Nottingham 'Bus War'

[WillPS]

Hang on - aren't we complaining about exactly what privatisation is all about - making unprofitable routes profitable?

As if to antagonise TB - premiere have announced their intention to run along the old route: http://premierebus.blogspot.com/2012/01/nottingham-skylink.html

 

[MCR247]

Oh great, the bus war makes it to the airport :roll:

What a great image to give people arriving into Nottingham

But no way will the 'PremSKY' make a profit, as remember I'd say half of the angry comments are because they can't use their NCT tickets, so you've easily lots most of the skylink passengers which were from Clifton - Nottingham so they will now take the 1/2/3/4 and not the PremSKY

 

[radamfi]

Hang on - aren't we complaining about exactly what privatisation is all about - making unprofitable routes profitable?

Just to avoid confusion, there is a difference between 'privatisation' and 'deregulation'. Many countries have tendered their buses to private operators, notably the Netherlands which has tendered nearly all their buses. Only buses in Rotterdam, The Hague and Amsterdam are still run by municipal operators.

However, the UK is unique in rich countries in having deregulation where operators can compete on the same routes.

 

[tom1649]

Hang on - aren't we complaining about exactly what privatisation is all about - making unprofitable routes profitable?

In many (especially rural) areas after deregulation, unprofitable routes which were supposed to stand on their own feet ended up having to be propped up by local councils. In various cuts over the years many of these 'tendered' services have been reduced or cut completely. It mattered nothing to the government of the time that many of these services were socially necessary.

Our local bus route is an example of this. In 1995 we had an hourly daytime service, with the last bus at about 22.30. Wind forward to 2012 and we now have only 6 buses a day with the last bus at 18.00. I guess we should be grateful that we have any at all.

Deregulation has not worked in rural areas and it often doesn't work very well in urban areas either.

 

[martinsh]

Our local bus route is an example of this. In 1995 we had an hourly daytime service, with the last bus at about 22.30. Wind forward to 2012 and we now have only 6 buses a day with the last bus at 18.00. I guess we should be grateful that we have any at all.
.

Whereabouts is that then ? [ Also deregulation happened in 1986, not 1995, please compare to 1986 timetable if you want to blame deregulation ]

 

[tom1649]

Whereabouts is that then ? [ Also deregulation happened in 1986, not 1995, please compare to 1986 timetable if you want to blame deregulation ]

Rural Derbyshire.
I know that deregulation happened in October 1986, but 1995 is the earliest I can find.

What do you want me to blame then? Are you saying that if deregulation hadn't happened our service would be worse than it is now?

 

[tbtc]

I've seen First maps that are so operator-specific that they don't put other Frist subsidiaries on the map (so First Leeds didn't have the Leeds - Halifax service on it because it's run by First Halifax...)

It's confusing.

The Sheffield maps have Rotherham town centre on them (because its only just over the M1), but nothing to say that only certain services are shown (IIRC they even exclude some Rotherham based services which run into "Sheffield" - the 29/29A/43 serve Meadowhall which is this side of the motorway)...

http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/sou...planning/maps/sheffield/Sheffield_Network.pdf

 

[martinsh]

Rural Derbyshire.
I know that deregulation happened in October 1986, but 1995 is the earliest I can find.

That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought Derbyshire was one of the counties which had fared particularly badly under Deregulation. Taking an example off the top of my head, at Deregulation there was NO service between Buxton and Macclesfield, now it's hourly - and well used from my experience.

What do you want me to blame then? Are you saying that if deregulation hadn't happened our service would be worse than it is now?

no, but the service before deregulation might have been worse than it was in 1995 - see my example above.

 

[neilmc]

I moved to South Manchester in 1985 and found GMT services and fares quite poor - no all-day tickets or cheap off-peak fares like in West Yorkshire, and a view that everything was centred on Manchester; to get from Wythenshawe to Stockport or Altrincham even during the day was quite a low frequency.

We are now in the Stagecoach empire and I reluctantly admit that many things are better - individual cash fares are inordinately high but weekly tickets are very reasonable, many routes have a better daytime frequency than 27 years ago, services are fairly reliable and there are few clapped-out wrecks rolling around. The airport is especially well-served and I wonder whether GM would ever have contemplated an all-night service. The long-defunct Bee Line company first pioneered a lot of high frequency Wythenshawe-based routes which GM Buses then had to compete with and some are still around; although most competitors are now gone, Stagecoach still has the East Yorkshire subsidiary Finglands to keep them honest.

