obb ticket collection - dispute

[cfsuarc]

Hi all,
thought I'd use the UK forum because people here speak English and have common sense
So I bought a ticket online in advance to travel from Munich to Vienna using Austrian company "obb" a couple of weeks ago. The booking confirmation says:

I came to the station about 25 mins before departure, well in time to collect the ticket from a machine. I tried a machine which has a few companies' logos including DB, obb, etc. This didn't work so I went to the Deutsche Bahn (DB) station office to ask for help. They confirmed that there is no way to print an obb ticket from a Munich ticket machine and it has to be done in Austria. The train was about to depart in the meantime.
I call the obb customer service who confirm that now that the train is gone/about to go, I have no option but buying a ticket from DB (almost EUR 200 for two people) and then "trying" to get a refund for that expense.
Had I had a few more minutes I would have been able to find an internet cafe and print the thing out. Not possible in 5 minutes in a foreign city etc.

I buy the ticket and go to Vienna, then contact obb the same day which starts an email conversation, the essence of their position being: it is logical that an obb machine can only be found in Austria! And if you are traveling from outside the country, just home print.

Obviously I am requesting them to refund the large sum I paid to DB (not the EUR 58 I paid to obb initially).
All they are willing to do "as goodwill" is refund the original price - in the form of vouchers valid for one year!

The fact that they sell a ticket from Germany to Austria and still suggest collecting it from the machine in the booking confirmation is perfectly fine by them apparently. No warning that home printing is the only realistic option is also not a problem.
"In addition", I had the option of printing in an internet cafe (according to obb). Yes I would have had, had I come to the station an hour early..

Would you say I should to press the issue/complain/take them to a higher organisation? Or is it indeed perfectly logical to read between the lines the restriction on where the ticket can be printed, and I should have been smarter?
If it's the former, what can I do if I formally complain and they don't budge?

Many thanks!

 

[duesselmartin]

Its Not logical for tourists who do not know that there are no such machines outside Austria.
Especially as ÖBB are operating from Germany. It should be ab easy thing to give a warning for international trains.
I always print myself when possible.
ÖBB may be legally right by referring to their own machines,
But customer friendly is different.
Martin

 

[Wolfie]

The vast majority of OBB's online customers are, unsurprisingly, Austrian. They do offer a means, namely printing at home, for overseas purchasers to get tickets. The email acknowledgment is likely in English and may lack clarity compared to the German language version. While I am sympathetic to the OP it would have been the smart thing to check prior to 25mins before departure that you could actually get the tickets ordered. A gesture of goodwill is likely the best you will be offered. Good luck in reading the T&Cs in German...

 

[Zamracene749]

I know it's the norm in Europe, but I don't agree that it's logical ( as stated by OBB) not to find a ticket machine in a major international station abroad, in particular one with regular OBB services. After all, there are plenty of eg british airways service desks in foreign airports?

I'd have been tempted to board the train, be honest, act helpless and hope for clemency from the guard tbh! Think it's a bit stingy of them only offering vouchers too....

 

[Wolfie]

I know it's the norm in Europe, but I don't agree that it's logical ( as stated by OBB) not to find a ticket machine in a major international station abroad, in particular one with regular OBB services. After all, there are plenty of eg british airways service desks in foreign airports?

I'd have been tempted to board the train, be honest, act helpless and hope for clemency from the guard tbh! Think it's a bit stingy of them only offering vouchers too....

There are no SNCF ticket machines at stations in Germany as far as I am aware...

 

[30907]

I think the OP 's only real hope after exhausting Oebb contacts is with an Austrian consumer organisation. Sorry I can't be more specific but Google might help. Writing in English should be OK. I agree, though, that the information is incomplete.

I know it's the norm in Europe, but I don't agree that it's logical ( as stated by OBB) not to find a ticket machine in a major international station abroad, in particular one with regular OBB services. After all, there are plenty of eg british airways service desks in foreign airports?

The difference with airports is that there may be competing operators flying a route and tickets are not interavailable, so each requires a facility. This is a bit like open access in the UK, whereas European railways normally operate like codesharing airlines. It doesn't matter who operates the train, it is a joint operation - OeBB now operate Railjets to Munich while DB run ICEs to Vienna, but both issue tickets for both routes.
Hence, duplicate ticket facilities aren't normally needed.

