NPR will it ever happen?

[CrossNorthPr]

If the idea is to remove fast intercity services from Castlefield, you can't force passengers to crawl through up to 4 stations through central Manchester in the middle of their trip across the Pennines. You are negating all the time-saving benefits of having ~125-140 mph lines in the first place. The services being removed are nothing like Thameslink, it needs be closer in concept to HS2, e.g. very limited stop. Ideally there would be just one Manchester stop for intercity services.

Though suboptimal, you might just about get away with Piccadilly and Salford Interchange because of the connectivity benefits, but Lincoln Square and Salford Quays are totally unnecessary and could be served better by other means (surface Metrolink/metro tunnels/RER or S-bahn tunnels). You shouldn't try to do multiple things with one piece of infrastructure, it will do all of them badly.

In short, this idea feels like it's got an identity crisis.


As an aside, there are repeated mentions of the Salford Quays stop 'relieving' Metrolink, but this is only true in the sense of potentially removing passengers from the Eccles line into Manchester. In reality this is likely to be offset by Salford Quays passengers interchanging with Metrolink for last mile travel anyway. The quantum of Metrolink services is still constrained by Cornbrook Viaduct though, so it does little for Metrolink capacity. That said, as above, you shouldn't be using an intercity line to try that anyway.

Some good points. The feedback is welcome.

On the 4 stations I’ll say this:

Salford Interchange, Piccadilly and Salford Quays are essential. You could probably get away with not doing Lincoln Square but it would be a missed opportunity as that area of the city is underserved and Piccadilly is quite a walk from that main employment area with no real, conventional tram connection. You could of course change at Salford Interchange and join “GM” metro to Chapel Street (Currently Salford Central) which is close to Spinningfields. There is a good business case for Lincoln Square however, as you’re building a tunnel under an underserved area of Manchester, you might as well put a station there.

Salford quays however is essential. If you’ve ever been there at peak times you’ll know it’s practically a city centre in its own right. It takes 29mins (on a good day) via Metrolink from Piccadilly. There is an overcrowding problem on Metrolink, so creating more space for passengers makes sense.

Secondly passive provision and operational flexibility. It is en-route to Warrington via Liverpool (Phase 2/3 New Lines either side) Initially though it will be very useful to terminate services from east of the Pennines which don’t have capacity to terminate at Lime Street. There is also (currently) more demand for trains from Leeds to Manchester than Leeds to Liverpool, so terminating some in Manchester makes good logical sense. Salford Quays is a great place to do this. It would allow an 8-10 minute journey from Piccadilly (Passengers from the south/HS2) to the employment and leisure hub of Salford Quays. Currently the journey times and crowding on trams makes commuting via public transport for people south/south east of Manchester unviable, and would chose to drive instead. The same applies to people in Liverpool/Leeds. The end to end journey times will be way over a reasonable commute time compared to driving. We need to encourage modal shift.

 

[Glenn1969]

Some good points. The feedback is welcome.

On the 4 stations I’ll say this:

Salford Interchange, Piccadilly and Salford Quays are essential. You could probably get away with not doing Lincoln Square but it would be a missed opportunity as that area of the city is underserved and Piccadilly is quite a walk from that main employment area with no real, conventional tram connection. You could of course change at Salford Interchange and join “GM” metro to Chapel Street (Currently Salford Central) which is close to Spinningfields. There is a good business case for Lincoln Square however, as you’re building a tunnel under an underserved area of Manchester, you might as well put a station there.

Salford quays however is essential. If you’ve ever been there at peak times you’ll know it’s practically a city centre in its own right. It takes 29mins (on a good day) via Metrolink from Piccadilly. There is an overcrowding problem on Metrolink, so creating more space for passengers makes sense.

Secondly passive provision and operational flexibility. It is en-route to Warrington via Liverpool (Phase 2/3 New Lines either side) Initially though it will be very useful to terminate services from east of the Pennines which don’t have capacity to terminate at Lime Street. There is also (currently) more demand for trains from Leeds to Manchester than Leeds to Liverpool, so terminating some in Manchester makes good logical sense. Salford Quays is a great place to do this. It would allow an 8-10 minute journey from Piccadilly (Passengers from the south/HS2) to the employment and leisure hub of Salford Quays. Currently the journey times and crowding on trams makes commuting via public transport for people south/south east of Manchester unviable, and would chose to drive instead. The same applies to people in Liverpool/Leeds. The end to end journey times will be way over a reasonable commute time compared to driving. We need to encourage modal shift.

Given that none of this is likely to be funded it's moot anyway. It was too expensive 10 years ago and things have got worse unless I missed something

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Does every single NPR train have to run to Leeds??

A cheaper solution to the "Bradford problem" could be to have a new NPR spur to a terminus station in Bradford from the main Manchester - Leeds NPR route, using the old alignment through the Spen Valley. This is largely intact as a cycleway. Fast hourly services could then run from Liverpool to Bradford where they would terminate. This would cost a fraction of the expense of building the proposed through station in Bradford and would massively reduce journey times relative to the slow and winding route through the Calder Valley.

 

[HSTEd]

Does every single NPR train have to run to Leeds??

A cheaper solution to the "Bradford problem" could be to have a new NPR spur to a terminus station in Bradford from the main Manchester - Leeds NPR route, using the old alignment through the Spen Valley. This is largely intact as a cycleway. Fast hourly services could then run from Liverpool to Bradford where they would terminate. This would cost a fraction of the expense of building the proposed through station in Bradford and would massively reduce journey times relative to the slow and winding route through the Calder Valley.

That would consume valuable paths on the Manchester Airport-Manchester section though wouldn't it?

That is our primary bottleneck, and whilst it is likely capable of 14-15tph (Set by ventilation shaft spacings) at the least, it is still not capable of infinite capacity

 

[CdBrux]

or evaluate sending Bradford via Halifax (stop) Brighouse (non-stop) to join the TRU / NPR line east of Huddersfield. Terminate in main shed of Piccadilly, those wanting airport, Liverpool, Crewe or Brum change at Huddersfield

 

[Purple Orange]

If NPR was to have a spur/link built to enable a destination other than Leeds to head to Manchester, would it not be more economically advantageous to prioritise the Hope Valley line to enable Sheffield-Manchester-Liverpool services to access NPR east of Manchester via Guide Bridge, rather than a link to Bradford?

Bradford would benefit more from faster, more frequent services to Leeds, whereas a Sheffield NPR link could ckear Castlefield of two more fast services.