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Omicron variant and the measures implemented in response to it

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jfollows

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101 Conservatives voted “no” it appears per Sky and “Labour sources”

EDIT 96 + 2 tellers = 98 seems to be the final actual figure for Conservatives who voted "no"

EDIT Further no voters:
  • 1 Green
  • 2 Independent including Jeremy Corbyn
  • 8 Labour including Diane Abbot & Graham Stringer, the latter indicated he would during debate
  • 10 Lib Dem
  • 6 DUP
 
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brad465

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101 Conservatives voted “no” it appears per Sky and “Labour sources”
And 126 overall, which included Lib Dem rebels.

Over 100 Tory rebels is significant though in potentially undermining Johnson's ability to try further measures in future for now.
 

brad465

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Only 41 MP's voted against this mandatory face mask nonsense! Where's all these 80-ish Tory backbencher rebels who said they would vote against all these restrictions?! 440(or however many) voting in favour of this nonsense. Absolutely unbelievable and disgraceful!
I will guess for now at abstaining, but yes really if they were happy to vote against one there really wouldn't have been much more harm in doing so for the rest.

The vote on mandatory NHS staff vaccinations passed 385-100, so good luck to Government trying to fill all the staff vacating it this spring (unless of course that's what they want for privatisation purposes).
 

philosopher

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Where is your evidence that staff at Moderna, the company to whom you are referencing, are likely to act in the manner that you state above? Your use of the term "plebs" is an insult to all other non-Moderna employed staff.
Agree, they almost certainly will not be cracking champagne bottles open at Moderna. However it is in a vaccine manufacturer’s vested interest to say the Omicron variant is a severe as Delta, even when there is now evidence to the contrary. Such comments fuel suspicion that such companies are trying to profit from the crisis as much as possible.
 

DanNCL

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A full list of which MPs voted for what has been published. 96 Tory MPs voted against Covid "certifications", along with 10 Lib Dems, 8 from Labour, 6 from the DUP, Caroline Lucas from the Green Party and two Independents.

224 Tory MPs, 142 from Labour and the SDLP's Colum Eastwood voted in favour.

Abstentions include Rishi Sunak and Theresa May.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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A full list of which MPs voted for what has been published. 96 Tory MPs voted against Covid "certifications", along with 10 Lib Dems, 8 from Labour, 6 from the DUP, Caroline Lucas from the Green Party and two Independents.

224 Tory MPs, 142 from Labour and the SDLP's Colum Eastwood voted in favour.

Abstentions include Rishi Sunak and Theresa May.
In other words....367 for and 121 against.
 

jfollows

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Abstentions include Rishi Sunak and Theresa May.
I think the list of "no vote recorded" includes agreed pairs, so they may simply just not have been present rather than deliberately abstaining. I don't see how a serving cabinet minister could deliberately abstain.

Sky just observed that the winner of the most recent by-election in Old Bexley & Sidcup (3 December) voted against the government
 
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brad465

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Away from the voting results for a moment, the Guardian have an article reporting how Sunak is apparently concerned about the financial costs of the booster programme, which suggests he won't support it beyond the current round of boosters, even if it has to be kept up for new variants. The reported cost is £5bn a year, and also talking about proposals mentioned upthread to consider using the NI tax hike to help finance it:


Rishi Sunak has issued a stark warning to Department of Health officials over the multibillion-pound cost of regular booster rollouts, the Guardian has learned.

Sources said the chancellor raised the point in several Covid meetings that a mooted three-month booster regime – more frequent than originally anticipated – could begin to impact on future spending.

A Whitehall source from outside the Treasury said Sunak had not opposed the measure but warned prices were likely to rise and that the cost to the exchequer should not be underestimated. They said the additional cost would need to be paid for in either spending cuts or tax rises.

“He made the point, rightly, that people would feel the effects of that spending in NHS and household budgets. These doses do not grow on trees,” the source said.

“Worst case scenario, if a new variant comes along or if Omicron doesn’t burn out, if we have to do this for years to come, that’s billions in costs that has not been foreseen which has to be paid for.”

The increase in national insurance, earmarked for NHS waiting lists but eventually aimed to help tackle the increased costs of social care, is expected to bring in £12bn a year which the Treasury could raid for additional cash for jabs.

This month, the government has signed contracts to buy 114m additional Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna doses for 2022 and 2023. Those are in addition to the 35m additional doses of Pfizer/BioNTech that were ordered in August for delivery in the second half of next year.

Sunak is said to have raised the point most recently during Wednesday’s meeting about “plan B” measures that more regular booster doses were not built into current spending plans. Additional boosters, should they be required every three to six months, could cost an additional £5bn a year.

The UK does not disclose what it has paid for vaccines, citing commercial confidentiality. Reports have suggested a significant additional cost for the doses, after Pfizer raised prices because of increased demand.

In August, the Financial Times reported Pfizer increased the price of its Covid-19 vaccine by more than a quarter and Moderna by more than a tenth in the latest EU supply contracts.

A Treasury source said: “We are continuing to do whatever it takes to support our fight against Covid, including providing new funding to roll out our booster campaign as quickly as possible to protect people from Omicron. We will also ensure that taxpayers’ money is spent responsibly.”

