Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[Bald Rick]

Thanks. Therefore it should be realistic to expect the existing line to be fully electrified by the time NPR breaks ground. In such a scenario we will have a line capable of 40 min journeys between Manchester & Leeds with possibly 6 tph frequencies. Then we will seek to spend £13bn for 30 min journeys with 6 tph?

It could conceivably be an extra 6tph. Certainly an extra 4, I’d have thought.

 

[Halifaxlad]

As part of these mass transit proposals for West Yorkshire, lines labelled Transpennine and Northern Powerhouse Rail have been laid overtop.

Im not sure if this is the actual/chosen route but it is still interesting.

I do suspect it may be one of the options that has been considered.

 

[Mollman]

As part of these mass transit proposals for West Yorkshire, lines labelled Transpennine and Northern Powerhouse Rail have been laid overtop.

Im not sure if this is the actual/chosen route but it is still interesting.

I do suspect it may be one of the options that has been considered.

View attachment 89375

Intersting, whilst there is still evidence of the former 4 tracking between Bramley & Leeds there a a few bridges that will need rebuilding to re-instate it.

 

[waverley47]

NPR final route to be agreed on February 18th, current reporting suggests.

Other updates included in the article below (paywall) but given this is under the TfN banner, and not yet submitted or approved by the DfT, looks to be a long way to go yet.

Article, text below.​

"Transport for the North (TfN) is nearing a decision on its preferred Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) network, with the final route to be agreed within weeks.
The TfN board gave initial sign off to the preferred network in November, along with a phasing plan.

TfN director Tim Wood told a Westminster Policy Conference yesterday that the proposals will be given final consideration at this month's board meeting.

“The next step for the board is to review the latest cost and benefits data and reconsider and reach a final agreement on the preferred network,” he said. “This will happen this month at our 18 February board meeting.”

...

Once final agreement has been given by board members the network will be included in the business case, which Wood said is “progressing well” and “on schedule”. The board plans to consider the final version of the business case at its March meeting. Following this, the business case will be submitted to government.

In the meantime, TfN is “moving at pace across wider scheme development”, according to Wood. Early station work has begun on the Leeds to Sheffield corridor, with work progressing on proposed new stations at Barnsley Dearne Valley and Rotherham Midland Mainline stations.

“We want to make sure they’re opening their doors late 2023 early 2024,” Wood said. “So it will help the economic benefit around the Barnsley and Rotherham area.”

TfN is also working with Network to undertake ground investigation surveys between Leeds and Hull with work set to commence at the end of this month and complete in September."

 

[Bald Rick]

That will be TfNs ‘ask’.

That does not necessarily mean it is what gets built.

 

[CdBrux]

That will be TfNs ‘ask’.

That does not necessarily mean it is what gets built.

which probably depends, in part, if they decide to almost deliberately ask for something way above what the government is likely to have funding for in order to create an argument

 

[matacaster]

That will be TfNs ‘ask’.

That does not necessarily mean it is what gets built.

It must be nearly springtime! In this parallel universe, clouds will be in evidence and Cuckoo's will be trilling enthusiastically for this plan which is as likely to materialise as odsal stadium being the Northern wembley. Attempts to dig tunnel under centre of Bradford might make overspend on crossrail look pretty good.

 

[adrock1976]

NPR final route to be agreed on February 18th, current reporting suggests.

Other updates included in the article below (paywall) but given this is under the TfN banner, and not yet submitted or approved by the DfT, looks to be a long way to go yet.

Article, text below.​

"Transport for the North (TfN) is nearing a decision on its preferred Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) network, with the final route to be agreed within weeks.
The TfN board gave initial sign off to the preferred network in November, along with a phasing plan.

TfN director Tim Wood told a Westminster Policy Conference yesterday that the proposals will be given final consideration at this month's board meeting.

“The next step for the board is to review the latest cost and benefits data and reconsider and reach a final agreement on the preferred network,” he said. “This will happen this month at our 18 February board meeting.”

