Off-Peak: When is it?

[malc-c]

Not sure if this is the correct section to aske this question, so if the mods need to move it please feel free.

I've often wondered what defines Off-Peak travel. On Tuesday I travelled from Stevenage to Peterborough on an off peak ticket, leaving after 10am. However on the way back we caught a train that departed Peterborough just before 3.30pm, arriving back in Stevenage around 4:20pm. Which then made me think if this could have got us into trouble as I believe afternoon peak travel is between 3:30 and 7:15pm. But then I thought that as we alighted a train that departed that station before peak time we would be OK. Could anyone clarify what is correct, as I wouldn't want to get into trouble if my assumptions are wrong. If my assumptions are wrong and I was travelling on a ticket but at the wrong time, what would likely be the outcome?

 

[ainsworth74]

Off-Peak is determined by the restriction applied to the ticket not by the train. There is no real concept of an Off-Peak train (though obviously it is somewhat easier to think about it in those terms). So that means that it is perfectly possible for a passenger to travel on a train using an Off-Peak ticket whilst other passengers on the same train doing other journeys have to use to Anytime fares because for those journeys the Off-Peak fare is not valid.

So there's no hard and fast rule and it is necessary to check for the journey you intend to make and the ticket you plan to use.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Time restrictions vary from ticket to ticket. Each off-peak ticket has a restriction code. Assuming your ticket is this one it has a restriction code of B3, which means it is not valid before 9am, but there are no afternoon peak restrictions (see https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/b3)

 

[malc-c]

Thanks for the replies, I don't have the tickets to see what restriction codes were printed on them. But assuming it was the B3 as linked it states departs between 04:29 and 09:00. So in theory if I got on a train that departed my station at 04:25, with an off peak ticket, I would be perfectly "legal" if the ticket inspector checked the ticket half an hour inside that peak period, as i was within the terms and condition of the ticket restrictions when I alighted.

i didn't know there was no afternoon period....thanks for clarifying that. Google seemed to suggest othrewise

 

[Watershed]

It varies massively. There is no consistent definition across the network.

Off-Peak can mean anything from "no time restrictions at all" (as with most Off-Peak Return fares set by TfW) to "you can't arrive into London before 11:30 or depart between 15:00 and 18:45" (as with most Off-Peak fares set by Avanti).

If you were found to be travelling on an Off-Peak ticket at a time that it's not valid, the penalty would simply be that you have to pay the difference to the cheapest valid fare.

Ironically, on some journeys the Off-Peak Return and Off-Peak Day Return will have different time restrictions. So it might be the case you're told "I'm sorry sir, your Off-Peak Day Return isn't valid. You'll have to pay the difference to the Off-Peak Return "

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It depends. For rail journeys wholly within the Greater Manchester rail area, off peak tickets (generally these will be day tickets) usually can't be used when joining a train scheduled to depart before 9.30 am, Monday to Friday (except bank holidays), or between 4.01pm and 6.29pm, Monday to Friday (again except bank holidays).

This can be a tad awkward if setting off (or returning) just before 4.00 p.m. but then having to change trains en route.

 

[ainsworth74]

But assuming it was the B3 as linked it states departs between 04:29 and 09:00. So in theory if I got on a train that departed my station at 04:25, with an off peak ticket, I would be perfectly "legal" if the ticket inspector checked the ticket half an hour inside that peak period, as i was within the terms and condition of the ticket restrictions when I alighted.

Absolutely. With that wording you departed before the peak period for that journey/ticket began therefore you are perfectly valid.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It varies massively. There is no consistent definition across the network.
Off-Peak can mean anything from "no time restrictions at all" (as with most Off-Peak Return fares set by TfW)

But TfW have put a sneaky "No break of journey" rule on those tickets (restriction 8A) which means they are not as flexible as they should be.
You have to look at all the conditions to get the full picture.

 

[scrapy]

It depends. For rail journeys wholly within the Greater Manchester rail area, off peak tickets (generally these will be day tickets) usually can't be used when joining a train scheduled to depart before 9.30 am, Monday to Friday (except bank holidays), or between 4.01pm and 6.29pm, Monday to Friday (again except bank holidays).

This can be a tad awkward if setting off (or returning) just before 4.00 p.m. but then having to change trains en route.

