• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Notice of intention to prosecute

Status
Not open for further replies.

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,248
Location
No longer here
I can only assume you do not understand the implications of Strict Proof under the criminal law of England and Wales.

Failure to show a ticket or other authority to travel is a strict liability matter. All that needs to be proven is that no ticket was shown. No intent must be proven.

Saying "I don't have a ticket but the man on the platform said it was alright" still leaves the burden of proof on the passenger to supply evidence of that authority to travel.

What you and others seem to be suggesting is that in all cases, a strict liability matter such as this can be successfully defended by simply stating that an authorised person had allowed travel, and that you don't even need to provide proof of that authority, and it is up to the TOC to prove that authority wasn't given. That's not correct. The burden of proof is on the passenger to supply either a ticket or evidence of a valid authority to travel in lieu of that ticket.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,753
Location
Essex
I'm going to bounce that one to someone such as DaveNewcastle, because any answer I'll give has a 50% chance of being wrong.

Defences are not *usually* like that. For instance, if I try to claim insanity it's up to me to prove that I am insane, than for the Prosecution to try and claim I'm not.
 

michael769

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2005
Messages
2,006
Failure to show a ticket or other authority to travel is a strict liability matter. All that needs to be proven is that no ticket was shown. No intent must be proven.

Strict proof has nothing to with intent!
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,753
Location
Essex
Which is why Strict Proof (which has nothing to do with intent or otherwise) can be used in strict liability defenses. .

I don't think strict proof can be used in criminal cases, as the standard of proof is already beyond reasonable doubt.

As I understand it strict proof can be claimed in civil cases to make the standard of proof stronger.

The only references I've seen to it is it being used in civil cases to make the standard of proof "more criminal".
 

benk1342

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2011
Messages
367
Location
Welwyn Garden City
Which is why Strict Proof (which has nothing to do with intent or otherwise) can be used in strict liability defenses. .

I think people may be conflating strict proof and strict liability.

Strict liability means that intent is not an element of the offence; i.e., the prosecution need not prove intent.

Strict proof means that the defendant is requiring the claimant to prove every element of his or her claim. In a criminal context, this would mean that the defendant is not conceding any element of the offence; i.e., the prosecution would have to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) every fact necessary to find the defendant guilty. (In a strict-liability offence, this would not include proving intent as that is not an element of the offence.)
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,753
Location
Essex
the prosecution would have to prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) every fact necessary to find the defendant guilty.

That has to be done in a criminal prosecution anyway, regardless of whether "strict proof" is claimed.
 

benk1342

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2011
Messages
367
Location
Welwyn Garden City
Failure to show a ticket or other authority to travel is a strict liability matter. All that needs to be proven is that no ticket was shown. No intent must be proven.

If an authorised person gave you permission to travel on the service with the ticket you were holding, then that ticket was a valid ticket (or at least, as you put it, "valid authority to travel in lieu of a ticket"). This has nothing to do with intent.

Saying "I don't have a ticket but the man on the platform said it was alright" still leaves the burden of proof on the passenger to supply evidence of that authority to travel.

Again, I am not an expert on English criminal law. But I find it hard to believe that in a criminal case the burden of proof is ever on the defendant (with the possible exception of insanity defences and a few other things for which a specific statutory framework has been set up). My understanding is that if a defendant raises a defence such as "my ticket was valid because I was given permission to use it by an authorised person", and provides prima facie evidence in the form of his/her own statement under oath, then the burden shifts to the prosecution to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that this didn't happen. In practical terms, the way they would do this would be by attacking the defendant's credibility and persuading the magistrates not to believe him/her. So from a practical standpoint, the defendant still faces an uphill battle if using a defence along these lines (which is unfortunate if the defendant is telling the truth). But legally, I believe the burden of proof still rests with the prosecution.

What you and others seem to be suggesting is that in all cases, a strict liability matter such as this can be successfully defended by simply stating that an authorised person had allowed travel, and that you don't even need to provide proof of that authority, and it is up to the TOC to prove that authority wasn't given. That's not correct. The burden of proof is on the passenger to supply either a ticket or evidence of a valid authority to travel in lieu of that ticket.
(Emphasis mine.)

The defendant's statement under oath is sufficient proof if the magistrates find it credible.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That has to be done in a criminal prosecution anyway, regardless of whether "strict proof" is claimed.

Well, sometimes a defendant will admit (to save trial time and expense, etc) basic details like identity or location (which might be relevant to jurisdiction). Putting the prosecution to strict proof on every element could be taken to mean that you are not admitting anything, even these basic details.
 
Last edited:

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,753
Location
Essex
Well, sometimes a defendant will admit (to save trial time and expense, etc) basic details like identity or location (which might be relevant to jurisdiction). Putting the prosecution to strict proof on every element could be taken to mean that you are not admitting anything, even these basic details.

True, but even so the prosecution would have a pretty shoddy case if they couldn't even prove where the defendant was without the defendant admitting it - I don't think the CPS/Prosecutions department would ever let it get that far.

As I said, the only reference I've seen to strict proof is in civil cases where it appears to me the claimant has to prove everything beyond all reasonable doubt rather than on a balance of probabilities.
 

benk1342

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2011
Messages
367
Location
Welwyn Garden City
As I said, the only reference I've seen to strict proof is in civil cases where it appears to me the claimant has to prove everything beyond all reasonable doubt rather than on a balance of probabilities.