A complication is that DB and OeBB have slightly different pricing systems, as do DB and SNCF on their joint routes, which makes it slightly more likely that people will buy online from the "wrong" country to save money. I'm intending to do that myself soon, but I won't use TOD!

 

[Zamracene749]

There are no SNCF ticket machines at stations in Germany as far as I am aware...

I don't know of a country in Europe that does carry neighbouring countries rail ticket machines. (Arriva in north Germany perhaps?) I'm well aware of that, as regular euro rail travellers are, but is it really fair to expect non regulars to know that? Surely the conditions on his print at home ticket should clearly state that the ticket cannot be dispensed from a station outside of Austria?

 

[gordonthemoron]

There are DB machines in Salzburg, Austria

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are DB machines in Salzburg, Austria

Salzburg is an oddity, because in railway terms it is a domestic German route to/from Germany run by DB with no OeBB involvement other than owning the track.

Neil

 

[radamfi]

Venlo also had a DB machine last time I was there. I'm sure I read somewhere that Roosendaal will be getting or has already got a SNCB/NMBS machine. As hinted above, Arriva Netherlands has machines on the Groningen to Leer line.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Salzburg is an oddity, because in railway terms it is a domestic German route to/from Germany run by DB with no OeBB involvement other than owning the track.

Neil

The regional service from Salzburg to Munich is now run by Meridian which is owned by BAYERISCHE OBERLANDBAHN GMBH

 

[Greenback]

I too think it would have been wise to clarify whether this ticket could be collected in Munich at some point well in advance of 25 mins before departure.

I've travelled a fair bit by rail in Europe over the years and experience tells me that collecting tickets outside the country where you purchased the tickets from is problematic to say the least. This applies even when there are strong links between the countries concerned, which in my most difficult example, were Italy and Switzerland. I always try and get print at home tickets now, and my last Swiss ticket purchase saw me paying for postage to have them delivered!

Perhaps OBB would consider amending their wording to 'from a station within Austria' so as to provide extra clarity? This is what I suggest the OP tries, though I don't think they are entitled to a refund, and anything they get back will be at the discretion of OBB.

 

[atillathehunn]

I would fight this case, but I would advise you to find someone fluent in German to help you.

The message they offer in English but be as clear, precise and unconditional as in German, if they intend it to have effect vis-a-vis another party. In this case, you. Lack of clarity is not an excuse on their part. If the ticket machine in Munchen has OBB on the side, for the purposes of the Terms and Conditions they have provided on the booking reference, that is an OBB ticket machine. If there is no domestic stipulation, their case fails. I would ask a friendly German to write you a letter stating they will refund the money, or be challenged in the courts.

 

[Greenback]

I think the OP has a good moral case for a discretionary payment, but part fo me thinks that modern society expects everything to be spelt out in minute detail whereas a lot more used to be regarded as common sense.

I'm sure that this is down to technology, and what can be done today being impossible when I was a child. It's an age thing, I suppose.

 

[atillathehunn]

No Greenback, I expect contractual obligations to be performed, regardless of the means by which the contract was drawn up and signed.

Stating that this being done on a computer somehow negates the duties of the party is nonsensical.







Sorry, reading back that was too grumpy. I'm interning in Brussels at the moment, and apparently this brings out the grumpiness in me...

 

[Greenback]

No Greenback, I expect contractual obligations to be performed.

I'm not sure how age makes a difference to this. If you were told that you could catch your steam train from Munich to Austria and told to go to the ticket window marked OBB where a gentle man (as all men were back then) would hand over your ticket, but were then informed you must be in Austria, I am sure you would have written a stiff letter to the Times.

Why should I not be inclined to believe that should such an important stipulation be included boldly on the website, and furthermore to believe that a ticket machine with OBB on the side is not an OBB ticket machine?

You cannot simply give recourse to a prior age before iPods or whatever apparently ruined this generation this week.

What exactly are these contractual obligations that you are referring to?

It's an Austrian website run by the Austrian railway company. I don't see why it needs to be specified that you can't pick up the tickets outside Austria. I find it a reasonable assumption that the wording refers to Austrian stations where I would definitely expect to find OBB machines and counters, but not necessarily outside the country.

I link this to age as I am trying, unsuccessfully apparently, to draw a distinction between the way I see things and the way that someone who could be younger might, as well as trying to point out that experience of European rail travel is also a factor, and that too comes with age. I've been in a similar situation myself, and learnt from it.