To make things even more complicated there are several specific operator only exceptions to these.

 

[Llandudno]

To make things even more complicated there are several specific operator only exceptions to the

To make things even more complicated there are several specific operator only exceptions to these.

Indeed, what chance has the average passenger got, and some staff as well!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It depends. For rail journeys wholly within the Greater Manchester rail area, off peak tickets (generally these will be day tickets) usually can't be used when joining a train scheduled to depart before 9.30 am, Monday to Friday (except bank holidays), or between 4.01pm and 6.29pm, Monday to Friday (again except bank holidays).

To make things even more complicated there are several specific operator only exceptions to these.

Be interested to know more about some of these exceptions. (And presumably the operator won't ever be Northern!)

 

[Watershed]

Be interested to know more about some of these exceptions. (And presumably the operator won't ever be Northern!)

Northern is effectively the fare setter within all of the northern PTE areas, so they're not really allowed to set Northern only fares (there are exceptions but they're very rare).

One example of an operator-specific fare without evening restrictions would be a Manchester Stations to Manchester Airport TPE only Off-Peak Day Return. Has restriction code I3, allowing travel anytime from 9am onwards.

 

[Lew202]

Living in Thameslink land, the one that throws me is when ticket restrictions say, as in the case of LS....

Not valid on trains timed to depart:
after 04:29 and before 09.31
London Kings Cross, London St Pancras International, Moorgate or pass through London St Pancras International after 16:29 and before 19:02 regardless of where you join or leave the service.

There was a time when different journey planners seemed to interpret it differently. I don't know if they still do.

 

[Watershed]

Living in Thameslink land, the one that throws me is when ticket restrictions say, as in the case of LS....

Not valid on trains timed to depart:
after 04:29 and before 09.31
London Kings Cross, London St Pancras International, Moorgate or pass through London St Pancras International after 16:29 and before 19:02 regardless of where you join or leave the service.

There was a time when different journey planners seemed to interpret it differently. I don't know if they still do.

It would be almost impossible for them to fully implement that, due the limitations in the time restrictions data. But they can get pretty close.

 

[plugwash]

Ironically, on some journeys the Off-Peak Return and Off-Peak Day Return will have different time restrictions. So it might be the case you're told "I'm sorry sir, your Off-Peak Day Return isn't valid. You'll have to pay the difference to the Off-Peak Return "

I think "some" is an understatement. At least among the fares I've looked at where both are available (admittedly concentrated on the area round manchester) I would say the time restrictions are different more often than not.

 

[jupiter]

I’m minded to think it’s impossible to decide whether an off peak ticket is valid or not if you are a mere mortal.

I‘m looking to do a trip with a freedom of the southwest rover in September. I’m not sure of the route(s) yet. Is there any general guidance it would be sensible to apply (ie don’t leave before 9am or between 4pm and 6pm) that can be applied here? What’s the worst case if you inadvertently get on a “peak” train, pay the excess, or?

 

[trebor79]

Off-Peak is determined by the restriction applied to the ticket not by the train. There is no real concept of an Off-Peak train (though obviously it is somewhat easier to think about it in those terms). So that means that it is perfectly possible for a passenger to travel on a train using an Off-Peak ticket whilst other passengers on the same train doing other journeys have to use to Anytime fares because for those journeys the Off-Peak fare is not valid.

So there's no hard and fast rule and it is necessary to check for the journey you intend to make and the ticket you plan to use.

Twice I've had a guard on an intercity out of Liverpool Street between 4pm and 7pm try to tell me my off peak ticket isn't valid and charge me full fare. Each time I just invited them to check the restriction code printed on the ticket and they go "oh!" when they realise on that particular ticket the peak restriction doesn't apply in the evening.
Some of the booking office staff know. I once excessed my ticket to London before setting out for the day, quizzical look from the clerk and then a knowing smile as she asked me for the three quid or whatever it was and I confirmed the restrictions would be those on the ticket I'd excessed to and not the original...

I’m minded to think it’s impossible to decide whether an off peak ticket is valid or not if you are a mere mortal.

