Off-Peak Return OUT on a Peak Train

[whhistle]

Train leaves Station A at 09:25. It's peak.
Train then arrives/leaves Station B at 09:35, so it's off-peak.
I want to carry on to Station C.

Can I buy an off-peak return ticket from Station A to Station C, and an anytime day single from Station A to Station B?

Thus:
I can use the anytime day single from Station A to Station B.
The use the off-peak return from Station B to Station C.
Which enables me to return to Station A within the 30 days.

I think the answer is yes, but concerned a Train Manager may not like it that the off-peak ticket isn't valid as when it was bought, the train was still peak.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Puffing Devil]

As many others will say, there's no such thing as a Peak train. All restrictions are bound to your tickets.

I would suspect that your return has a no break of journey restriction on the outward leg, which means that you can't start short.

 

[alistairlees]

Sorry, trains are not "peak" or "off-peak". There is no special significance to 09.30. It's tickets that are peak / off-peak. Whether they are peak or off-peak depends entirely on the journey you are doing. You'll need to specify the stations and the journey you want to make.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Train leaves Station A at 09:25. It's peak.
Train then arrives/leaves Station B at 09:35, so it's off-peak.
I want to carry on to Station C.

Can I buy an off-peak return ticket from Station A to Station C, and an anytime day single from Station A to Station B?

Thus:
I can use the anytime day single from Station A to Station B.
The use the off-peak return from Station B to Station C.
Which enables me to return to Station A within the 30 days.

I think the answer is yes, but concerned a Train Manager may not like it that the off-peak ticket isn't valid as when it was bought, the train was still peak.

Hope that makes sense.

When the ticket is bought has no significance whatsoever, and as previously mentioned, there is no such thing as a "Peak" or "Off-Peak" train - it is purely a matter of whether you are permitted to take a train by the restrictions applying to your ticket. Therefore it could be permitted to take a certain train with some Super Off-Peak tickets, but with other Off-Peak tickets it might not be permitted.

Assuming the restriction on the Off-Peak ticket from A to C is a blanket "not before 09:30" one like 2V or B1, then you are probably permitted to do what you are proposing. Whether or not the train manager 'likes' it is entirely irrelevant: they are contractually bound to accept it, provided there is no restriction on break of journey (e.g. in the case of some longer distance Off-Peak tickets from Wales or north of Preston to London, or West Midlands Trains only tickets, or 8A TfW set tickets).

If you can give details of the stations involved we can confirm conclusively whether or not it's permitted.

 

[PeterC]

It is pretty obvious that the references to "peak" and "off peak" trains are meant to be read in the context of the restrictions applying to the journey being made. The pedantic jargon laden put downs were totally unecessary.

 

[Wolfie]

It is pretty obvious that the references to "peak" and "off peak" trains are meant to be read in the context of the restrictions applying to the journey being made. The pedantic jargon laden put downs were totally unecessary.

Not so - there are no blanket restrictions based on time as the OP assumed, hence the request for more details.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are also restrictions worded such that this would be questionable. For instance, MKC-north WCML tickets carry the same restriction codes as Euston-north WCML ones despite not carrying the same actual restrictions (i.e. it's split down by where you board). So if you board at Euston with a split, the MKC ticket is not valid in the evening peak by the wording. This may not be what is intended, and may not be enforceable officially, but you can be sure the Euston barrier line will try...

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It is pretty obvious that the references to "peak" and "off peak" trains are meant to be read in the context of the restrictions applying to the journey being made. The pedantic jargon laden put downs were totally unecessary.

I don't think it's pedantic, really, and it wasn't intended as any kind of put-down. It makes an important distinction, since a lot of people get confused by the TOCs' misleading notion of "Peak" or "Off-Peak" trains.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So if you board at Euston with a split, the MKC ticket is not valid in the evening peak by the wording. This may not be what is intended, and may not be enforceable officially, but you can be sure the Euston barrier line will try...

I think the electronic restrictions are clear as to the intention behind the restriction. Restrictions can only be applied either to a train throughout, or to the time when you start your journey (or change trains), or to the time of the train's arrival at its destination.

Restrictions also only apply to the portion of a journey you are making with a particular ticket, so if you had an ticket valid in the evening peak to Milton Keynes (e.g. an Anytime from Euston, or a (Super) Off-Peak from further afield), then the fact that you boarded at Euston is of no significance if you later want to continue from Milton Keynes with an Off-Peak ticket.

The fares regulation which Virgin signed up to in their franchise agreement (well, direct award) prevents them from applying restrictions to the Off-Peak Returns which existed in 2003/4 in the evening, from stations further north than Watford. Thus any attempt to prevent a passenger using a combination of a valid ticket to Milton Keynes, and an Off-Peak Return from thence northwards, would not only be the usual breach of contract but also a more severe breach of the direct award.

The latter is something that could get Virgin into trouble, as it previously did when they attempted to introduce these kinds of restrictions. Obviously we all know that the Euston barrier staff are totally inept at determining valid Off-Peak tickets and combinations, so anyone undertaking such a journey should be prepared to pay an excess, which they can later claim back.