On the other hand, when I look at how First have served Leeds in the interim with Metro apparently powerless to prevent continual decline you have to say it's a mixed bag.

 

[radamfi]

Greater Manchester was the only PTE not to pursue a low fares policy. Fares were frozen in the early 80s but before that there were huge fare rises which didn't happen in the other PTE areas. The major politicians in GM believed in big roads and car orientated policies, notably Graham Stringer.

Deregulation is a postcode lottery depending on who happens to be running your local buses. Clearly north Manchester is far worse than south Manchester as it is mostly run by First.

Night buses around Heathrow and Schiphol are very comprehensive so it is possible to run night airport buses without deregulation. Obviously air travel wasn't anywhere near as big before deregulation so there is no reason to doubt that if London style tendering had happened outside London there would be night buses to Manchester Airport now.

 

[tbtc]

I moved to South Manchester in 1985 and found GMT services and fares quite poor - no all-day tickets or cheap off-peak fares like in West Yorkshire, and a view that everything was centred on Manchester; to get from Wythenshawe to Stockport or Altrincham even during the day was quite a low frequency.

We are now in the Stagecoach empire and I reluctantly admit that many things are better - individual cash fares are inordinately high but weekly tickets are very reasonable, many routes have a better daytime frequency than 27 years ago, services are fairly reliable and there are few clapped-out wrecks rolling around. The airport is especially well-served and I wonder whether GM would ever have contemplated an all-night service. The long-defunct Bee Line company first pioneered a lot of high frequency Wythenshawe-based routes which GM Buses then had to compete with and some are still around; although most competitors are now gone, Stagecoach still has the East Yorkshire subsidiary Finglands to keep them honest.

On the other hand, when I look at how First have served Leeds in the interim with Metro apparently powerless to prevent continual decline you have to say it's a mixed bag.

Its strange how some places haven't had much competition on "internal" corridors (ignoring the Arriva presence on arterial routes to Huddersfield/ Wakefield). There's more competition on local routes in Barnsley (Stagecoach, Redline, Tates...) than there is in Leeds (the Blazefield routes are only there for longer distance reasons).

 

[ashworth]

I find Trent/Barton fares very high in rural Nottinghamshire once you stray a short distance away from the main routes into Nottingham where there may be some competition.

Interestingly all TB fares are now available to view on their website. For example looking at fares on the 141 route the fares seem ridiculously high from villages like Linby and Papplewick into Nottingham in comparison to Hucknall that from Linby is only just over a mile away!
Also it's only £3.10 for a day Return to Nottingham by train from Hucknall.

 

[trentside]

I find Trent/Barton fares very high in rural Nottinghamshire once you stray a short distance away from the main routes into Nottingham where there may be some competition.

Interestingly all TB fares are now available to view on their website. For example looking at fares on the 141 route the fares seem ridiculously high from villages like Linby and Papplewick into Nottingham in comparison to Hucknall that from Linby is only just over a mile away!
Also it's only £3.10 for a day Return to Nottingham by train from Hucknall.

At least they're being upfront with their fares - there are very few operators that publish these.

We've had this discussion elsewhere recently, but it seems bus fares are similarly expensive everywhere. For example, my local bus route in Lincoln is £2.10 single for a 4 mile journey, or £4.10 return.

 

[WillPS]

Oh great, the bus war makes it to the airport :roll:

What a great image to give people arriving into Nottingham

But no way will the 'PremSKY' make a profit, as remember I'd say half of the angry comments are because they can't use their NCT tickets, so you've easily lots most of the skylink passengers which were from Clifton - Nottingham so they will now take the 1/2/3/4 and not the PremSKY

I rather hope they go for the brand "RedSKY" myself!

At least they're being upfront with their fares - there are very few operators that publish these.

We've had this discussion elsewhere recently, but it seems bus fares are similarly expensive everywhere. For example, my local bus route in Lincoln is £2.10 single for a 4 mile journey, or £4.10 return.

Indeed, fares on the journey I did last year on the Stagecoach RoadCar 60 (*shudders* Thealby - Scunthorpe) were roughly the same. I don't understand why operators even offer returns which offer such crap savings.

At least with Trent most of the returns are actually "two trips" offering much more flexibility than the Day Returns Stagecoach offer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also interesting to note that Kinchbus have registered a cancellation on the Kinchbus 9 - another Red victory?

