Nottingham 'Bus War'

[MCR247]

Premiere to accept other operators tickets on Red5 services
In addition to every day road issues the tram works are causing delays on a daily basis along our Red5 route. After spending the last few afternoon peaks monitoring this situation it appears that this is affecting all bus services along these routes. With people frustrated and wanting to get home as soon as possible it would really help if you could get on the first bus that is going to your destination. With this in mind from Monday we will be accepting other operators PAPER TICKETS on our Red5 service. So if a Red 5 arrives first but you hold a ticket for another operator then just hop on and our driver will accept it.

Just seen this on the premiere website. Interesting. Aw how nice of them

 

[ashworth]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but there are now a lot of pages to read through....

What has happened on the Pronto Service between Nottingham and Mansfield/Chesterfield? I know that this has always been run jointly by Trent-Barton and Stagecoach East Midlands and I also understand Stagecoach have always operated a few more buses than Trent-Barton on this route.
However, recently Stagecoach seem to have introduced lots of extra services between Nottingham and Mansfield which seem to be timetabled 5 minutes before a bus scheduled to be operated by Trent-Barton

I thought it was a service operated jointly by the two companies with a friendly agreement between them, but it now seems that Stagecoach are trying to force Trent-Barton off the route.

 

[tbone]

Just seen this on the premiere website. Interesting. Aw how nice of them

Bad move if you ask me, people will just get Indigo into town on the basis they can get either service back!

Sorry if this has already been discussed but there are now a lot of pages to read through....

What has happened on the Pronto Service between Nottingham and Mansfield/Chesterfield? I know that this has always been run jointly by Trent-Barton and Stagecoach East Midlands and I also understand Stagecoach have always operated a few more buses than Trent-Barton on this route.
However, recently Stagecoach seem to have introduced lots of extra services between Nottingham and Mansfield which seem to be timetabled 5 minutes before a bus scheduled to be operated by Trent-Barton

I thought it was a service operated jointly by the two companies with a friendly agreement between them, but it now seems that Stagecoach are trying to force Trent-Barton off the route.

Stagecoach have tried to muscle Trent Barton off the route, supposedly in response to Trent Barton running the Threes every 10 minutes between Sutton and Mansfield. All Stagecoach Pronto times were moved five minutes ahead with added journeys 5 minutes before Trent Barton ones. At the moment it seems that Trent Barton are relectant to concede on this one!

 

[MCR247]

Why don't they just introduce mango?!

 

[CallySleeper]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but there are now a lot of pages to read through....

What has happened on the Pronto Service between Nottingham and Mansfield/Chesterfield? I know that this has always been run jointly by Trent-Barton and Stagecoach East Midlands and I also understand Stagecoach have always operated a few more buses than Trent-Barton on this route.
However, recently Stagecoach seem to have introduced lots of extra services between Nottingham and Mansfield which seem to be timetabled 5 minutes before a bus scheduled to be operated by Trent-Barton

I thought it was a service operated jointly by the two companies with a friendly agreement between them, but it now seems that Stagecoach are trying to force Trent-Barton off the route.

TB and S/c were once a happily married couple when it came to the Pronto. It now appears, with regret that they have divorced!

Personally, as a loyal TB supporter, I was angered and disappointed when S/c started doing this at the beginning of September. I've not been in TB land since this started so I don't know (but would be interested to find out!) how it's affecting them, particularly if they are loosing customers. However, according to their twitter feed it does appear there are a few who are equally disgusted and sticking with TB.

I hope that TB will respond, maybe with a fast (limited stop) bus to Nottingham and new branding, but obviously there is nothing public yet. I had also hoped/read that mango and zigzag would be reintroduced, but I've found out from this thread that zigzag still doesn't exist on TB pronto. I don't know about mango but it would be fantastic if it was (confirmation please?!) Obviously, it might actually take a response from TB to introduce this which certainly myself and probably many others are eagerly awaiting, it's been two months now!!

 

[radamfi]

25 years of deregulation shows that competition between 2 big companies is mostly pointless, leading to both companies losing money before they retreat to their original routes. On the other hand, joint services seem to be frowned upon by the competition authorities, unless backed by a Quality Partnership like in Merseyside, Sheffield, Chester and Oxford.

So perhaps this is a phoney bus war to demonstrate that the operators aren't in collusion. The joint service may well be reintroduced as part of a Quality Partnership backed by the council.

 

[WillPS]

I think it was a bit short sighted for there not to have been a clause in the agreement behind the Pronto brand that both sides have to agree to any timetable changes.

 

[Deerfold]

I think it was a bit short sighted for there not to have been a clause in the agreement behind the Pronto brand that both sides have to agree to any timetable changes.

That may have made it more likely for it to fall foul of competition laws.

I suspect they have a very simple agreement that they both sell tickets and keep all the proceeds themselves but accept each other's returns - so long as both companies run the same proportion of buses at equal intervals then this would be fair.