Sunak is also facing the possibility of having to revive Covid support measures for businesses, which have not been reintroduced under plan B measures because firms are not required to close or enforce social distancing measures that can limit capacity.

Powerful business groups such as the CBI have not made public demands for further support – though footfall numbers have begun to drop and leisure and hospitality are likely to feel the effects of public caution.

The research group Springboard found footfall at UK high streets fell by 2.7% in the week to last Saturday. They had been expecting a Christmas shopping surge on Saturday but that did not materialise, suggesting that concerns over Omicron kept people away.

Demands from business groups, as well as MPs, are likely to increase if Boris Johnson needs to impose further restrictions – even if they do not include business closures.

Lobby groups are likely to argue that stricter social distancing measures or curfews would have a significant financial effect that would need to be compensated.

Sunak’s department was forced to defend itself over the weekend after it emerged that Treasury staff held celebratory drinks after the November budget, in contravention of lockdown rules in England.

A spokesperson said it was a “small number” of staff who celebrated around their desk and Sunak was not aware of the event.
 

jfollows

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Rishi is playing games because the cost to the exchequer in not having Covid injections will be much greater than their cost in terms of lost tax revenues etc. He's playing games about hypothetical pots of money and bean counting. Utterly stupid and disreputable.
 

takno

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Rishi is playing games because the cost to the exchequer in not having Covid injections will be much greater than their cost in terms of lost tax revenues etc. He's playing games about hypothetical pots of money and bean counting. Utterly stupid and disreputable.
In what sense is having endless booster injections every time somebody invents a bit of a crisis going to cost less than, well, not bothering?
 

jfollows

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Also discussed today - if you arrive from South Africa (or 10 other countries) after 4am tomorrow you don't have to quarantine but if you're already paying to be isolated in a grotty Gatwick hotel you can't leave until the legislation gets changed (not done today, it looks as if some positive action needs to be taken to repeal the existing legislation and just saying that it's pointless isn't enough) or until your 10 day quarantine period expires.

Hypothetically, of course, if I were cooped up with a view of a concrete multi-storey car park and decided to make a break for it, firstly would or could anyone stop me with any legal force, other than the police? And, secondly, assuming not then would I be fined for breaking the rules in due course? It all sounds a bit of a mess.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Rishi is playing games because the cost to the exchequer in not having Covid injections will be much greater than their cost in terms of lost tax revenues etc. He's playing games about hypothetical pots of money and bean counting. Utterly stupid and disreputable.
He needs to realise that his Cabinet post is not that of a "protected status" and that he could be replaced at any time from the position he currently holds.
 

4-SUB 4732

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Suspect that a leadership challenge would follow hot on the heels if he was removed
And especially as he’s rightly going to question whether the cost of vaccinating as people get more able to fight it and is it gets less deadly, is a cost to pay.
 

bramling

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He needs to realise that his Cabinet post is not that of a "protected status" and that he could be replaced at any time from the position he currently holds.

In theory, yes. In practice such a move would almost certainly be followed by a tsunami of signed letters.

Unless something can be pulled out of the hat pretty quickly, Johnson is finished. With it being a certainty that he won’t be leading into the next election, it’s a case of when it happens.

Sunak has been conspicuous by his silence over the last couple of weeks.
 

MikeWM

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I think the list of "no vote recorded" includes agreed pairs, so they may simply just not have been present rather than deliberately abstaining. I don't see how a serving cabinet minister could deliberately abstain.

That's true, but it tends to apply when there is someone to pair with who would be voting the opposite way. As Labour voted with the Government, its rather less clear who the pair would be.

You're right about Sunak though, so there must be at least one more 'rebel' that would have voted against but didn't.

About 100 Tory rebels is very impressive, though. Brexit apart, that must be one of the biggest government rebellions since the Iraq votes.
 

jfollows

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In what sense is having endless booster injections every time somebody invents a bit of a crisis going to cost less than, well, not bothering?
No, the next stage in the cunning plan will be to charge us £10 each for a vaccination, with a special reward for NHS staff required to have one being allowed to have it for nothing.

That's true, but it tends to apply when there is someone to pair with who would be voting the opposite way. As Labour voted with the Government, its rather less clear who the pair would be.
There were 48 Labour MPs with "no vote recorded" against their names in this division, so I'm guessing that Sunak was paired with one of them.

Unless something can be pulled out of the hat pretty quickly, Johnson is finished. With it being a certainty that he won’t be leading into the next election, it’s a case of when it happens.
Possibly sooner rather than later if Liberal Democrats win North Shropshire on Thursday, I tend to think they won't but it will be close but that's only "gut feeling" and it's certainly not impossible.

EDIT Daily Mirror reported later in the week that Rishi Sunak is on a four-day official trip to California (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/rishi-sunak-blasted-trip-california-25710006).
Rishi Sunak was tonight accused of going "missing in action" after it emerged he was in California rather than at his Treasury desk planning how to help struggling businesses.

Sources told the Mirror that the Chancellor was on a four-day official trip leaving his team back home scrabbling to work out a package of support.