Premiere have really stood the test of time well - I'd just love them to start a base to apply some competition on NCT who get away with far too much.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Premiere have really stood the test of time well - I'd just love them to start a base to apply some competition on NCT who get away with far too much.

NCT get away with far too much? How come they have one of the newest fleets and the highest levels of investment outside of London? How come they were the first company to introduce smart cards, well before Oyster was even thought of in London? How come they are one of the first companies that is introducing it's *own* real time information system (not just using the council's system) including onbus displays and annoucements, displays at stops and an app for smartphones? How about that they played a big part in what is widely acknoledged as the most sucessful new generation tramway in the UK? Ok they aren't perfect, but who is?

 

[trentside]

Also interesting to note that Kinchbus have registered a cancellation on the Kinchbus 9 - another Red victory?

Effective from 25th March, I believe.

The fares on the 9 would not have been sustainable long term, it was purely designed as a spoiler for the X9/Red9. Premiere dealt with that threat a few months ago by retiming the Red9 to run a few minutes ahead of the Kinch 9 - which had been timetabled to run just in front of the X9... :roll:

 

[ashworth]

At least they're being upfront with their fares - there are very few operators that publish these.

We've had this discussion elsewhere recently, but it seems bus fares are similarly expensive everywhere. For example, my local bus route in Lincoln is £2.10 single for a 4 mile journey, or £4.10 return.

Whilst I agree this is generally the normal level of fares these days on rural routes, I still feel Trent Bartons fares are especially high on their 141 route.
Papplewick to Hucknall which is only half that distance at 2 miles is £2.10 single and £4.50 return. Although I live in that area, I have not used the 141 service for at least 10 years as I refuse to pay those fares and so prefer to walk into Hucknall and then use the tram or train.

It is quite noticable that the only people from the villages who use this service on a regular basis are Senior Cirtizens who use their bus pass and travel free. If that why the paying passengers have to pay such high fares to subsidise them? Although I'm now in my early 50's and would like to be able to look forward to free travel, I have the feeling that it will no longer be available by the time I retire!

 

[WillPS]

NCT get away with far too much? How come they have one of the newest fleets and the highest levels of investment outside of London? How come they were the first company to introduce smart cards, well before Oyster was even thought of in London? How come they are one of the first companies that is introducing it's *own* real time information system (not just using the council's system) including onbus displays and annoucements, displays at stops and an app for smartphones? How about that they played a big part in what is widely acknoledged as the most sucessful new generation tramway in the UK? Ok they aren't perfect, but who is?

RE: Newest Fleet
It is also the most uncomfortable fleet with totally unforgiving rock-solid seating. Not comfy in the slightest.

RE: Smart Cards
Yes - they introduced smart cards but there was no advantage for customers - you still had to queue up in the travel centre to top it up, for a long time there was no way of topping up online and when it came you had to wait up to 3 days for a human being to process the transaction - hardly 'smart'.

Comparison with Oyster is laughable - in fact, the Bus Card was nothing more than a digitally stored Easyrider - the advantages were all NCTs'.

RE: Real time display
Hardly worth the money from what I've seen. The other day I waited 5 mins for a bus supposedly 1 min away. Might as well save the time, leave the timing representative and have the scrolling text at the bottom show delays.

RE: on board announcements
Annoying. Also doesn't help that they've employed an 8-year-old who can't pronounce words properly.

Should be noted that Trent's Rainbow 5 had this years ago and they chose not to roll it out elsewhere because customers didn't like it.

RE: the tramline
Depends how you're measuring success, and how much credit you're giving NCT. For my money, Nottingham's tram (as it stands) is one of the least (if not the least) useful systems in the country. Phase Two will make it actually useful to more than just those who live in Hucknall/Bulwell/Hyson Green, but they have sod all to do with that.

So, shall we talk about customer service?

Whilst I agree this is generally the normal level of fares these days on rural routes, I still feel Trent Bartons fares are especially high on their 141 route.
Papplewick to Hucknall which is only half that distance at 2 miles is £2.10 walk into Hucknall and then use the tram or train.

It is quite noticable that the only people from the villages who use this service on a regular basis are Senior Cirtizens who use their bus pass and travel free. If that why the paying passengers have to pay such high fares to subsidise them? Although I'm now in my early 50's and would like to be able to look forward to free travel, I have the feeling that it will no longer be available by the time I retire!