 

[IanD]

Not so - there are no blanket restrictions based on time as the OP assumed, hence the request for more details.

You're assuming you know what the OP assumed.

 

[Wolfie]

You're assuming you know what the OP assumed.

True lol... Perhaps implied would have been better

 

[Western Sunset]

So if I buy a Zone 1-6 Travelcard, for example (not valid until after 0930 M-F), if the 0924 departure from X is running 6 mins late, can I catch it?

 

[AM9]

So if I buy a Zone 1-6 Travelcard, for example (not valid until after 0930 M-F), if the 0924 departure from X is running 6 mins late, can I catch it?

There are plenty of easements on off peak travelcard validity start times.

 

[Western Sunset]

To give a specific example, yesterday the 0921 to Waterloo arrived at Hampton at 0929 and departed 0930. Would a Travelcard (valid after 0930) have been valid on that train? Next scheduled dep was 0951.

 

[njamescouk]

When the ticket is bought has no significance whatsoever, and as previously mentioned, there is no such thing as a "Peak" or "Off-Peak" train - it is purely a matter of whether you are permitted to take a train by the restrictions applying to your ticket. Therefore it could be permitted to take a certain train with some Super Off-Peak tickets, but with other Off-Peak tickets it might not be permitted.

Assuming the restriction on the Off-Peak ticket from A to C is a blanket "not before 09:30" one like 2V or B1, then you are probably permitted to do what you are proposing. Whether or not the train manager 'likes' it is entirely irrelevant: they are contractually bound to accept it, provided there is no restriction on break of journey (e.g. in the case of some longer distance Off-Peak tickets from Wales or north of Preston to London, or West Midlands Trains only tickets, or 8A TfW set tickets).

If you can give details of the stations involved we can confirm conclusively whether or not it's permitted.

rail travel by anything other than an anytime ticket or day rover type ticket looking pretty unappetising. buy a cheap ticket, get a free argument with a railway jobsworth thrown in.

 

[yorkie]

The opening post isn't really answerable as we don't know what ticket it is.

To give a specific example, yesterday the 0921 to Waterloo arrived at Hampton at 0929 and departed 0930. Would a Travelcard (valid after 0930) have been valid on that train? Next scheduled dep was 0951.

Yes, it would be valid for a Travelcard

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46575.aspx

• Off-Peak Day Travelcards are valid for travel from 09:30 Monday to Friday, any time at weekends and on public holidays, and until 04:29 the following morning and are available only as Zones 1-6. Railcard holders may purchase certain Off-Peak Day Travelcards at a discount.

If you had a single or return ticket, it would be different. For example, it wouldn't be valid on a Hampton to Stevenage Off PeakSingle/Return, but you could use any train between Hampton and Waterloo on a Hampton to Peterborough Super Off Peak Single/Return.

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks Yorkie.
Just playing Devil's Advocate for a moment. If the train arrived at 0929, would the Travelcard be valid to board - assuming one minute for a station stop?

 

[crosscity]

I can't say what the OP had in his mind, but I can give my interpretation, by way of an example.

I want to travel on the 942 New St to Cheltenham Spa, and buy a Kings Norton to Cheltenham Spa Off-Peak Return (Code 2V, valid after 930). I also buy an Anytime Single from Kings Norton to New St, and use that on the 917 from Kings Norton to New St, will I be able to use the outward portion of the Cheltenham ticket on the 942?
My answer is 'yes' because break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of a ticket with a 2V restriction.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I can't say what the OP had in his mind, but I can give my interpretation, by way of an example.

I want to travel on the 942 New St to Cheltenham Spa, and buy a Kings Norton to Cheltenham Spa Off-Peak Return (Code 2V, valid after 930). I also buy an Anytime Single from Kings Norton to New St, and use that on the 917 from Kings Norton to New St, will I be able to use the outward portion of the Cheltenham ticket on the 942?
My answer is 'yes' because break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of a ticket with a 2V restriction.

Yes that is a perfectly valid way of using the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks Yorkie.
Just playing Devil's Advocate for a moment. If the train arrived at 0929, would the Travelcard be valid to board - assuming one minute for a station stop?

The rule for a Travelcard (within the Zones) specifically is "travel from 09:30", so yes.

 

[whhistle]

As many others will say, there's no such thing as a Peak train. All restrictions are bound to your tickets.

Sorry, trains are not "peak" or "off-peak". There is no special significance to 09.30. It's tickets that are peak / off-peak.

Apologies for not being clearer... although could you really not understand what I meant?

The problem is describing it as a "journey" isn't really what I mean either, as we're only talking about a small portion of the journey, not the whole journey. I'll re-write it:

--------------------------------------------
Train leaves Station A at 09:25. Tickets are bound by the peak restrictions for journeys from this station, to certain stations (which include Station B and C).
Train then arrives/leaves Station B at 09:35. Tickets to Station C from this station can be purchased with off-peak restrictions.
I want to carry on to Station C and come back another day as cheap as possible.
--------------------------------------------

Although if all the journeys from Station A are subject to peak ticket restrictions before a certain time, I don't know why you couldn't describe them as "peak trains".