As I said, I think that the OP has grounds to put forward their view that the wording could be clearer, and if explicitly states something in German it should do the same in English.

I'm not saying anything like what you claim in the last sentence, and I resent the accusation that I am, when all I am doing is attempting to provide a bit of background and context.

 

[philjo]

I had a booking for the OBB Railjet service from Zurich to Innsbruck last summer.
It was quite a bit cheaper to book through OBB in euros than through the Swiss railways using CHF. I had noticed when trying to book online that it was not possible to collect the tickets in Switzerland but in that situation there was a print at home PDF option available for use on the railjet service.
I had booked through OBB various other tickets but was able to collect these on arrival in Innsbruck as they were for the following day (the ticket office printed them for me).

I think for the International services it is generally better to use the company of the country you are starting from as they will have an office/tvm at that station but it may not be the cheapest option.

 

[Greenback]

I think for the International services it is generally better to use the company of the country you are starting from as they will have an office/tvm at that station but it may not be the cheapest option.

I agree, that's one of the lessons I've learned.

 

[atillathehunn]

What exactly are these contractual obligations that you are referring to?

It's an Austrian website run by the Austrian railway company. I don't see why it needs to be specified that you can't pick up the tickets outside Austria. I find it a reasonable assumption that the wording refers to Austrian stations where I would definitely expect to find OBB machines and counters, but not necessarily outside the country.

I link this to age as I am trying, unsuccessfully apparently, to draw a distinction between the way I see things and the way that someone who could be younger might, as well as trying to point out that experience of European rail travel is also a factor, and that too comes with age. I've been in a similar situation myself, and learnt from it.

As I said, I think that the OP has grounds to put forward their view that the wording could be clearer, and if explicitly states something in German it should do the same in English.

I'm not saying anything like what you claim in the last sentence, and I resent the accusation that I am, when all I am doing is attempting to provide a bit of background and context.

Age and experience aren't exclusively related. Those this deviates from the point.

The point is that if the website determines that a ticket may be picked up from an OBB machine and no subsequent definition is provided of what constitutes an OBB machine then it must be assumed that a machine labelled OBB is an OBB machine. Argue the case OP.

 

[Greenback]

Age and experience aren't exclusively related. Those this deviates from the point.

I give up. I never said that they were. I was merely trying to give my opinion and the reasons why I have that opinion. You can read whatever you like into what I write, as can anyone else. Just don't put words into my mouth, thank you very much.

I don't understand your second sentence.

 

[30907]

The point is that if the website determines that a ticket may be picked up from an OBB machine and no subsequent definition is provided of what constitutes an OBB machine then it must be assumed that a machine labelled OBB is an OBB machine. Argue the case OP.

I am inclined to agree, if the Munich ticket machine advertises itself as OBB, as the OP has said; the website info in German is exactly the same, referring to machines at stations.
IIRC you can buy an Einfach Raus day rover in Bavaria, which would perhaps explain the logo.

However I still feel, as other posters do, that the OP was unwise to assume that there would be an OBB machine in the first place.

 

[Greenback]

However I still feel, as other posters do, that the OP was unwise to assume that there would be an OBB machine in the first place.

That's right, unless, of course, the OP had been to Munich recently and was aware of the machines there being labelled as OBB.

 

[cfsuarc]

Thanks a lot for your replies everybody! I really appreciate the wide-ranging opinions and some context/background
I am, in fact, not at all an experienced Euro train traveller, neither had I encountered any difficulties collecting cross-border tickets (this only happened once and I collected in the country of departure) up until now.

The exact ticket machine I tried to use in Munich is this:

The OeBB logo is there obviously.

Naturally, I tend to side with atillathehunn and others who don't think it's reasonable to interpret the booking confirmation the way OeBB meant. I also think it's an easy change that must be made on their website to include a warning.
But the contrasting views also help as a reality check.
Especially with an example or two that people posted of machines outside their "home" countries, I will argue my case and keep you posted!

Funnily enough, when I talked to an OeBB representative in Vienna at the destination station, he listened carefully to the story and then said wearily: "Yeah we have this situation a few times every day!" and started listing the countries beside Germany from which people come in similar circumstances.. Then he suggested that I fill out the refund request form (which I did).
I am pretty sure he understood me well, because when the next day I returned to give him the form and summarised the situation again, he said the same thing once again..

