and sitting for 40 minutes, and 10 minute delays whenever you approach Manchester. Combined with a total lack of flexibility across the central section and delays are just being compounded everywhere.

Whilst both train companies clearly have made mistakes, and things have been rushed, they cannot be blamed for inherent weaknesses and inflexibility in the timetable.

 

[B&I]

But that would defeat the point of privatisation which is ultimately a method for ministers and their minions to pass the buck.

Mixed in amongst the Northern issues and today's unfortunate incident at Rainhill, looking at the times on RTT it seems TPE have as much of an underlying problem. Trains turning short on both sides of thethe pennines, arriving in Leeds and sitting for 40 minutes, and 10 minute delays whenever you approach Manchester. Combined with a total lack of flexibility across the central section and delays are just being compounded everywhere.

Whilst both train companies clearly have made mistakes, and things have been rushed, they cannot be blamed for inherent weaknesses and inflexibility in the timetable.

Whose fault is it when a timetable is required to be implemented when the infrastructure necessary to make it a reality does not exist, and isn't even in the programme ? That's not a rhetorical question BTW

 

[Jimmy Foster]

If this is the case, I wish they'd come out in public and say it. If the ultimate blame lies with the DfT, then everyone should know about it

As if they're gonna criticise the DfT when they rely on them to get the next franchise ... if they want one after Northern!!!

 

[nr758123]

From a passenger perspective, this level of service is not satisfactory or acceptable. I don’t understand how anyone can suggest that it is. So what’s the remedy? Should we as passengers all keep quiet, and should Andy Burnham and our other elected representatives keep quiet, in the hope that it will be sorted out reasonably quickly?

It's hardly surprising that people are suggesting Northern should be stripped of the franchise, when they have been consistently failing to provide the contracted service and have done nothing to indicate to their passengers that they have a plan to bring things back to the required standard.

 

[gazzaa2]

If there is one thing that I’m bored of hearing, not here but everywhere, is demands that companies be stripped of their franchise.

We’d might as well issue every train company franchises that last 6 months as apparently almost all of them are worse than the previous one, despite the previous one also being hated, and that everything will be perfect if someone new took over.

There does need to be some kind of deterrent. Not quite the Mussolini method but if there's consequences to not running a proper service then standards improve.

 

[Sankey Wire]

I have submitted 14 requests over a 4 / 5 week period, before deciding to start driving to work. I am yet to receive a single payment as yet. This is a marked increase on time taken.

i have had one come back with a spurious reason for rejection, which i raised as an official complaint and resubmitted. Via social media there are numerous examples of claims being rejected on vague grounds. I cannot help to think Arriva are aiming to obfuscate to deliberately reduce the level of successful pay outs.

I am in a similar position. Today, a claim was cancelled in relation to a journey which I made on Thursday morning, as I had supposedly not been delayed by the requisite number of minutes; however, the “amount of time which we think you were delayed by was left blank.

I had intended to catch the 0820 from Sankey - this skipped our stop and the next train was not until 0928. How do I submit an appeal? The email which I received does not advise on this.

 

[gazzaa2]

If this was London it'd be near the top of every national news broadcast for a month.

 

[northwichcat]

As if they're gonna criticise the DfT when they rely on them to get the next franchise ... if they want one after Northern!!!

Not necessarily. If they do well enough (in DfT's eyes) they'll have the better franchises and won't need to bid on ones like Northern, Wales & Borders, London Overground, Merseyrail etc.

 

[B&I]

If this was London it'd be near the top of every national news broadcast for a month.

But it isn't, so this issue and the people concerned don't exist, as far as the national media is concerned.

 

[John S2]

It must have been obvious to numerous people working in the industry that nowhere near the full quota of trains could be operated from the start of the timetable because of staff shortages. Commonsense suggests a certain proportion of trains should have been cancelled from the start of the timetable even though it had been published. Passengers need to know which trains will run and which ones will not.
Why did this not happen? Were the realists shouted down by the incurable optimists who filter out any views they don't see as 'positive' ?

 

[47802]

However 'enraged' you are and however justifiable that emotion is, your suggestion that Arriva be stripped of the franchise is childish at best when, as you demonstrate in the rest of your comment, you don't understand the issues they have faced. I talked to a member of senior Northern management who told me that they wanted to postpone the timetable change until Network Rail completed the electrification because of the huge problems all those delays would inevitably cause them and passengers but the DfT prevented them from doing so on account of all timetable across the country being linked. Why therefore should Northern be penalised for the problems that they have been forced into? Clearly they have messed up in a big way with some things but they have a contract with the government and will be held to account for their appropriate level of culpability.