For a non-PTE, rural public service, the 141 is simply a brilliant service though. I'd swap the rubbish timetables most similar services have for *slightly* higher fares anytime. I appreciate in Papplewick and Linby it feels a lot more expensive but that's because the tram and its single fare system brings disparity. Hopefully Trent will sort this out - it makes no sense short hops costing the same as the full 35 minute journey.

 

[MCR247]

RE: Real time display
Hardly worth the money from what I've seen. The other day I waited 5 mins for a bus supposedly 1 min away. Might as well save the time, leave the timing representative and have the scrolling text at the bottom show delays.

They fully p**** me off. It would be better if they said:

1632 36 Chilwell 2 min
or something, as I was at the bus stop the other day, and it said 45 Gedling 1 minute. This is at 1647.

1648 - 2 minutes?!!?!
1649 - 2 minutes
1650 - 1 minute
1651 - 1 minute
1652 - due and the 45 came

What use is that to me?! I needed to go to the shop at the time, but I thought I'd obviously shouldn't go if it will be here in 1 minute. 5 minutes later I'm still at the bus stop?! If you'd have said the bus would be here at 1652 then I could have gone and got a drink. I also could have gone to the previous stop and got a seat

 

[Deerfold]

They fully p**** me off. It would be better if they said:

1632 36 Chilwell 2 min
or something, as I was at the bus stop the other day, and it said 45 Gedling 1 minute. This is at 1647.

1648 - 2 minutes?!!?!
1649 - 2 minutes
1650 - 1 minute
1651 - 1 minute
1652 - due and the 45 came

What use is that to me?! I needed to go to the shop at the time, but I thought I'd obviously shouldn't go if it will be here in 1 minute. 5 minutes later I'm still at the bus stop?! If you'd have said the bus would be here at 1652 then I could have gone and got a drink. I also could have gone to the previous stop and got a seat

Perhaps the bus was expected then but then a passenger got on with a complicated query or got into an argument with the driver. Could you design a system that could account for that?

Unfortunately these systems are at usually at their most accurate at higher prediction values (say there's 4 sets of traffic lights on the way to your stop - the bus may typically get caught at 2 of them and the averaging out works, when there's only 1 set it doesn't know if the bus will get caught or not and it may make 2 minutes difference - but if the system assumes the higher value people will complain that the bus came before the prediction said).

 

[martinsh]

RE: Newest Fleet
It is also the most uncomfortable fleet with totally unforgiving rock-solid seating. Not comfy in the slightest.

Always has been - since the 1970s at least

 

[WillPS]

Always has been - since the 1970s at least

Their standard was pretty uncomfy in the 70s but it got better and their fleets between the N113s of the 80s and the last of the Tridents were all comfy standard bus seats - what they have now are just plain painful.

 

[trentside]

Their standard was pretty uncomfy in the 70s but it got better and their fleets between the N113s of the 80s and the last of the Tridents were all comfy standard bus seats - what they have now are just plain painful.

Unfortunately, many operators have switched to these plastic seats with only a thin fabric covering. I think a lot of it is to do with vandalism and (in many cases) cheapness.

I travelled to school for a few years on 3 ex-Nottingham Atlanteans, which had the most appalling seats in them. Still, even by 2006 they were rare enough for them to be a real treat (the buses, not the seats!).

 

[Heinz57]

Just off on a slight tangent, it has been reported that Felix of Stanley have sold their bus operations to TrentBarton, the coach work passing to Swiftsure of Burton on Trent.

Indeed. This Saturday (28th Janurary) is the last day of Felix Bus Services.

Swiftsure have indeed bought the coach services, along with the naming rights of 'Felix' (The leaflets advertising the trips have already been headed with the Swiftsure name and logo). It was originaly thought that the bus service going over to Welglade was going to still be called 'Felix' however, with Swiftsure having the naming rights this obviously isn't going to happen. The bus service may be under the Notts+Derby brand, or just be called The Black Cat. I'm not 100% sure on that one.

It has also been decided what is happening with the vehcles. Felix's three newest buses, I beleive they are Varios. Are going to be used on the Skylink.
Felix's three Scanias - 03, 04 and 05 will be used as normal on the ex-Felix bus routes. 03 and 05 on the Black Cat and 04 on the Ilkeston Flyer.

