Not allowed out of gateline on advance ticket

[gray1404]

So would I complain to South West Trains as they manage Clapham Junction, GTR/Southern as I between two of their services at their station or Transpennine Express as that is the retailer who I purchased the tickets from?

 

[Stigy]

So would I complain to South West Trains as they manage Clapham Junction, GTR/Southern as I between two of their services at their station or Transpennine Express as that is the retailer who I purchased the tickets from?

Certainly not SWT as they no longer exist, but that’s just me being pedantic. I’d personally complain to SWR (although technically NWR manage CJ now, SWR still run the place with their staff and all but one or two managers these days). It’s SWR staff who are responsible for the ticket gates, although on this occasion it was agency staff you spoke to (STM Security).

 

[dcbwhaley]

Smoking is not permitted anywhere on stations, therefore smoking cannot possibly involve use of a station facility. By definition you have to leave railway property in order to smoke. So such ticket holders are extremely lucky to be given dispensation to break the conditions of their ticket for a reason no more or less spurious than, for example, popping to a nearby shop. It would seem unfair and inconsistent to me.

It is, of course, quite possible for the smokers feet to be on railway property whilst his cigarette is outside. Not sure what the rules say about that

 

[Stigy]

Smoking is not permitted anywhere on stations, therefore smoking cannot possibly involve use of a station facility. By definition you have to leave railway property in order to smoke. So such ticket holders are extremely lucky to be given dispensation to break the conditions of their ticket for a reason no more or less spurious than, for example, popping to a nearby shop. It would seem unfair and inconsistent to me.

Smoking is not permitted anywhere on the station, however that doesn’t extend to anywhere on railway property. For example, one could exit a station building and have a cigarette quite legally in the car park or on the taxi rank.

 

[gray1404]

Correct, its South Western Railway now (SWR) no longer SWT. I am doubtful they would pay out any compensation though, unless I did a really carefully worded letter.

 

[island]

Even so, it's ridiculous in the extreme. I'd be sorely tempted to barge the barrier and purchase a single to the next stop to get back in.

That would be a byelaw 9 offence.

To the more general query, it’s up to the OP how much of a song and dance he wishes to make, but expecting anything more than an email of apology is likely to result in disappointment.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would be a byelaw 9 offence.

Technically, but I can't see it being pursued, particularly where it was done because the member of barrier staff was acting improperly.

But in all seriousness, put the ticket in the gate, almost anything opens the CLJ gates for exit.

 

[gray1404]

Anything with todays date on?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anything with todays date on?

I'd imagine it probably rejects if you put an out of date ticket in. I'll have to try something ridiculous next time I'm there to see what it does (for a real laugh, a single from Forsinard to Altnabreac would do). It might just be it's set to accept anything to/from stations directly served from there, if indeed you can do that.

 

[Dave91131]

Having read this thread with interest, could any of you guys or girls 'in the know' shed any light on the following:

If exiting a station through an automatic ticket barrier or through a gate manually operated by a member of staff to visit a shop or have a smoke or for any other reason is deemed to be an illegal break of journey if in possession of certain ticket types, how is this situation controlled and dealt with when moving between platforms at the interchange station involves exiting and re-entering through ticket barriers or gates?

One example that springs to mind is Finsbury Park, where some if not all of the platforms have gates and barriers at the top of the subway stairs. I have had to explain my movements countless times to staff members when trying to enter the platform to continue my journey, due to my perfectly valid ticket not opening the gates due to me having just exited another platform through another set of gates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If exiting a station through an automatic ticket barrier or through a gate manually operated by a member of staff to visit a shop or have a smoke or for any other reason is deemed to be an illegal break of journey if in possession of certain ticket types, how is this situation controlled and dealt with when moving between platforms at the interchange station involves exiting and re-entering through ticket barriers or gates?

Regardless of the debate surrounding what constitutes a break of journey, one thing that certainly does not is passing through a barrier or even leaving a station if it is necessary to join a connecting train.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Having read this thread with interest, could any of you guys or girls 'in the know' shed any light on the following:

If exiting a station through an automatic ticket barrier or through a gate manually operated by a member of staff to visit a shop or have a smoke or for any other reason is deemed to be an illegal break of journey if in possession of certain ticket types, how is this situation controlled and dealt with when moving between platforms at the interchange station involves exiting and re-entering through ticket barriers or gates?

One example that springs to mind is Finsbury Park, where some if not all of the platforms have gates and barriers at the top of the subway stairs. I have had to explain my movements countless times to staff members when trying to enter the platform to continue my journey, due to my perfectly valid ticket not opening the gates due to me having just exited another platform through another set of gates.

Something like that - or indeed, changing from the 1-5 A end platforms to the 6-12 A end platforms at Birmingham New Street - would certainly not constitute a break of journey. Nevertheless, on the railways, being legally (and theoretically) in the right does not always mean practical success, sadly...