That's different from my understanding of the term, but you may be right. I agree, though, that it is typically used in the civil context.
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
While I don't know the technicalities of the law or anything, one thing does interest me.
The bylaws and the rules of carriage say that you are fine if an authorised person allows you to travel. However, we all know that saying "the man on the platform said I would be fine" is a flimsy defence at best. So what are you supposed to do when a member of staff authorised you to travel? Record them? Get them to sign the ticket (which could be anyone doing it)? etc etc.
 

benk1342

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2011
Messages
367
Location
Welwyn Garden City
While I don't know the technicalities of the law or anything, one thing does interest me.
The bylaws and the rules of carriage say that you are fine if an authorised person allows you to travel. However, we all know that saying "the man on the platform said I would be fine" is a flimsy defence at best. So what are you supposed to do when a member of staff authorised you to travel? Record them? Get them to sign the ticket (which could be anyone doing it)? etc etc.

I've heard it said before that you should get them to endorse the ticket, presumably with some kind of stamp or their ID number or something. I've never tried this myself and have no idea how practical it is.
 

Kentish Paul

Member
Joined
25 Apr 2012
Messages
454
Location
Ashford Kent
I remember back in 1990 or 91 travelling from Ashford (Kent) to Gatwick for a family holiday abroad. Tickets were via Tonbridge and Redhill. The Tonbridge line was closed due to a fatality. With a flight to catch we asked what was best to do. A very helpfull chap directed us to a Victoria train (via Maidstone East) whilst writing on a page from his notebook an authority to travel via Victoria using our tickets, complete with name, signature and ID number. All this in the 3 minutes before the Victoria train left!

No problems at Victoria, caught the next train to Gatwick and the flight was made on time.

Maybe there was more common sense back then.
 
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
696
I'm not suggesting that this be done but, if that was me on the receiving end I'd immediately elect to take it to court. The girl has (allegedly) received authorisation to travel on said train by a representative of the company. No attempt has been made to leave the station to which she has been overcarried to and indeed an attempt was being made to travel to the intended destination. Truth is, the bloke at Cambridge obviously hadn't realised that the train didn't stop at Hatfield. These common sense-less F.C.C. inspectors then went on to become the very manna that the Daily Mail and it's readership thrives on. Even the most brainless chump should be able to work out what was happening here.
As a slight aside.....put a text enquiry into the NetworkRail number - 84950 - for London Victoria to Redhill departing at 17.00 and you will be told to take the 17.00 to Gatwick Airport and then the 17.42 from Gatwick Airport back to Redhill. There, you've been told to get overcarried and a bloke in a red uniform coat at Gatwick Airport station tried it on with me until I showed him the text message on my 'phone!
 
Last edited:

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,132
Location
0036
Perhaps that's a valid itinerary, but it is one that is valid with only one ticket?
 

michael769

Established Member
Joined
9 Oct 2005
Messages
2,006
That has to be done in a criminal prosecution anyway, regardless of whether "strict proof" is claimed.

Sometimes magistrates (who often have less legal training than the prosecutor) need to be reminded of that.

It is principally used when a defendant intends to rely on a statutory defence (such as part 3(iii) of Byelaw 18), but instead of presenting proof to establish the defence they wish to require the prosecution to prove that it does not apply (they are entitled to use either approach)

Strict proof in a civil case is used to ask the court to force the other party to provide proof that their claim meets a relevant statutory requirement.

The problem with strict proof in criminal cases is that it is sometimes used as a gambit by a guilty defendant to bring in a statutory defense, without having to answer questions about it - so it can make it look like the defendant is hiding something. For that reason it is best reseved for situations where the defendant is having trouble producing evidence to support their defense.
 
Last edited:

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,753
Location
Essex
Fair enough Michael, as I said, I had only heard of it in a civil sense before rather than claiming a statutory defence but being unable to produce the evidence for it.
 
Joined
29 Aug 2010
Messages
696
But you used it to support a claim that you could double back on one ticket!

It wasn't a claim, it was a factual piece of information given to me by a rail company. The trains given didn't include the caveat that, "You may need to purchase an additional ticket for this journey" or something to that effect.
 

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
7,872
Location
Crayford
84950 is the live departures text message number. It tells you how trains are running. It has nothing to do with tickets. If you put VIC-RDH at 1700 on Monday into the journey planner it gives you two options at £22.40 (changing at GTW) and the rest at £9.90 (either direct or changing at ECR).
 

AlterEgo

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
20,248
Location
No longer here
It wasn't a claim, it was a factual piece of information given to me by a rail company. The trains given didn't include the caveat that, "You may need to purchase an additional ticket for this journey" or something to that effect.

That's because it's a live departures application. You haven't even asked it what ticket or tickets you'll need to make the journey. I'm unsure of the point you're trying to make.
 

benk1342

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2011
Messages
367
Location
Welwyn Garden City
84950 is the live departures text message number. It tells you how trains are running. It has nothing to do with tickets.

That's because it's a live departures application. You haven't even asked it what ticket or tickets you'll need to make the journey. I'm unsure of the point you're trying to make.

I think it at least demonstrates that this is an error that many lay passengers could make. I think a lot of people would think they could rely on the text-message service to return only valid journeys. I appreciate that this isn't completely reasonable given that the user has not told the system what tickets he/she has or intends to buy, but it is at least an understandable error.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,841
Location
Yorkshire
..As a slight aside.....
The problem with these slight asides is that we go off on a tangent, in a direction that isn't of relevance or assistance to the OPs situation. In your case, you were on dubious grounds with that (unless it actually gave you fare information and said it was possible on the ticket(s) you held, but it sounds like that wasn't the case!) which is quite different to the OPs situation.

There really is nothing we can add to this until the OP gets back to us with more information.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top