Northumberland Line: could capacity be increased?

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Moderator note: Split from

Northumberland Line reopening: progress updates

This just in from New Civil Engineer: Northumberland freight line to be converted for commuter service Aecom and SLC Rail have secured £10M in funding to develop detailed designs to convert the freight-only Northumberland Line into a railway fit for commuters. Northumberland County Council is...

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Do you think they will have to have more than 2 Carriages at certain times of the day when the next station Newsham opens next week

 

[Anvil1984]

Do you think they will have to have more than 2 Carriages at certain times of the day when the next station Newsham opens next week

Nope. Even if there was a monumental increase in passenger numbers there’s just not the units for it. Services in the area which have been overcrowded for years prior to the reopening still haven’t seen strengthening

 

[hacman]

All the while there are 150s going for scrap, and some 156s in cold storage, as there isn't the financial will to keep them running!

 

[androdas]

I thought the reason 158s are used in preference to 156s etc was for the superior acceleration and braking capabilities to fit the very tight timetabling on the Northumberland line. 156s do get used fairly regularly though, especially it seems when the service is strengthened on NUFC matchdays to 4 cars and it doesn't seem to have that much impact vice using 158s.

 

[hacman]

I thought the reason 158s are used in preference to 156s etc was for the superior acceleration and braking capabilities to fit the very tight timetabling on the Northumberland line. 156s do get used fairly regularly though, especially it seems when the service is strengthened on NUFC matchdays to 4 cars and it doesn't seem to have that much impact vice using 158s.

I recall that being the reason, though as you say 156s seem to have been managing fine. That said, anything would be better than nothing, and more of anything in the region would in theory free up 158s if they are an absolute necessity.

The questions will be if the 156 substitutions manage to keep time once all the stations are open, as whilst it was reportedly ok in testing that is very different purely by the virtue of not having to corral a load of passengers into/out of the train at each stop!

Sadly with this route, despite many people's determined opposition to the idea of it being a Metro line, it will hit maximum capacity provision very soon with little room for enhancement which wouldn't have been the case if it were part of Metro.

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

Do you think they will have to have more than 2 Carriages at certain times of the day when the next station Newsham opens next week

They double up at certain times such as on Newcastle home games but nothing regular.

It is more of an issue on a Sunday when the service drops to hourly. It has been packed.

 

[WesternLancer]

They double up at certain times such as on Newcastle home games but nothing regular.

It is more of an issue on a Sunday when the service drops to hourly. It has been packed.

You have to wonder about the bonkers financial model (not just here but elsewhere) where you pay massive sums to maintain or fix or build new infrastructure - but then the most efficient way to make use of that infrastructure is to carry the maximum number of paying passengers but this is limited because there are not enough carriages to carry them.

It would be a bit like building a toll motorway and then rationing the number of cars that could go along it to about 10% of its capacity. Very soviet...

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Sadly with this route, despite many people's determined opposition to the idea of it being a Metro line, it will hit maximum capacity provision very soon with little room for enhancement which wouldn't have been the case if it were part of Metro.

I think if a line is regularly overcrowded, commuter orientated, and described as requiring very tight timetabling necessitating increased braking and acceleration performance - this looks like a job for an electrification system. It doesn't need to be part of T&W to be electrified, but the performance benefits would be the same no matter if its 1.5kV or 25kV.

 

[The exile]

The questions will be if the 156 substitutions manage to keep time once all the stations are open, as whilst it was reportedly ok in testing that is very different purely by the virtue of not having to corral a load of passengers into/out of the train at each stop!

Is their acceleration appreciably worse than 158s? Door speed and width (therefore loading times) are surely better than a 158.

 

[Bald Rick]

but the performance benefits would be the same no matter if its 1.5kV or 25kV.

or batteries….

 

[brad465]

Nope. Even if there was a monumental increase in passenger numbers there’s just not the units for it. Services in the area which have been overcrowded for years prior to the reopening still haven’t seen strengthening

Presumably Northern's massive fleet tender, if fully approved, would sort this out, albeit not for years while they're built.