Also, a break of journey would never be illegal (well, not unless you are doing it to avoid paying the correct fare!); at worst, it would be a breach of contract. But that is something that the TOCs engage in so often, and with such impunity, that I have to say I have no sympathy whatsover with the TOCs suffering from such potential breaches of contract . In all cases, the passenger should be allowed to exit the station upon paying the excess fare to the cheapest fare that permits break of journey, or giving their name and address.

 

[Dave91131]

Regardless of the debate surrounding what constitutes a break of journey, one thing that certainly does not is passing through a barrier or even leaving a station if it is necessary to join a connecting train.

Many thanks for the clarification.

It seems that, as with so many other things, a common sense approach is required.

If the connecting train that the OP was booked on was suddenly announced as cancelled, would he/she then have been 'detained' in the station at CLJ until the next available service? And still refused exit from the station? Even if the next available service was an hour later, the stance taken by the staff member that the OP encountered at CLJ combined with the fact that leaving then re-entering the station was not essential to catch the later service suggests that exit would still have been refused.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Break of journey requirements are intended;
1. To stop people re-using Off-Peak tickets until they are marked or collected
2. To stop people using cheaper tickets for more expensive journeys

There is no sense in stopping a passenger popping to the shops unless you genuinely suspect they are lying and intend to do or have done (1) or (2). However some staff do seem to like making things difficult for a pure power trip, and private security guards are the most likely of any profession to do this.

 

[gray1404]

I agree with this last statement, I have had more problems from security guards manning tickets barriers then actual railway staff manning barriers. I personally think that if a member of railway staff cannot man a barrier then it should be left open. If a security guard must really man it then they should just be making sure the customer has something of a ticket, but the actual validity should never be determined by them. They also should never have the view that a ticket must be invalid just because it will not operate the barriers. I am afraid this is going on too much these days.

 

[Dave91131]

I agree with this last statement, I have had more problems from security guards manning tickets barriers then actual railway staff manning barriers. I personally think that if a member of railway staff cannot man a barrier then it should be left open. If a security guard must really man it then they should just be making sure the customer has something of a ticket, but the actual validity should never be determined by them. They also should never have the view that a ticket must be invalid just because it will not operate the barriers. I am afraid this is going on too much these days.

I agree. If the staff manning barriers and gates do not have the relevant knowledge to determine whether or not a ticket is valid, passengers should not be subjected to unwarranted questioning and delays.

Another personal experience of mine occurred at Liverpool Street not so long ago. For reasons not known to myself my zone 1-6 Travelcard from Peterborough failed to open the barriers at platforms 11-18. I moved to the wide-aisle manual gate and showed said Travelcard to the staff member manning it, to be told 'not valid here, you need Kings Cross'.

Say no more!

 

[NoOnesFool]

It isn't, but it is totally ridiculous not to let someone pop to the shops between booked trains, and it is precisely the kind of thing that gets the railway a bad reputation when they attempt something quite so stupid.

That's the compromise of using a heavily discounted ticket instead of one at a higher price, with greater flexibility.

I wonder if the OP mentioned going to LIDL to the Revenue Protection Officer.

 

[NoOnesFool]

The Shop Stop area at Clapham Junction is all OFF railway property. The railway ends just adjacent to the Ticket Office or there abouts (maybe even further back). To be honest though, I very much doubt the member of agency staff had any knowledge whatsoever about ticketing restrictions and was probably not best placed to advise.

Just because she works for a contractor, doesn't mean that she isn't competent at her job. Revenue Protection Officers have to undergo extensive training and companies like STM have a strong Revenue Protection background. Although we can never know the full story with one person 's account, it seems as though she was right to refuse the OP permission to leave the premises.

 

[gray1404]

It defiantly wasn't a revenue protection officer I spoke to and there was very little evidence of comprehensive training on ticketing matters. I did not mention going to Lidl and, if you look at my opening post, you will see that I asked if I could use station facilities (which I would have been quite happy to use if I had to). However, I was told that because of the type of ticket I held I could not exit the batter - incorrect - as using station facilities should never be denied.

I also dispute your claim about STM having a strong revenue protection background. Look at how Northern customers have been mistreated on many occasions. I wondered if you might have some personal connection to STM or someone similar.

 

[Wolfie]

It defiantly wasn't a revenue protection officer I spoke to and there was very little evidence of comprehensive training on ticketing matters. I did not mention going to Lidl and, if you look at my opening post, you will see that I asked if I could use station facilities (which I would have been quite happy to use if I had to). However, I was told that because of the type of ticket I held I could not exit the batter - incorrect - as using station facilities should never be denied.

I also dispute your claim about STM having a strong revenue protection background. Look at how Northern customers have been mistreated on many occasions. I wondered if you might have some personal connection to STM or someone similar.

If what you say is accurate l agree.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Just because she works for a contractor, doesn't mean that she isn't competent at her job. Revenue Protection Officers have to undergo extensive training and companies like STM have a strong Revenue Protection background. Although we can never know the full story with one person 's account, it seems as though she was right to refuse the OP permission to leave the premises.