 

[Greenback]

I think everyone understands you, the only point of difference seems to be how reasonable it is to assume, without any specific knowledge, whether a passenger will be able to pick up a ticket bought through the Austrian Railways website from a machine located outside the country.

My default thinking on this, and I've attempted to explain why this is, would be to assume that I couldn't unless the site specifically told me I could. This is the opposite point of view to assuming I can, unless the site tells me I can't, although it's a pretty minor point in the grand scheme of things.

But I think we are all agreed that you have at the very least moral grounds for a goodwill gesture, and that you should also ask them if they can provide additional clarification to their chosen English wording. Maybe they can even provide a link to a list of stations where tickets can be collected, for the avoidance of all doubt, even though I don't think it should be automatically assumed that stations outside the country will issue their tickets.

 

[30907]

The exact ticket machine I tried to use in Munich is this:

The OeBB logo is there obviously.

The mystery deepens, because it's not a standard red DB machine.

However, a quick search confirms that it's owned by Meridian who started operating local trains including the Salzburg REs a year ago.
And this has caused considerable confusion as this photo and blog shows:
http://www.bahnblog.net/2014/02/verwirrung-in-muenchen/
(left: tickets bought here are valid on Meridian; right: buy your DB local tickets here!)

Its reasonable to think you could buy an OeBB ticket there, though TBH I don't think you would describe it as an OeBB machine. I stand by my guess about the EinfachRaus ticket being the primary offer.

But it's pretty confusing, and not only to the OP, as the blogger says.

 

[Greenback]

But it's pretty confusing, and not only to the OP, as the blogger says.

I fully agree, provided that you had been to the station and noticed that the machines had the words 'OBB' on them. I remain of the view that, unless you had seen the machines in advance, or the website had explicitly said so in regard to that particular station, the assumption should be that you can't collect tickets outside of the borders of the railway administration that sold them to you.

If the OP had been aware of the machines and labelling prior to making the decision to collect at the station, then I think they would have an even stronger case.

 

[dutchflyer]

I know it's the norm in Europe, but I don't agree that it's logical ( as stated by OBB) not to find a ticket machine in a major international station abroad, in particular one with regular OBB services. After all, there are plenty of eg british airways service desks in foreign airports?
..

Nonsense-in the eye of the normal continental. Railways are NOT airlines and that has nothing to do with it. They are state behemoths, much acting like the national postal networks-with them you can also send letters+parcels all around the world. Its utter common knowledge here that railways are thus ONLY in their own country they carry the name of present. You also cannot use a British stamp to send a letter to back home from DE or AT.
We do not even consider this as customer unfriendly, its just normal. By now Brits should have been exposed that many things they take for granted in those islands in the Northsea are rather, uh, kind of different from here-which partly baffles us.

 

[math1985]

I don't know of a country in Europe that does carry neighbouring countries rail ticket machines.

Sorry for the bump, but in Leer (Germany), there are indeed Dutch Arriva ticket machines. In Enschede, Venlo and Heerlen (all in the Netherlands) there are German machines, and in Luxembourg there is a French ticket machine. There are no doubt others.

 

[Clip]

The mystery deepens, because it's not a standard red DB machine.

However, a quick search confirms that it's owned by Meridian who started operating local trains including the Salzburg REs a year ago.
And this has caused considerable confusion as this photo and blog shows:
http://www.bahnblog.net/2014/02/verwirrung-in-muenchen/
(left: tickets bought here are valid on Meridian; right: buy your DB local tickets here!)

Its reasonable to think you could buy an OeBB ticket there, though TBH I don't think you would describe it as an OeBB machine. I stand by my guess about the EinfachRaus ticket being the primary offer.

But it's pretty confusing, and not only to the OP, as the blogger says.

Ive highlighted a part which makes the difference to me. Yes you can BUY on the day there but thats a stark difference to being able to pick up a pre ordered OBB ticket there. And thats the issue the OP has faced.

 

[30907]

Sorry for the bump, but in Leer (Germany), there are indeed Dutch Arriva ticket machines. In Enschede, Venlo and Heerlen (all in the Netherlands) there are German machines, and in Luxembourg there is a French ticket machine. There are no doubt others.

Not quite comparable with Munich, as these are interchange stations with specific routes on which Dutch or German national fares apply cross-border, rather than international tickets.