Any remaining buses will for the time being remain at the old Stanley depot (Which Swiftsure will be using as a base for the Felix Coaches I beleive) and along with the coashes will cover the school runs and other contract work until they end sometime in March. I'm not sure what will be happening with the vehcles then. Either be sold off or probably end up with Wellglade.

So there we go. As of Saturday, over 75 years of reliable, friendly and professional bus service will come to an end as Felix cease to exist. For alot of people this of course means nothing. However for many more people, including myself who have been a regular and loyal customers of Felix, it comes as a bit of a shocker. For many years it was alwas just Felix on the Ilkeston - Derby run, until Trent moved on the scene in the 90s.

Another victory for the reds.

 

[trentside]

It has also been decided what is happening with the vehcles. Felix's three newest buses, I beleive they are Varios. Are going to be used on the Skylink.

Thanks for the update Heinz57.

Regarding the newest vehicles at Felix, these are two VDL SB120s and a single Volvo B7RLE, both of which carry Plaxton Centro bodywork.

 

[Heinz57]

No probs.

And thanks for correcting me on the vehcles. I can never remember what they are, I knew there was a V in there somewhere though

 

[tbone]

I had heard that the VDL Centros were headed to Notts and Derby, not sure how true this is though

With regards to skylink, they're effectively killing several birds with one stone.They move all those travelling from the airport to Nottingham onto one bus (well that was the intention...) as well as running a limited stop service between Nottingham and Long Eaton, thus competing with Red5.

The RedFlyer (the Premiere coach link won't last long in my opinion, it just seems like an attempt to annoy Trent another time

 

[WillPS]

Why have the Felix routes been re-registered as Midland General rather than Trent Barton?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The RedFlyer (the Premiere coach link won't last long in my opinion, it just seems like an attempt to annoy Trent another time

I honestly think that's rubbish. Premiere is a business formed with the intention of making money. They have a history of taking supposedly uncommercial routes and commercialising them successfully. Premiere didn't take on the 99 to wind up Trent, they took it on as they believed there was money to be made. This situation is really not too different to that - many commentators have stated that the service could be reduced and commercialised quite easily, more fool NCT for not taking that opportunity.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unfortunately, many operators have switched to these plastic seats with only a thin fabric covering. I think a lot of it is to do with vandalism and (in many cases) cheapness.

I travelled to school for a few years on 3 ex-Nottingham Atlanteans, which had the most appalling seats in them. Still, even by 2006 they were rare enough for them to be a real treat (the buses, not the seats!).

They had a very small lumbar support but then remember how uncomfortable the ex-FNW Pacers were before Northern repadded them! I doubt much repadding went on in their lives, particularly with the second hand operators.

As I recall, the mid-70s Atlanteans were the worst as some of the seats had a bloody wooden squab!

 

[trentside]

Why have the Felix routes been re-registered as Midland General rather than Trent Barton?

There was apparently a covenant in the will of the company founder preventing the business from being sold to Trent. Therefore, the company was officially sold to and will be operated by Midland General.

While Premiere may make a success of the direct route to the Airport, it should be considered that the people in Clifton, who they are seeking to help, are upset at the loss of their NCT service, which they can use their NCT tickets on - 24 hours a day. The Premiere service is unlikely to be running 24hrs, and will not accept NCT tickets - so that market is gone.

On the other hand, maybe they could route via East Midlands Parkway, to provide a bus to the airport?

 

[ChrisCooper]

There was apparently a covenant in the will of the company founder preventing the business from being sold to Trent. Therefore, the company was officially sold to and will be operated by Midland General.

While Premiere may make a success of the direct route to the Airport, it should be considered that the people in Clifton, who they are seeking to help, are upset at the loss of their NCT service, which they can use their NCT tickets on - 24 hours a day. The Premiere service is unlikely to be running 24hrs, and will not accept NCT tickets - so that market is gone.

On the other hand, maybe they could route via East Midlands Parkway, to provide a bus to the airport?

I think most people are upset about their link to the airport being lost, which includes people who live in Wilford and Clifton and work at the airport who are not looking at having to either get a car or leave their jobs (not a great thing at a time like this when there are not going to be other jobs to walk into). Most NCT tickets aren't valid beyond Clifton anyway (on either the Skylink or the 1). NCT themselves are looking at what they can do to replace the Nottingham to Clifton part of the Skylink by changes to their existing 1,2,3 and 4 which run the same route to Clifton.