 

[Snex]

I thought the reason 158s are used in preference to 156s etc was for the superior acceleration and braking capabilities to fit the very tight timetabling on the Northumberland line. 156s do get used fairly regularly though, especially it seems when the service is strengthened on NUFC matchdays to 4 cars and it doesn't seem to have that much impact vice using 158s.

To be fair 4 of the stations are currently closed. If they can't keep to time right now then there's something very wrong.

Either way surely you'd just put whatever turns up onto something else and double up Class 158's instead.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

or batteries….

I don't see any major clearance issues, but I get your point that battery trains may end up in the newcastle area because of the complexity of the line towards Sunderland.
That being said, battery trains seem somewhat unproven on commuter lines with long(er) trains. The Headbolt lane trial is quite short afterall and has faced some reliability problems.

 

[Bald Rick]

That being said, battery trains seem somewhat unproven on commuter lines with long(er) trains.

They are running just fine in Germany etc. Same laws of physics over there.

 

[hacman]

I think if a line is regularly overcrowded, commuter orientated, and described as requiring very tight timetabling necessitating increased braking and acceleration performance - this looks like a job for an electrification system. It doesn't need to be part of T&W to be electrified, but the performance benefits would be the same no matter if its 1.5kV or 25kV.

Exactly - that said, due to the lack of electrification on routes elsewhere in the region, it does make you wonder what that would look like if 25kV was the chosen option. Electrification for the line is in my mind a no-brainer, and will be even more so when the line is fully open, and if extension to Newbiggin happens.

That said, the prime issue is that Benton Junction and the ECML between there and Newcastle is where the capacity issues occur. This could be improved if Benton junction was re-worked - either to allow faster transit speeds (not sure how much impact that would have, but it all helps) or if grade separation was possible (far too expensive).

The ECML issue is always going to be the defining aspect here, and long-distance services will continue to impact the timetable that can be offered as they do now.

The current Sunday timetable is already inadequate and will become increasingly so - though there are other factors affecting provision there.

Is their acceleration appreciably worse than 158s? Door speed and width (therefore loading times) are surely better than a 158.

To be honest, I think it's about the same in terms of boarding - the 156 doors are in the same locations and are still only wide enough for one person at a time, which is ultimately the bottleneck. They also don't open that much faster than a 158, its only a few seconds.

I do suspect part of the reason to target the line with 158s will have been a combination of hihger top speed for the section between Benton and Newcastle, and for the improved passenger accomodation they offer over a 156; when trying to get people out of their cars or off busses, air conditioning and better noise isolation from the engines are definate selling points. The 156s are excellent trains, but the 158s do feel more "premium" as a result of their original intended use.

or batteries….

This could be a very good way to get things moving along without too much investment. The line is ideally suited, with a nice terminal station at the end for a re-charging point.

As I've previously mentioned, a hybrid approach where Metro services were extended onto the route fitting between the current Northern services would give a very good balance. It works well for the Sunderland line and is a model we should be exploring more in the region.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Exactly - that said, due to the lack of electrification on routes elsewhere in the region, it does make you wonder what that would look like if 25kV was the chosen option.

For the particular case of the Northumberland line (that it adjoins onto the 25kV network at both sides), I don't think it's a major issue. Newcastle–Carlisle is a lot more uncertain in my opinion as the geography is probably a bit problematic. And then there is the Sunderland line which is in a strange situation for further electrification.

 

[zwk500]

For the particular case of the Northumberland line (that it adjoins onto the 25kV network at both sides), I don't think it's a major issue. Newcastle–Carlisle is a lot more uncertain in my opinion as the geography is probably a bit problematic. And then there is the Sunderland line which is in a strange situation for further electrification.

To me, Electric to at least MetroCentre but possibly Hexham would be the target, with batteries then beyond and the unit can Top Up in the bay at Carlisle. OLE as far as Ashington would be nice, but might not need to be all the way with a BEMU. Although going all the way to Morpeth is only going to make sense if the line is in passenger service
AIUI the Sunderland line has some level of provision for future conversion to 25KV, although it's not 25KV-ready I don't think. I have no idea if Metro units would need more work to be 25KV compatible, I imagine they'd need something at least.