...

Once final agreement has been given by board members the network will be included in the business case, which Wood said is “progressing well” and “on schedule”. The board plans to consider the final version of the business case at its March meeting. Following this, the business case will be submitted to government.

In the meantime, TfN is “moving at pace across wider scheme development”, according to Wood. Early station work has begun on the Leeds to Sheffield corridor, with work progressing on proposed new stations at Barnsley Dearne Valley and Rotherham Midland Mainline stations.

“We want to make sure they’re opening their doors late 2023 early 2024,” Wood said. “So it will help the economic benefit around the Barnsley and Rotherham area.”

TfN is also working with Network to undertake ground investigation surveys between Leeds and Hull with work set to commence at the end of this month and complete in September."

Regarding Rotherham Midland, is that the proposal or suggestion to reopen Masborough station?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Early station work has begun on the Leeds to Sheffield corridor, with work progressing on proposed new stations at Barnsley Dearne Valley and Rotherham Midland Mainline stations

This sounds irrational considering the IRP hasn't been published yet!

 

[YorksLad12]

In the meantime, TfN is “moving at pace across wider scheme development”, according to Wood. Early station work has begun on the Leeds to Sheffield corridor, with work progressing on proposed new stations at Barnsley Dearne Valley and Rotherham Midland Mainline stations.

“We want to make sure they’re opening their doors late 2023 early 2024,” Wood said. “So it will help the economic benefit around the Barnsley and Rotherham area.”

I'm guessing that "Rotherham Midland Mainline" is the proposed reopening of Rotherham Parkway on the Masboro route close to the redevelopment (but not called Parkway, because of the tram-train stop on the other route). Barnsley Dearne Valley is a new one on me!

 

[waverley47]

That will be TfNs ‘ask’.

That does not necessarily mean it is what gets built.

Just quoting the article. I don't think any of us have any idea just what will be built.

It definitley remains to be seen just how much the government feel they can promise without actually paying for though. I have a sneaking suspicion we may be seeing more get built than we think, if only to buy votes.

 

[snowball]

Does this mean NPR is getting to about the stage HS2 was in about 2008?

 

[Starmill]

Does this mean NPR is getting to about the stage HS2 was in about 2008?

Probably about 2011-12 for phase 1?

 

[Bald Rick]

Just quoting the article. I don't think any of us have any idea just what will be built.

It definitley remains to be seen just how much the government feel they can promise without actually paying for though. I have a sneaking suspicion we may be seeing more get built than we think, if only to buy votes.

Government will be paying for all of it, and is well aware whatever it promises has to be delivered.

Does this mean NPR is getting to about the stage HS2 was in about 2008?

Probably about 2011-12 for phase 1?

Well it’s a different project, as NPR involves upgrading a lot of existing line as well as new build. But given that there hasn’t been any public consultation on routes for the new build, then I’d say it’s at about 2009 in HS2 terms for the new build (their first consultation was sin 2010). There’s some work which could be done more quickly and / or under the NPR banner. Electrifying to Hull for example, or the Transpennine upgrade work from Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe.

 

[Ianno87]

This sounds irrational considering the IRP hasn't been published yet!

Although what are, in effect, simply new stations on existing lines shouldn't need to wait on something as strategic and long term as the IRP, which is more about new routes etc.

 

[Ianno87]

Transport for the North (TfN) have now agreed the preferred route for NPR (basically the same as was the case for the initial preference in November):

Final Northern Powerhouse Rail route agreed including links with HS2 | New Civil Engineer

This includes plans to connect Sheffield to High Speed 2 (HS2) and on to Leeds. The route remains unchanged from the initial preference submitted in

www.newcivilengineer.com

Preferred route includes:​

• A new line to be constructed from Liverpool to Manchester via the centre of Warrington
• A new line to be constructed from Manchester to Leeds via the centre of Bradford
• Significant upgrades and journey time improvements to the Hope Valley route between Manchester and Sheffield
• Connecting Sheffield to HS2 and on to Leeds
• Significant upgrades and electrification of the rail lines from Leeds and Sheffield to Hull
• Significant upgrades of the East Coast Mainline from Leeds to Newcastle (via York and Darlington) and restoration of the Leamside line

The difference now is that TfN have now written to DfT to formally state this preference.