Like you I am frustrated by my train journey sometimes but I am trying to understand the problems before ranting about it and there is so much at play here that makes me feel that you are directing your enragement in the wrong places.

No everything is the fault of Arriva but at the end of the day its their name on the franchise, they did have the option not to bid for it, and some the issues outside Arriva control are not exactly new to the rail industry, and if they knew they couldn't meet the timetable as has already been said there should have been some pre-planned cancelations so people at least know where they stand

 

[theironroad]

How much leave do they get? The legal minimum of 28 days including bank holidays cannot be carried over. The employer is by law required to require and ensure that it is taken in the relevant year.

Incorrect. The requirement is for 4 weeks of annual leave plus bank holidays.

We do a true 4 day week and get 27 Al days pa, 4 weeks of rostered annual leave totalling 16 days and 11 ad hoc, but 2 need to be kept aside if rostered to work Christmas day or boxng day.

 

[theironroad]

If this was London it'd be near the top of every national news broadcast for a month.

The BBC news report I saw last night did give pretty equal weight to both gtr and northern as did a BBC news website article.

However,only the MD of gtr was interviewed (Horton) who said they have enough drivers + 50 to run the timetable, just not all are fully route trained yet.

 

[js1000]

Of the 16 services this morning from Mauldeth Road, not a single one was 'on time' (within 1 min) and 10 were officially late (PPM = >5 mins).

0% (ZERO) on time & 37% PPM - that is absolutely atrocious and simply unacceptable.

I would suggest the timetable is simply flawed and ill suited to long distance routes. The Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe with 29 stops and designed to act as the commuter service into Manchester and Liverpool is just plain daft. A lack of qualified train drivers is a poor excuse when passengers can see what is clearly wrong - an over-ambitious timetable that is simply not deliverable.

 

[Furrball]

One conversation seems to indicate to a lack of communication to passengers at Manchester Piccadilly about services commencing from Manchester Oxford Road, resulting in people getting I assume TPE to Preston then back tracking on Northern services.

I also see that some Manchester to Preston + Blackpool North services are now showing as Bus

 

[Bertie the bus]

However 'enraged' you are and however justifiable that emotion is, your suggestion that Arriva be stripped of the franchise is childish at best when, as you demonstrate in the rest of your comment, you don't understand the issues they have faced. I talked to a member of senior Northern management who told me that they wanted to postpone the timetable change until Network Rail completed the electrification because of the huge problems all those delays would inevitably cause them and passengers but the DfT prevented them from doing so on account of all timetable across the country being linked. Why therefore should Northern be penalised for the problems that they have been forced into? Clearly they have messed up in a big way with some things but they have a contract with the government and will be held to account for their appropriate level of culpability.

Like you I am frustrated by my train journey sometimes but I am trying to understand the problems before ranting about it and there is so much at play here that makes me feel that you are directing your enragement in the wrong places.

I think you rather miss the point. In Lancashire the new timetable has been a fiasco but it is the latest in a string of poorly implemented changes by Northern. They didn't handle the Blackpool blockade well, they have handled the Blackpool reopening abysmally and now the new timetable.

The new timetable has only been in operation for 3 days but if you look at this graph:
http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/NT/66/monthly

The PPM for the whole of May for Lancashire and Cumbria Inter Urban services is 59% with 24% of services 30+ mins late or cancelled. That is for the whole month, not just since the timetable change.

You can also see from that graph how poorly they dealt with the Blackpool blockade as PPM nosedives in October, with just a brief respite in January.

 

[js1000]

I think you rather miss the point. In Lancashire the new timetable has been a fiasco but it is the latest in a string of poorly implemented changes by Northern. They didn't handle the Blackpool blockade well, they have handled the Blackpool reopening abysmally and now the new timetable.

The new timetable has only been in operation for 3 days but if you look at this graph:
http://trains.im/ppmhistorical/NT/66/monthly

The PPM for the whole of May for Lancashire and Cumbria Inter Urban services is 59% with 24% of services 30+ mins late or cancelled. That is for the whole month, not just since the timetable change.

You can also see from that graph how poorly they dealt with the Blackpool blockade as PPM nosedives in October, with just a brief respite in January.

Interesting find. Not least because Monday and Tuesday had nearly the same statistics which points to structural flaws in the timetables and services which are just not deliverable.

 

[thejuggler]

The problems continue.

Three consecutive Calder Valley line trains between Lancs and Yorks are cancelled this morning.

No train to Leeds until just before 8. One was due to start in Blackpool and two from Manchester Victoria. Of course you then get three within 15 minutes!