Not so - there are no blanket restrictions based on time as the OP assumed.

But in the context of Station B and C... there are blanket restrictions based on time. Not an assumption, it's fact :P

Thank you @ForTheLoveOf for your post, sorry I can't be more specific on the journey but you've given me enough to go on

As @PeterC suggests, pedantry is strong in this thread and I'll struggle to believe some people didn't have enough information to understand, but I suppose the quest to be "right" is more important than getting on and answering the question.

Maybe next time I won't bother asking; Seems more hassle than it's worth these days.

 

[Wolfie]

Apologies for not being clearer... although could you really not understand what I meant?

The problem is describing it as a "journey" isn't really what I mean either, as we're only talking about a small portion of the journey, not the whole journey. I'll re-write it:

--------------------------------------------
Train leaves Station A at 09:25. Tickets are bound by the peak restrictions for journeys from this station, to certain stations (which include Station B and C).
Train then arrives/leaves Station B at 09:35. Tickets to Station C from this station can be purchased with off-peak restrictions.
I want to carry on to Station C and come back another day as cheap as possible.
--------------------------------------------

Although if all the journeys from Station A are subject to peak ticket restrictions before a certain time, I don't know why you couldn't describe them as "peak trains".


But in the context of Station B and C... there are blanket restrictions based on time. Not an assumption, it's fact :P

Thank you @ForTheLoveOf for your post, sorry I can't be more specific on the journey but you've given me enough to go on

As @PeterC suggests, pedantry is strong in this thread and I'll struggle to believe some people didn't have enough information to understand, but I suppose the quest to be "right" is more important than getting on and answering the question.

Maybe next time I won't bother asking; Seems more hassle than it's worth these days.

People weren't trying to hassle you but to get enough info to be sure that they weren't at best misleading you and at worst give you inaccurate advice.

 

[The_Train]

Slightly off-topic but going back to the summer months I definitely saw morning Pendolinos with 'This Is A Peak Time Train' (or something similar) displayed on the information screens.

To be slightly more on topic, I'm no ticketing expert I'm afraid but I'm sure a check on the relevant restriction codes would assist the OP in answering his own questions. I've certainly found these checks particularly good at clearing up some doubts I've had about journeys I've made in the past. I've also found that the staff at my local have been particularly helpful with information regarding breaks of journey but I guess approaching staff can sometimes be hit and miss so might not be the best option.

 

[talldave]

Maybe next time I won't bother asking; Seems more hassle than it's worth these days.

Please don't take the enthusiasm to correct a potential misunderstanding the wrong way. I believe everyone's keen to clarify that the train itself isn't "peak" in order to encourage you with your proposal to use off-peak tickets on it. The message might seem a bit heavyweight simply because multiple contributors edit their replies at the same time.

I also believe that everyone wants to know the precise details to ensure that a glib "you'll be fine" response doesn't lead to a new thread in the Disputes section!

And as a regular "splitter" myself I fully support your approach and urge you to keep asking, as we all benefit from the pooled knowledge. We just need to take turns at sticking our heads above the parapet!

 

[Puffing Devil]

Apologies for not being clearer... although could you really not understand what I meant?

I understand what you meant - without the specific restriction codes and the timetable and station details, it's not possible to help.

Maybe next time I won't bother asking; Seems more hassle than it's worth these days.

Completely up to you.

 

[Deerfold]

Although if all the journeys from Station A are subject to peak ticket restrictions before a certain time, I don't know why you couldn't describe them as "peak trains".

It's very rare for that to be the case. If I'm making a local journey from my local station to somewhere within West Yorkshire, off peak will be from 0930. If I'm going to Carlisle, it'll be 0900 or after. If I'm going to London the off-peak restriction code allows me to catch any train as far as Leeds (except the 0707), though I'm restricted to trains from 0803 from there. So, If I get a train at 0659, it's peak on the first two tickets, but not the third.

 

[robbeech]

Just to throw in some places for anyone who might not be seeing this due to the lack of station names. Whilst the following example includes changes of train the same principle applies. If we assumed a Worksop to Norwich ticket, the Off Peak Return isn't valid to go from Worksop to Retford on the 0907, but a Retford to Norwich off peak ticket is valid on the 0939 which is the train that it connects into.
The difference in price is significant (£93 vs £63), and an Anytime Day single ticket from Worksop to Retford combined with an Off Peak Return from Worksop (starting short at Retford after using the Anytime Day Single from Worksop to Retford) is absolutely permitted. You can then use the return portion all the way back to Worksop at any time that is off peak within the next month.
It is worth noting that in this example there is no price difference between a Worksop to Norwich and a Retford to Norwich ticket of either type so there is no advantage to buying a Retford to Norwich and 2 day singles (or a day return if travelling back the same day) from Worksop to Retford. Other examples may show a difference in cost but it is likely still beneficial to split this way.