 

[ABB125]

Transport for the North (TfN) have now agreed the preferred route for NPR (basically the same as was the case for the initial preference in November):

Final Northern Powerhouse Rail route agreed including links with HS2 | New Civil Engineer

This includes plans to connect Sheffield to High Speed 2 (HS2) and on to Leeds. The route remains unchanged from the initial preference submitted in

www.newcivilengineer.com

The difference now is that TfN have now written to DfT to formally state this preference.

But still no (more) detailed plans?

 

[Ianno87]

But still no (more) detailed plans?

Not yet it seems.

 

[Bald Rick]

But still no (more) detailed plans?

Detailed plans shouldn’t be published until the organisation paying for it (DfT) has decided on a course of action. And, to be clear, it is not sitting on its hands, there are some big decisions to make.

 

[ABB125]

Detailed plans shouldn’t be published until the organisation paying for it (DfT) has decided on a course of action. And, to be clear, it is not sitting on its hands, there are some big decisions to make.

Fair enough. Any idea how long it will take?

I can just imagine the big decisions: what colour will the trains be?

 

[Ianno87]

I can just imagine the big decisions: what colour will the trains be?

Will South Pennine Day Rangers be valid on NPR?

 

[ABB125]

Will South Pennine Day Rangers be valid on NPR?

Depends on whether Bradford counts as "south"!

 

[edwin_m]

Will South Pennine Day Rangers be valid on NPR?

The biggest one of all: what kind of seats will they have?

 

[Purple Orange]

So when do people think the Integrated Rail Plan be published?

 

[InOban]

Detailed plans shouldn’t be published until the organisation paying for it (DfT) has decided on a course of action. And, to be clear, it is not sitting on its hands, there are some big decisions to make.

The DfT isn't paying, the Treasury is. And that's the problem.

 

[snowball]

So when do people think the Integrated Rail Plan be published?

I think the most recent statement is "by the end of March".

 

[Starmill]

The DfT isn't paying, the Treasury is. And that's the problem.

Like essentially all Whitehall spending is though. Many rail industry people seem to have developed an animosity to HMT that they think is unique to them, rather than it being a refrain among almost all departments.

Furthermore, and I know this is astonishingly unpopular, but take a look at it from their point of view. They see an industry which was very slow-moving and underperforming prior to the crisis. They see capital budget management at Network Rail that utterly failed to deliver the anticipated benefits. And since March 2020 they see a liability of up to £10 billion a year in current spending which the Department hasn't made any meaningful attempts to do anything about beyond just hoping that the purchases of extremely expensive Annual Season and First Anytime tickets returns in May this year just like that. A year into the pandemic the Department hasn't even managed to deliver flexible season tickets, despite promising to seven years ago in 2014. Would you have confidence in them?

 

[Bald Rick]

Furthermore, and I know this is astonishingly unpopular, but take a look at it from their point of view. They see an industry which was very slow-moving and underperforming prior to the crisis. They see capital budget management at Network Rail that utterly failed to deliver the anticipated benefits. And since March 2020 they see a liability of up to £10 billion a year in current spending

Sums it up perfectly

A year into the pandemic the Department hasn't even managed to deliver flexible season tickets, despite promising to seven years ago in 2014. Would you have confidence in them?

Ahh, you’re assuming that it is the department that’s holding it up... and I refer you to...

Like essentially all Whitehall spending is though.

 

[Glenn1969]

But will TfN get everything it asks for?

 

[Llandudno]

Will TfN get anything it asks for...!