That being said, battery trains seem somewhat unproven on commuter lines with long(er) trains. The Headbolt lane trial is quite short afterall and has faced some reliability problems.

Irish Rail seem happy enough to have ordered them for the expanded DART service. And they won't be charging directly from the OLE either. Whether their OLE being 1.5kv DC made any difference to that choice I don't know, it could have just been total power load concerns if all the DART BEMUs were charging in the section.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

To me, Electric to at least MetroCentre but possibly Hexham would be the target, with batteries then beyond and the unit can Top Up in the bay at Carlisle.

I don't know that line very well at all but it looks long and probably has some noteworthy gradients. So you may want to have a stretch of OLE in the middle of the route for on-the-move charging.

OLE as far as Ashington would be nice, but might not need to be all the way with a BEMU. Although going all the way to Morpeth is only going to make sense if the line is in passenger service

The whole route isn't that long and doesn't seem to have any major clearance issues so the amount of money you'd actually save on only wiring some parts but not others is sort of negligible and you do lose out on the benefit of being an ECML diversionary route (not all those trains are bimodes of course) - and also the ability for the ECML to feed power to itself around an OLE fault on the main route. Also there are about 12 daily freight paths which may be ran off bi-mode locos at some point, so they'd benefit as well. (I'm not saying it's worth putting wires up beyond Ashington as that bridge looks like a no-go). I do think that a Morpeth service should exist.

AIUI the Sunderland line has some level of provision for future conversion to 25KV, although it's not 25KV-ready I don't think.

I wonder what that level of provision is? Correct clearances for all modified structures seems likely? With SFC technology you may be able to re-use the grid connections used for the DC substations. Seems unlikely that they'd do anything else to help a conversion back in 2002.

I have no idea if Metro units would need more work to be 25KV compatible, I imagine they'd need something at least.

Yeah i think this is where it all goes wrong. They are not compatible and I don't actually think passive provision was provided, I mean - it's a bit ambiguous whether it was, but you do need a different kind of pantograph for 25kV AC either way. Also, it's kind of a grey area to me whether it's worse having T&W provide bi-modes, or having it on the National Rail side of things.

T&W dual voltage trains is good because every metro train would be bimode, since all of them will go to Sunderland regularly, whereas you'd have to make a decisions somewhere on how many AC/DC units you want across the whole of the Northeast local network. Although, if you go down the route of interspersing metro-trains on the Northumberland lines (as has been mentioned) it could make more sense.

The reason why I entertain the idea of Northern (um urr, "BR"??) taking on the burden of dual voltage is because it may actually wind up easier since they're in the process of buying new trains whereas that ship has well and truly sailed for T&W. But this is also because AC electrification requires significantly more on-train equipment than any DC system, so you'd be asking T&W to make their trains heavier and maintain a transformer/rectifier/2cnd pantograph just to operate a minority of their tracks, whereas that equipment is the standard for national rail trains. The 2cnd pantograph thing is a problem all round tho.

In the end though, I'm actually more open for doing a battery/discontinuous solution for the Sunderland line because in my eyes, it's a tricky situation with any conversion work introducing expensive complexities. I think the Northumberland Line wiring would be a lot simpler and streamlined then that

Irish Rail seem happy enough to have ordered them for the expanded DART service. And they won't be charging directly from the OLE either. Whether their OLE being 1.5kv DC made any difference to that choice I don't know, it could have just been total power load concerns if all the DART BEMUs were charging in the section.

Well I may as well point out that Irish Rail are also intending to electrify those stretches that will be initially run by batteries. Apparently they are doing battery stuff because grid connections are proving slow to come by, as well as on the planning permission front. Also Ireland is probably one of the few places in Europe that might have a more non-existent electrification supply chain/skills base than we do.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't know that line very well at all but it looks long and probably has some noteworthy gradients. So you may want to have a stretch of OLE in the middle of the route for on-the-move charging.