She should have asked, if anything, for the OP to pay the excess to the cheapest fare permitting BoJ. Denying the passenger exit entirely is false imprisonment and no amount of the railway's "rules" can change that.

 

[gray1404]

But there would not have been any basis to even attempt to charge an excess to the cheapest fare permitting BoJ as my request was to exit the barrier to use station facilities and until such time that I say that I wish to do or actually do anything to the country they should take my word for it. I do see your point though.

I think any customer seriously wanted to exit the station and not return on their booked train would have made a bit of a fuss until such time they were let out or indeed gone to the gateline on the other side.

 

[NoOnesFool]

But there would not have been any basis to even attempt to charge an excess to the cheapest fare permitting BoJ as my request was to exit the barrier to use station facilities and until such time that I say that I wish to do or actually do anything to the country they should take my word for it. I do see your point though.

I think any customer seriously wanted to exit the station and not return on their booked train would have made a bit of a fuss until such time they were let out or indeed gone to the gateline on the other side.

From what I gather, Clapham Junction is quite a popular destination and this is what could have aroused the Officer's suspicions. Sometimes, it can actually be cheaper to travel one stop further along the line than to a popular destination. Because of this, break of journey is not allowed. Perhaps if you'd been at a less popular destination, i.e. Hook, then the Officer may have used her discretion. I can imagine a lot of people "trying it on" to get a cheaper ticket to key London destinations.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

From what I gather, Clapham Junction is quite a popular destination and this is what could have aroused the Officer's suspicions. Sometimes, it can actually be cheaper to travel one stop further along the line than to a popular destination. Because of this, break of journey is not allowed. Perhaps if you'd been at a less popular destination, i.e. Hook, then the Officer may have used her discretion. I can imagine a lot of people "trying it on" to get a cheaper ticket to key London destinations.

Even if they are "trying it on", they must be let out upon payment of the excess. You cannot stop the passenger from leaving entirely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's the compromise of using a heavily discounted ticket instead of one at a higher price, with greater flexibility.

It really isn't. There is no intention on the railway's part to prevent someone incidentally popping out of the station between trains to the shop between booked trains, for a cigarette or something. It's utterly de-minimis. It is totally preposterous to suggest that someone should purchase an Anytime Single just to be able to pop to Lidl for a loaf and a bottle of milk on the way home.

In any meaningful sense (and we really could do with some legal precedent on this now RDG can't be bothered to define it any more) Break of Journey is starting/ending short or deliberately spending more time at a given location (outside of the railway) than is necessary during the journey. And that, up to the appointment of poorly-trained, cheap and nasty security guards on barrier lines, is exactly how any member of railway staff I've ever encountered has dealt with it. "Just popping to the shops while I'm waiting for my train?" - "That's fine". Spend the day shopping around Clapham Junction and continue in the evening? No, that's clearly a break.

 

[mmh]

Smoking is not permitted anywhere on the station, however that doesn’t extend to anywhere on railway property. For example, one could exit a station building and have a cigarette quite legally in the car park or on the taxi rank.

That's not technically true. Smoking is banned on all publicly accessible parts of railway property by a railway byelaw - it was deliberately done that way as otherwise the smoking ban legislation wouldn't have covered open spaces (e.g. platforms)

In practice what happens is a vague approximation of common sense, where smoking in front of a doorway is a faux-pas, but if the smoker keeps themself out of the way of people nobody is likely to ever say anything. You can see this every day at most terminal stations in London where there will be signs saying the whole forecourt area is non-smoking. It is never, ever, enforced, either by station staff or police.

(Of course there are still anti-social people who will smoke in other people's paths - I smoke myself but try to be polite, but no doubt fail at times)

 

[island]

That's not technically true. Smoking is banned on all publicly accessible parts of railway property by a railway byelaw - it was deliberately done that way as otherwise the smoking ban legislation wouldn't have covered open spaces (e.g. platforms)

That’s incorrect. The byelaw makes smoking illegal only where signage says so. The majority of stations have such signs, and the smoke-free legislation makes it illegal indoors anyway, but if the signs are missing then smoking outdoors on the railway is legal.

 

[sprunt]

From what I gather, Clapham Junction is quite a popular destination and this is what could have aroused the Officer's suspicions. Sometimes, it can actually be cheaper to travel one stop further along the line than to a popular destination. Because of this, break of journey is not allowed. Perhaps if you'd been at a less popular destination, i.e. Hook, then the Officer may have used her discretion. I can imagine a lot of people "trying it on" to get a cheaper ticket to key London destinations.

Your imagination should not be a basis on which passengers are mistreated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CLJ isn't *that* popular a destination for its size, it is primarily an interchange.

 

[kristiang85]

If it is an advance ticket, surely the timings of the train are on it, so a passenger can do what they like in the gap between their trains? As long as they get their correct connection (which will be checked at barriers/on board), I don't see a problem.

The railways do not help themselves.