 

[MCR247]

But afaiaa Trent Barton only run half of the services as far as Mansfield, from where it is all stagecoach.

Like I've said before, I think a rapid three is in order

 

[Deerfold]

But afaiaa Trent Barton only run half of the services as far as Mansfield, from where it is all stagecoach.

Like I've said before, I think a rapid three is in order

No, trentbarton run approximately a third of the services (ignoring the new extra ones) including as far as Chesterfield:

https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/services/pronto/maps-and-times

Interesting that Trentbarton show all the journeys in their timetable but Stagecoach now only show their own (including ignoring the 0130 and 0300 journeys from Nottingham):

http://www.stagecoachbus.com/PdfUploads/Timetable_28468_Pronto.pdf

old one was:

http://www.stagecoachbus.com/PdfUploads/Timetable_783_Pronto.pdf

 

[MCR247]

Ah ok I wasn't aware of that. I was under the impression that it ran with a basic 4bph but evidently not

 

[ashworth]

I hope that TB will respond, maybe with a fast (limited stop) bus to Nottingham and new branding, but obviously there is nothing public yet. I had also hoped/read that mango and zigzag would be reintroduced, but I've found out from this thread that zigzag still doesn't exist on TB pronto. I don't know about mango but it would be fantastic if it was (confirmation please?!) Obviously, it might actually take a response from TB to introduce this which certainly myself and probably many others are eagerly awaiting, it's been two months now!!

Although I am also mainly on the side of TB on this one, it isn't just the fact that TB will not allow Zigzag tickets to be used on the Pronto service. Stagecoach also do not allow their Explorer ticket to be used on Pronto. I find this very annoying when it is valid on all other Stagecoach buses in Nottinghamshire, Derbyshire and into Yorkshire.

I wonder whether it is time for TB to pull out of this service as they actually operate very few buses on this route in comparison to Stagecoach. I like the idea of a Fast 3 Nottingham to Mansfield service run by TB instead. What do people think the route should be for such a service. I personally think TB should leave the current route via the A60 to Stagecoach and run a fast service via Hucknall. Running via Hucknall and then on to Annesley and direct up the A611 (Derby Road) to Mansfield avoiding Kirkby and Sutton would still be a fast enough journey (with the right fares) to attract through Nottingham to Mansfield travellers but would also provide a much needed quick service between Hucknall and Mansfield.

Having said that, the train will probably always be quicker between Hucknall and Mansfield. However, a fast bus would be popular with those with concessionary bus passes.

 

[CallySleeper]

I wonder whether it is time for TB to pull out of this service as they actually operate very few buses on this route in comparison to Stagecoach. I like the idea of a Fast 3 Nottingham to Mansfield service run by TB instead. What do people think the route should be for such a service. I personally think TB should leave the current route via the A60 to Stagecoach and run a fast service via Hucknall. Running via Hucknall and then on to Annesley and direct up the A611 (Derby Road) to Mansfield avoiding Kirkby and Sutton would still be a fast enough journey (with the right fares) to attract through Nottingham to Mansfield travellers but would also provide a much needed quick service between Hucknall and Mansfield.

Having said that, the train will probably always be quicker between Hucknall and Mansfield. However, a fast bus would be popular with those with concessionary bus passes.

With only four out of the ten [I think ten] diagrams daily before the change it does make you wonder what TB see of their involvement, but I wonder if it may just be so that they have at least a share in the market - obviously a big one and probably a market that both TB and SC want a foot in.

Re: a rapid 3. I was just thinking earlier about how this could be routed. This is all hypothetical but if was to be given that name then it would obviously have to have something in common with the current threes route (which it doesn't currently).

My problem with it avoiding the A60 (ie your suggestion) is that I believe there is a market in the south Mansfield/Ravenshead area that would benefit from a fast bus to Nottingham. Problem with A611 then is that it misses out these areas, and also I can't think how long it would take Nottingham - Mansfield fast via A611 but I wonder if it would be quicker A60.

The train (and tram in Bulwell/Hucknall's case?) is obviously quicker than the three, as far as Kirkby/Sutton, but a fast bus A60 to Mansfield would probably challenge even the train, even if it did avoid the Kirkby/Sutton market.

Had wondered about Nottingham - Hucknall - Ravenshead - Mansfield but I don't know if that would be as much a fast pronto/three as a fast 141!

How about a 'fork' route - Nottingham - Ravenshead fast - Mansfield/Kirkby - Sutton? Could run every ten or fifteen mins in the core. Or is that too outside the box even by TB standards?!

 

[tbone]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...8038692246858466:mf_story_key.511676868851426

Premiere Travel anger over Nottingham roadworks

A bus company has said problems caused by three separate sets of roadworks are causing it delays and losses.

Premiere Travel said fewer people were using its Nottingham to Long Eaton route after one-way journey times had doubled to more than an hour.

Disruption has been caused by work on a new tram line, as well as separate drainage and gas works.