I‘m going to be *that* person that explains this (again), but batteries don’t care about gradients, in fact gradients are good news for battery trains, as it enables better and more efficient use of regeneration.

 

[zwk500]

I don't know that line very well at all but it looks long and probably has some noteworthy gradients. So you may want to have a stretch of OLE in the middle of the route for on-the-move charging.

Isolated OLE doesn't make sense, hence the suggestion to try and reach Hexham.

I wonder what that level of provision is? Correct clearances for all modified structures seems likely? With SFC technology you may be able to re-use the grid connections used for the DC substations. Seems unlikely that they'd do anything else to help a conversion back in 2002.

Genuinely no idea, sorry!

In the end though, I'm actually more open for doing a battery/discontinuous solution for the Sunderland line because in my eyes, it's a tricky situation with any conversion work introducing expensive complexities. I think the Northumberland Line wiring would be a lot simpler and streamlined then that

Northern running battery under the 1.5kV is what I think will end up happening personally as well.

Well I may as well point out that Irish Rail are also intending to electrify those stretches that will be initially run by batteries. Apparently they are doing battery stuff because grid connections are proving slow to come by, as well as on the planning permission front. Also Ireland is probably one of the few places in Europe that might have a more non-existent electrification supply chain/skills base than we do.

They are indeed intending to electrify those stretches, and have 25KV AC electrification planned for their Intercity stretches. But the point still stands that as a service option they believe battery technology is mature enough to provide the day-in-day-out Dublin Commuter service until they can electrify the expanded network. I also though some parts of the final DART+ network would remain unelectrified for quite a long time, but could be wrong.

 

[Snex]

To be honest, I think it's about the same in terms of boarding - the 156 doors are in the same locations and are still only wide enough for one person at a time, which is ultimately the bottleneck. They also don't open that much faster than a 158, its only a few seconds.

I do suspect part of the reason to target the line with 158s will have been a combination of hihger top speed for the section between Benton and Newcastle, and for the improved passenger accomodation they offer over a 156; when trying to get people out of their cars or off busses, air conditioning and better noise isolation from the engines are definate selling points. The 156s are excellent trains, but the 158s do feel more "premium" as a result of their original intended use.

To be fair the Class 156's are pretty awful nowadays really. Outdated, noisy and some of them cramped. There's just worse around aka. Class 150's which make them more bearable.

On the battery stuff surely the North East will be using whatever the 'alternative' fuel is in the future. Unless there's plans to electrific the lines upto Mallaig, Kyle of Lochalsh, Whitby, and what not, there's going to have to be some future alternative around, unless batteries are seriously improved big time, but then the issues discussed aren't an issue anymore anyway.

Until then I'd imagine they'll just drag out any Diesel trains left until their death. The West Yorkshire and North West network are much more ideal for battery trains.

 

[Killingworth]

When there's talk of Metro and mainline electrification incompatibility I wonder why so much was spent on the Sheffield tram-train project.

 

[edwin_m]

When there's talk of Metro and mainline electrification incompatibility I wonder why so much was spent on the Sheffield tram-train project.

Partly because they did make it 25kV compatible but apparently they couldn't just feed 25kV overhead with 750V instead, a lot more expensive approvals were needed. People involved with the project have said it would have been better just to install tramway overhead and rip it out again if 25kV was ever needed - I have a feeling though that this might have led to just as much grief. To be fair, when the tram-train project started there was a very real prospect of 25kV appearing in the Sheffield area, and the vehicles are capable of using it.

 

[mrgreen]

Northern running battery under the 1.5kV is what I think will end up happening personally as well.

I'd agree. The Newcastle & Carlisle is likely to have a lot of problems with clearances as it's 1830s engineering, and only carries 3tph so not economic to wire. Electrifying to Ashington would be a lot of money for just 2tph (and increasing frequency is difficult in view of the use of the ECML). And Newcastle-Sunderland is 1500V DC with no likelihood of changing to 25kV as there's new 1500V-only rollingstock arriving.
So the Newcastle area has 3 services that are suited to battery, with recharging in Central station and the short run along the ECML. I would wire as far as Metro Centre, though, to give longer for recharging, and to avoid trains running out of juice on the ascent from the banks of the Tyne to Central Station (which is at the level of the top of the High Level Bridge, so quite a climb). Sunderland services arriving over the High Level Bridge are on the correct side of the layout to continue to Metro Centre / Hexham without crossing the ECML.