BRfares.com is what I use to check I'm buying the ticket I think I am and check what restrictions and easements apply. All laid out pretty plainly. For example Peterborough to Sleaford there are at least 2 varieties each of "Off peak return", "Off peak day return" and "Day return" at slightly different prices. Some valid via Grantham, some via Spalding, some via either and some specific easements on some of them that allow me to catch the 0833 out of Peterborough even thought that would usually be "peak".

 

[plugwash]

As I understand it, there is no such thing as a "peak train", despite what some rail staff think. Peak restrictions or the absence thereof depend on your ticket. You should therefore look up the particular ticket you intend to use.

For the freedom of the southwest rover NRE states the following

Available after 09:00 (Mondays-Fridays) or when Off-Peak Day Return is valid (whichever is earlier). Additionally valid on the 08:26 Westbury to Penzance service.

Available all day Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays.

As I understand it normally if you travel on a peak train with an off peak ticket you would be expected to pay an excess for the complete ticket (not just one half of a return ticket like with change of route), but I don't know if/how that would apply to travel on a rover,

 

[Watershed]

I’m minded to think it’s impossible to decide whether an off peak ticket is valid or not if you are a mere mortal.

It's certainly not as 'simple' as a blanket rule. But it's certainly a lot easier to find out time restrictions now than it used to be.

For one thing, virtually all tickets now have a link printed on them, which you can look up to find out the time restrictions.

Furthermore, if you're offered a ticket on a given train by a website/booking office etc. then it's valid.

For a Ranger or Rover it's a little bit more complex, as time restrictions do vary widely. But you should be able to find out the time restrictions when buying it, otherwise National Rail Enquiries will give details (as quoted by @plugwash).

What’s the worst case if you inadvertently get on a “peak” train, pay the excess, or?

You need to pay the difference to the cheapest valid fare. Quite how that would be calculated on a rover is another question, but the worst case scenario is having to pay an excess.

 

[scrapy]

Be interested to know more about some of these exceptions. (And presumably the operator won't ever be Northern!)

There's actually fewer than I thought as the Avanti only fares between Stockport and Manchester now have the evening peak restriction. Although TFW only fares within GM area have a 16.00 rather than a 16.01 start to the evening peak to put them inline with TFWs other evening restrictions, not that that matters in the real world as there are no TFW departures from GM stations at 1600.

There were until recently also TPE only off peak return fares between Wigan and Manchester (and Wigan to Preston) available from TVMs with no evening peak despite TPE not having operated the route for a few years. Caused a problem for Northern guards who could hardly tell passengers they should use a TPE service instead.

 

[jfollows]

As I understand it, there is no such thing as a "peak train", despite what some rail staff think. Peak restrictions or the absence thereof depend on your ticket. You should therefore look up the particular ticket you intend to use.

For the freedom of the southwest rover NRE states the following



As I understand it normally if you travel on a peak train with an off peak ticket you would be expected to pay an excess for the complete ticket (not just one half of a return ticket like with change of route), but I don't know if/how that would apply to travel on a rover,

I'm sure you're right, but in your first paragraph you say that there's no such thing as a "peak train" (which is correct) but in your third you say "if you travel on a peak train" ..... I know what you mean but it's very easy to slip into misleading wording, isn't it? And this sort of thing then confuses already poorly trained staff ......

 

[ainsworth74]

I’m minded to think it’s impossible to decide whether an off peak ticket is valid or not if you are a mere mortal.

I think it's less that it's not possible to decide but more that the information is not provided by the industry in an easily accessible format. They are certainly available, to be clear, you can find most of the on NRE by simply typing "nationalrail.co.uk/[relevant restriction code here]" (something which is also printed on the tickets, though I think it's a bit late in the day at that point if you're wanting to make an informed purchase!). For instance here is the restriction text for restriction code 9A (though I seem to recall they broke that functionality for a while not so long ago). But somewhere useful, like looking up tickets? Much trickier.