Unions called on Mr Sunak to announce immediate measures to help workers and firms in the hardest hit hospitality, leisure and arts sectors.

Venues including pubs, restaurants and theatres are facing a crippling festive season with mass-cancellations after health chiefs warned the public to cut their social contacts.

Mr Sunak, who is understood to own a holiday home in Santa Monica, regularly holidays in the West Coast where the family are believed to have friends.
 
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MikeWM

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There were 48 Labour MPs with "no vote recorded" against their names in this division, so I'm guessing that Sunak was paired with one of them.

As I understand it, pairing is usually done with a nod from the whips though. If Labour were whipped (presumably they were?) then their whips wouldn't have approved a pair that went against their whip!

Though Iits fairly academic, because unless a massive resignation is about to happen, clearly Sunak had permission to abstain, whether paired or not.
 

jfollows

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Sky now reporting that the number of Conservatives voting "no" on the most significant vote was undercounted by three. To make it 101 in total if so.

As I understand it, pairing is usually done with a nod from the whips though. If Labour were whipped (presumably they were?) then their whips wouldn't have approved a pair that went against their whip!

Though Iits fairly academic, because unless a massive resignation is about to happen, clearly Sunak had permission to abstain, whether paired or not.
Yes, imagine if he'd asked Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn if they'd agree to pair with him?

Anyway, all a bit academic I agree.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Possibly sooner rather than later if Liberal Democrats win North Shropshire on Thursday, I tend to think they won't but it will be close but that's only "gut feeling" and it's certainly not impossible.
Will only get rid of them if opposition parties co-operate and they won't so the status quo never changes
 

jfollows

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Will only get rid of them if opposition parties co-operate and they won't so the status quo never changes
I'm not so sure.
I mean, I now live in the constituency where Martin Bell was MP for one term, and this certainly required all the opposition parties to cooperate and not stand themselves.
But I just think that the electorate is more fickle/clever/cunning now, and if enough "Labour" voters instead vote Liberal Democrat knowing that this is the only way to defeat the Conservatives, it's possible, and in a way that probably wasn't the case with Martin Bell.
However a formal stitch-up by opposition parties would obviously make a Conservative defeat more likely.
 

takno

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No, the next stage in the cunning plan will be to charge us £10 each for a vaccination, with a special reward for NHS staff required to have one being allowed to have it for nothing.
Sounds like a bad deal when the quoted costs are more like 25-30 quid a pop
 

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My mental health has really not been in a great place since all of this ordeal with Omicron kicked off a week or two ago. To the point that I nearly had a complete breakdown at work today, and am now, with the advice of work, looking to see Occupational Health to discuss my mental health situation. I won't elaborate exactly what my mind has been going through recently, but I will say it's been very dark at times.
Sorry to hear that; if you (or anyone else in a similar position) feel you may benefit from the support of like minded forum members, do get in touch.
On another note, I've just booked my booster vaccination. As much as my nearest vaccination centre at Chicksands recently re-opened, as my Mum had her booster there 10 days ago, it wasn't available for me to select, so I'm heading to nearby Letchworth for it. Though my appointment won't be until 6th January, so I won't be meeting Boris' target of having it done before the end of the month (the centre in Letchworth only had limited appointments tomorrow and Wednesday, otherwise no further appointments available until January; as I'm working both days, no chance I can attend either).
It may be worth re-visiting this soon to see if more slots have opened. I had initially got a booster for January as December was unavailable but then I looked again and was able to re-book it for this week. The opening hours have been extended at my local mass vaccination centre (at Tesco which many people will recognise as being on the approach to York from the South/West).
Also discussed today - if you arrive from South Africa (or 10 other countries) after 4am tomorrow you don't have to quarantine but if you're already paying to be isolated in a grotty Gatwick hotel you can't leave until the legislation gets changed (not done today, it looks as if some positive action needs to be taken to repeal the existing legislation and just saying that it's pointless isn't enough) or until your 10 day quarantine period expires.

Hypothetically, of course, if I were cooped up with a view of a concrete multi-storey car park and decided to make a break for it, firstly would or could anyone stop me with any legal force, other than the police? And, secondly, assuming not then would I be fined for breaking the rules in due course? It all sounds a bit of a mess.
None of this makes any sense whatsoever. In fact it would be nice if someone could try it, to test the legality of it.

Things like this are not about the virus; it's about control and being seen to be doing 'something'.
 

21C101

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Am I right that all those not meeting the vaccine requirements (2 at the moment, 3 at some unspecified date) have to do is to take a lateral flow test.

Isn't that basically the equivalent of putting an honesty box at a unstaffed station?
 

brad465

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Louie French is the Tory MP elected to Old Bexley and Sidcup 2 weeks ago. One of his first acts as an MP was to vote against his party's government on vaccine passports, which made me laugh.
 

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Towers

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And now they have added this too:




Indeed, The Guardian reports that 19 of their number were "authorised" to abstain (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...back-tougher-rules-face-masks-england-omicron):
All of this being largely a meaningless blur to us pleb underclasses, of course! Don't want the average person in the street actually understanding what they all get up to!
 
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