Nottinghamshire County Council said it was doing all it could to minimise problems.

Family business
Jamie Swift, a manager at the bus company, said: "Less people have been travelling because they know how long it's taking.

"It should take a bus one hour, 20 minutes to do the round trip on that route [from Nottingham to Long Eaton and back again], but at times it has been taking two hours, 40 minutes - you are doubling the times."

The Red5 route normally runs every 10 minutes during the day, but Premiere Travel has now reduced the frequency to every 20 minutes.

...

 

[trentside]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...8038692246858466:mf_story_key.511676868851426

I don't like rumours, but they've been flying around for awhile...

I can't help but feel it's an attempt to bury the bad news that the Red5 isn't as viable as it first appeared. The Long Eaton Xprss didn't work, so why should the Red5 be any different? It actually avoids some places people might want to go and relies on through traffic into Nottingham.

 

[MCR247]

Honestly, I thought Red5 could have worked as an every 20 minute service, however every 10 minutes...

(And them going on the logic that running double amount of single decker would be the same?!)

 

[Bunting14]

Every time i've gone from Nottm to Long Eaton the roadworks at Chilwell have always delayed me more than the tram works. Its not as if University Boulevard isn't jammed during peak hours anyway.

 

[redthunder]

The worrying thing is quite a lot of the day Indigo is turning out to be a quicker journey between Long Eaton & Nottingham as that misses the Roadworks out at Olympia compared to Red5 & Skylink (Nottingham)
The train would make a killing between the 2 places if Long Eaton train station was actually more in Long Eaton instead of nearer Sawley (You have a 20 minute walk or a just over 5 min bus ride at a cost of £1.40 to get between the Station & the Centre/Green)

 

[tbone]

Apparently Premiere's Local 17 is to be withdrawn from January, this effectively runs against Trent Barton's i4 service from Nottingham as far as Stapleford.

 

[CallySleeper]

I'm not sure it's exactly monopolising, but it does show how strong some competitors can be.

We know now they still don't take zigzag, but does anyone know whether TB pronto accepts mango? I'd heard rumours of this after the divorce but wasn't sure if they were true.

 

[MCR247]

No it doesn't

 

[ashworth]

Everyone seems to lose out on Pronto buses.
TB don't accept Zigzag or Mango and Stagecoach don't accept Explorer. If the service was just run by one company might this type of ticket be allowed for the company running it.

 

[MCR247]

Hence why I think the solars need a repaint into orange with new orange seats and a new livery

rapidthree

 

[CallySleeper]

Everyone seems to lose out on Pronto buses.
TB don't accept Zigzag or Mango and Stagecoach don't accept Explorer. If the service was just run by one company might this type of ticket be allowed for the company running it.

That's true, although I don't think either party wish to loose the route. I'm hoping TB do decide to branch out and 'retaliate', with a Mansfield xprss or whatever. I understand that TB have yet to finalise their 2013 bus order, so anything could still happen!

Although the sooner the better please Glen thanks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, I couldn't help but notice the megarider gold/weekly ticket remained at £17 for what must have been at least four or five years. Oh the memories of commuting daily back in 2008 with a twenty quid note every Monday morning!

 

[WillPS]

So is Megarider Gold not accepted on Stagecoach run Pronto services? Where is such a restriction stated?

 

[Jordeh]

Couldn't Stagecoach and TB come to an agreement similar to that of Arriva and TB on the X38? I find that works quite well as I end up using it most weekends nowadays.

4 buses per hour, one every 15 minutes, two operated by TB and two operated by Arriva. The TB buses allow ZigZag & Mango for instance and returns are accepted by each of the operators. Not really that much co-operation required other than for the timetable, seems to work well for the customer too.

 

[tbone]

Not sure what's going on with Stagecoach, they've registered a 54 Bingham - Newark, which is a Premiere service. There have been some rumours that Stagecoach may take over Premiere.

 

[MCR247]

I suppose it would be like a certain gesture to TB and would end the lack of First Stagecoach and Arriva in the city

 

[tbone]

I suppose it would be like a certain gesture to TB and would end the lack of First Stagecoach and Arriva in the city

Stagecoach are a much worse opponent that Premiere, realistically they could force Trent off corridors that they've served for up to a hundered years, so I really don't want it to happen!

It would be very difficult for anybody to break in really, to make a real impact, NCT and Trent have both shown that they put up a good fight.

 

[trentside]

Not sure what's going on with Stagecoach, they've registered a 54 Bingham - Newark, which is a Premiere service. There have been some rumours that Stagecoach may take over Premiere.

Frankly, Premiere have offered appauling service on the 54 route, especially when it comes to time-keeping. Yes, they've had to deal with the A46 roadworks, but the delays were ongoing before that even commenced - they've managed to make Veoila (the previous operator) look good. Will be interesting to see this situation develop, especially as Marshall's have registered and are now running a commercial service between Newark and Elston along the 54 route.