On NRE you can search for a journey (lets say a return from Crewe to Euston):



Select an off-peak ticket and it will helpfully tell you if you hover over Off-Peak that: "cheaper tickets for travelling on trains which are less busy, for example out of rush hour times" which is sort of correct but doesn't actually tell you when the ticket is truly valid:



If you want that you scroll down to where it says "Tickets" and the little basket type thing is displayed:



Then click on the ticket type which takes you to a page laying out the general terms and conditions for an Off-Peak ticket:




Scroll to the bottom of that page and finally there is a link which you can click to find out the restrictions that apply to the ticket:


Then you finally get the restriction information. And in this case the information is really quite straight forward:



The wording could certainly be clearer but I don't think it's impenetrable to you average passenger. But good luck to them ever finding that information when it's tucked away so deeply into the process! If I've missed something obvious where this info is displayed I'll happily retract my previous criticism!

There is a helpful "Other services you can travel on button" which is helpful and puts ticks and crosses next to trains you can use but it doesn't really clarify what criteria it's using to determine that:



To be sure some restriction codes are complicated (the 9A example I used above is certainly intimidating even if it's fairly simple once you get to grips with it). But I'm not sure that that's the major hurdle. Just getting the information as to what the restriction that applies to your ticket I think is the major battle right now. TOC website, as far as I'm aware, are no better. Plugging in a Darlington to Leeds journey into the TPE website and selecting an Off-Peak return the most information I can seem to get out of their journey planner is:

Off-Peak Return​

Valid on off-peak services by the route and Train operator shown. Return travel any day within 1 month.

Ticket Description:​

Off-Peak fares are cheaper tickets for travelling on trains that are less busy. You may need to travel at specific times of the day, days of the week and sometimes on specific routes or operators.
The times when you may use your Off-Peak ticket will depend on the journey you are making and you will be advised when buying your ticket. The National Rail Journey Planner will automatically work out which tickets are valid for your journey.

I mean I'm already on a journey planner (the TPE one) so why do I have to go and use a different journey planner (one which won't sell me a ticket but would no doubt redirect me back to TPE or perhaps XC to complete my purchase) to find out what other trains my ticket might be valid on? Why can the TPE website not just tell me:

Outward and Return: Not valid on services timed to depart between 04:29 and 08:15

Because that's it! That's the full restriction code (TP for those playing along at home) that applies to a Darlington to Leeds Off-Peak Return! That's really frackin simple and yet it's hidden away like some sort of arcane knowledge.

Yes we don't want to bamboozle passengers anymore than they already are by TOCs adding more and more fares to routes* but good grief is it any wonder they're distrustful when it's made so hard for them to confirm when their tickets might be valid? Understanding most restriction codes, in my view, is not especially challenging. But good luck finding them in the first place in order to try and understand them!

* My 'favourite' example of this at the moment is Middlesbrough to Redcar Central. Until about four or maybe five years ago there were three fares. A single and a return both valid at anytime and a Duo fare offering a discount for two people travelling together off-peak. Very simple and easy to understand. Then Northern added off-peak fares so that meant there were five fares now suddenly. Still though, not too complicated. Then TPE arrived and added TPE Only fares of both the Anytime and Off-Peak varieties for both singles and returns meaning there were now nine different fares before finally Northern added Advance fares to this journey meaning there were now ten different fares available for this eight mile journey lasting ten minutes (this also excludes the 1st class Anytime single and return, the 1st class seven day season, the Any Permitted and TPE Only flexi seasons and the Any Permitted and TPE Only seven day or longer seasons all of which are also available on this ten minute journey). Is it any wonder that passengers complain that fares are too complicated to understand? When in reality most passengers would probably just want to buy a single or a return?

 

[Haywain]

I’m minded to think it’s impossible to decide whether an off peak ticket is valid or not if you are a mere mortal

Millions of mere mortals manage to travel without difficulty every year.

 

[Watershed]

Millions of mere mortals manage to travel without difficulty every year.

An awful lot of those simply travel on the train they selected when booking online, or rely on ticket offices or machines to only sell Off-Peak tickets when they are valid.

But if you want to know when you would be able to travel with an Off-Peak ticket, particularly on flows where there are multiple Off-Peak tickets with different time restrictions, it's a different story.

As @ainsworth74 points out in his well illustrated post, it's far from straightforward to work out the restriction code if you use the sites that the rail industry 'want' you to use (NRE or TOCs' booking engines).

The industry could do a lot more to make things simple and clear. It really wouldn't hurt journey planners to show the restriction code text alongside the usual bumph about the validity of Off-Peak tickets.