 

[brad465]

They are running just fine in Germany etc. Same laws of physics over there.

And yet it's taking forever to get them over here widespread. Come on DfT, Government and TOCs, bloody get on with ordering them!

 

[Snex]

I'd agree. The Newcastle & Carlisle is likely to have a lot of problems with clearances as it's 1830s engineering, and only carries 3tph so not economic to wire. Electrifying to Ashington would be a lot of money for just 2tph (and increasing frequency is difficult in view of the use of the ECML). And Newcastle-Sunderland is 1500V DC with no likelihood of changing to 25kV as there's new 1500V-only rollingstock arriving.
So the Newcastle area has 3 services that are suited to battery, with recharging in Central station and the short run along the ECML. I would wire as far as Metro Centre, though, to give longer for recharging, and to avoid trains running out of juice on the ascent from the banks of the Tyne to Central Station (which is at the level of the top of the High Level Bridge, so quite a climb). Sunderland services arriving over the High Level Bridge are on the correct side of the layout to continue to Metro Centre / Hexham without crossing the ECML.

imo the Tyne Valley Line and Durham Coast will be Hydogen. I know the technology doesn't exist currently but by the time any new vehicles are due up here ie. 2045-50 or so the tech will be around, or something similar.

Having trains sitting around in Central where there's nowhere to have trains sitting around is never going to work and a massive waste of resources aswell.

The Class 195's will end up here first imo, with those routes using the BEMU trains instead which are more suited.

 

[Starmill]

Partly because they did make it 25kV compatible but apparently they couldn't just feed 25kV overhead with 750V instead, a lot more expensive approvals were needed. People involved with the project have said it would have been better just to install tramway overhead and rip it out again if 25kV was ever needed - I have a feeling though that this might have led to just as much grief. To be fair, when the tram-train project started there was a very real prospect of 25kV appearing in the Sheffield area, and the vehicles are capable of using it.

This one was definitely a bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

I‘m going to be *that* person that explains this (again), but batteries don’t care about gradients, in fact gradients are good news for battery trains, as it enables better and more efficient use of regeneration.

I think the person you're responding to here was really just getting at the capacity of the batteries necessary. Of course I'm pretty confident that batteries of adequate capacity that will fit in the available space have been available for some years now.

 

[zwk500]

imo the Tyne Valley Line and Durham Coast will be Hydogen. I know the technology doesn't exist currently but by the time any new vehicles are due up here ie. 2045-50 or so the tech will be around, or something similar.

IMO Hydrogen is a red herring. The railway would need big quantities and it needs sensitive handling when transferring between delivery, storage and unit tanks. Battery technology is rapidly advancing and rail is well suited to large battery capacity units. I also believe that standard EMUs will have an emergency traction battery as standard for incident recovery/mitigation purposes, so the idea of an all-BEMU fleet that just has different battery capacities depending on intended services will be very attractive to operators.

Having trains sitting around in Central where there's nowhere to have trains sitting around is never going to work and a massive waste of resources aswell.

Combining the different branches into through services would resolve that issue, which would also help with BEMU charging times.

 

[androdas]

They double up at certain times such as on Newcastle home games but nothing regular.

It is more of an issue on a Sunday when the service drops to hourly. It has been packed.

Northern must be watching this thread as this mornings train is a 4 car 158 . Might be to do with the cup final and the thought people will be heading to town to watch it.

 

[Snex]

Northern must be watching this thread as this mornings train is a 4 car 158 . Might be to do with the cup final and the thought people will be heading to town to watch it.

Probably helps that they're very likely going to be doubled up tomorrow aswell with the Newsham opening, so just sorted them out early.

I'd imagine there'd be huge capacity issues otherwise.