 

[B&I]

As if they're gonna criticise the DfT when they rely on them to get the next franchise ... if they want one after Northern!!!

Well then, they're just going to have to put up with the public flak

 

[B&I]

The BBC news report I saw last night did give pretty equal weight to both gtr and northern as did a BBC news website article.

However,only the MD of gtr was interviewed (Horton) who said they have enough drivers + 50 to run the timetable, just not all are fully route trained yet.

So there are more than 50 drivers training at any one time ? If this is true, why so many ?

 

[B&I]

Of the 16 services this morning from Mauldeth Road, not a single one was 'on time' (within 1 min) and 10 were officially late (PPM = >5 mins).

0% (ZERO) on time & 37% PPM - that is absolutely atrocious and simply unacceptable.

I would suggest the timetable is simply flawed and ill suited to long distance routes. The Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe with 29 stops and designed to act as the commuter service into Manchester and Liverpool is just plain daft. A lack of qualified train drivers is a poor excuse when passengers can see what is clearly wrong - an over-ambitious timetable that is simply not deliverable.

Or, chronic underinvestment in infrastructure and rolling stock coming home to roost ?

 

[theironroad]

So there are more than 50 drivers training at any one time ? If this is true, why so many ?

The 50 number was the number of drivers they have over the minimum needed to operate the timetable at the moment is the way I understood it, just not all were fully route trained. A driver with 30 years experience will need to do route knowledge training over a new route just as a brand new driver will have to start from scratch.

I'm guessing the 50 was a amount to allow for people failing during training and also turnover and projected retirements.

 

[Jimmy Foster]

Or, chronic underinvestment in infrastructure and rolling stock coming home to roost ?

Spot on - chronic underinvestment over 2 decades or more is the key underlying issue here. Finally the government are doing something about it but it won't be enough to reverse all these problems in the short term. I think the North is just going to have to accept it's going to be rubbish on the rails for a while sadly.

 

[Jimmy Foster]

Well then, they're just going to have to put up with the public flak

They are certainly doing that! It's weird how the industry doesn't seem to defend itself, I have never understood that.

Is anyone from Northern actually stepping up to explain what's happened? I haven't seen much from them at all since Monday (though there was some good info at my station and some staff there on Monday morning to explain).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Spot on - chronic underinvestment over 2 decades or more is the key underlying issue here. Finally the government are doing something about it but it won't be enough to reverse all these problems in the short term. I think the North is just going to have to accept it's going to be rubbish on the rails for a while sadly.

But even so, Northern need to design a reduced timetable they can actually reliably operate.

 

[quantinghome]

Spot on - chronic underinvestment over 2 decades or more is the key underlying issue here. Finally the government are doing something about it but it won't be enough to reverse all these problems in the short term. I think the North is just going to have to accept it's going to be rubbish on the rails for a while sadly.

Sorry, but the marked decline in reliability seen over the past few days is not caused by infrastructure or train failures due to lack of investment; it appears to be a breakdown in railway operations - getting the right trains and staff in the right place at the right time. I appreciate this is a complex undertaking but it's what all railways around the world do. Lessons from previous timetable changes don't appear to have been learned. Northern have some culpability, but the ultimate cause is the fragmented structure of the railway, with the TOCs, NR and DfT all involved in aspects of the new timetable, but none of them taking responsibility or capable of doing so given each has a limited role. The DfT needs to step back and revert to a high level strategic role - no more micro-managing. And the railway needs full vertical integration. With rare exceptions, Franchising. Does. Not. Work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How, other than recreating BR or the Sectors which would have massive disadvantages (e.g. Northern's west-side trains would end up operated from Birmingham as part of a wider WMT), would you propose to genuinely vertically integrate in the North West?

I do retain the view that TPE should not be separate from Northern, but is merging beyond that actually sensible?

 

[TrW]

For those who seem to go to lengths to pass off the current situation as unavoidable and inconvenient at worst, these tales of woe may give a better insight to the passenger 'experience'

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...er-news/took-four-hours-home-chaotic-14689108

 

[B&I]

The 50 number was the number of drivers they have over the minimum needed to operate the timetable at the moment is the way I understood it, just not all were fully route trained. A driver with 30 years experience will need to do route knowledge training over a new route just as a brand new driver will have to start from scratch.

I'm guessing the 50 was a amount to allow for people failing during training and also turnover and projected retirements.

There is only 1 route they have to deal with. Or has this farrago of a new timetable produced a whole series of new route combos which drivers aren't trained for eg Allerton drivers now having to learn Styal to Crewe as well as Liverpool to Mancairport ?