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Availability of on-board catering facilities

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stj

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IT use in the workplace has moved years over the last few months and you don't need to travel.

I can't see work related rail travel ever going back to what it was. Large Offices don't need to be in city centres, the staff required can stay at home and work.

This can also create jobs in areas not close to a city.
 
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peteb

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A read through the International Transport section of these forums suggests on board food offerings are returning/have returned on the continent, at least in some countries.

But I suppose there's always been a much higher demand for catering on the lengthy journeys across Germany, Switzerland, Austria etc.
 

Howardh

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We have the double issue of station facilities being closed with the exception of the huge ones like Euston/Piccadilly, and if there's no on-board facilities then the pax is stumped unless they have brought their own food and drink. Something has to give, either get the food back onto the trains or open up the stations fully. It's hard to convince the likes of myself to take a trip to the Lakes or North Wales on the train if the only option is to take my food and drink with me in addition to the brolly, coat etc!

C'mon railways, you want pax back, so open up for them.
 

Purple Orange

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Really ?

Despite the numbers that will be unemployed, or working from home ?

It is a case of when, not if.
  1. We will see another boom in the economy, and even if people are working from home more, it won’t be 100%, or even 50%. C19 will have a short term impact, but we will have a vaccine, which is likely the point that people will truly start to feel comfortable with getting back to normality.
  2. Working from home is only an option to the people who can wfh, which is not the majority of the workforce. Plus, those people who can wfh were already doing that 1 day per week. It will likely be no more than 2 days per week going forward.
  3. When the next cycle of economic growth takes place, we may see individuals commuting less, but volumes increase due to more people overall needing to access cities.
  4. Increased car usage is not feasible. Aside from the obvious unsustainable ecological damage, our towns and cities are not capable of taking the additional volumes.

IT use in the workplace has moved years over the last few months and you don't need to travel.

I can't see work related rail travel ever going back to what it was. Large Offices don't need to be in city centres, the staff required can stay at home and work.

This can also create jobs in areas not close to a city.

I see the trend to be slightly different. London, historically over the decades, has been the only city with a significant concentration of jobs in the centre. Other cities have had a more even spread of offices around the region, both in the centre and in industrial estates & out of town business parks.

In some of these cities, there has been in recent years the trend of the out of town businesses to start relocating to the centre, because they then have better access to a bigger labour market. Businesses will always need a base of some kind, but the likelihood will be that the out of town offices will continue to relocate to city centres, albeit in smaller offices perhaps. They might merge several offices in to one as well.

The overall effect is a reduction in total office space usage, but an increase in city centre office usage where more people can access their employers more readily, but on fewer days per week than before. As such, more people might be using the train, but as individuals they might not be using it 4 or 5 times per week, but rather 2, 3 or 4 times per week.

One example might be, a West Midlands based company might relocate their office to something smaller, due to fewer people commuting. Will they:
  1. Locate on a business park by the M6 or M40.
  2. Locate in Birmingham city centre
Birmingham city centre has access to far more people and indeed people such as myself, who work in Manchester, may look at the Birmingham job as feasible if it is only 2 days per week in Birmingham rather than commuting there for most of the working week.
 
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FQTV

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We have the double issue of station facilities being closed with the exception of the huge ones like Euston/Piccadilly, and if there's no on-board facilities then the pax is stumped unless they have brought their own food and drink. Something has to give, either get the food back onto the trains or open up the stations fully. It's hard to convince the likes of myself to take a trip to the Lakes or North Wales on the train if the only option is to take my food and drink with me in addition to the brolly, coat etc!

C'mon railways, you want pax back, so open up for them.

The following was posted on the GWR Coffee Shop forum at the end of June, citing a staff update regarding GWR Pullman Dining, by user 'Industry Insider':

"The Pullman is one of our best kept secrets, and a unique selling point for GWR. As we look ahead to the future of our business, we’ll be focusing more on the leisure and experiences market, so the Pullman will play a big part in our customer offering. Implications around the pandemic are presenting obvious problems with running the service as we knew it before, but we are exploring options, and it’s on our list of things to bring back safely as soon as we can."

My experience of London to Plymouth GWR services last month was that they were trying hard to offer at least some kind of service, with staff in both portions of ten car units. In First, on the services that I used, it was being done rather more professionally than on the LNER services that I used, too.
 

Robertj21a

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It is a case of when, not if.
  1. We will see another boom in the economy, and even if people are working from home more, it won’t be 100%, or even 50%. C19 will have a short term impact, but we will have a vaccine, which is likely the point that people will truly start to feel comfortable with getting back to normality.
  2. Working from home is only an option to the people who can wfh, which is not the majority of the workforce. Plus, those people who can wfh were already doing that 1 day per week. It will likely be no more than 2 days per week going forward.
  3. When the next cycle of economic growth takes place, we may see individuals commuting less, but volumes increase due to more people overall needing to access cities.
  4. Increased car usage is not feasible. Aside from the obvious unsustainable ecological damage, our towns and cities are not capable of taking the additional volumes.

It's always good to read wildly different views but I don't really recognise much of what you're suggesting.
We'll have to wait and see....
 

route101

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IT use in the workplace has moved years over the last few months and you don't need to travel.

I can't see work related rail travel ever going back to what it was. Large Offices don't need to be in city centres, the staff required can stay at home and work.

This can also create jobs in areas not close to a city.

I have seen some buisness travel last few weeks. Not sure what sector, i would imagine Construction would still require travel to sites.
 

class 9

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We can’t base decisions on the last 6 months, but we will see how much public demand there is for certain aspects of the service going forward. We will see a return to pre-covid passenger volumes, but certain aspects of the service demand could easily change.

Plus inter city catering on some routes will drastically change in 10 years time. How will London-Birmingham catering differ on a 45 min journey vs current times? What about Brum-Manc/Leeds, which will be a 40 min train compared to current XC services that are 3-4 hours or more?
Brum-Manc/Leeds 3-4 hours currently??? 1h28 and 1h58 are the current times.
 

Andy Pacer

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I believe EMR are doing the breakfast service in 1st class now.

I'm hoping things return more generally in 1st as I would like to so my next 1st class ALR in the spring.
 

Purple Orange

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Brum-Manc/Leeds 3-4 hours currently??? 1h28 and 1h58 are the current times.

I’m refering to the end to end XC services (I.e. Manc-South West or North East to the South), not specifically Manc/Leeds-Brum. My point is that under HS2, the service between Mamc/Leeds & Brum will be just that. It won’t continue on to Bristol, Reading, Newcastle or Scotland. Therefore, on a 40 min journey, what catering is actually needed? I’d say none.

On a 3 hour+ XC service I can see the merit of catering provision, but less so if XC only operated between Brum, Leeds & Manc and definitely not on HS2.
 

Fast Track

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Indeeed.

Nostalgia tripping about dining cars and catering services that operated at heavy losses won't attract people back.

Convenience / speed of journey and price is more important - hence why HS2's construction officially started today. Speed improvements and electrification are more worthwhile.

I just don’t understand this desire on some fronts for a race to the bottom in terms of quality of service and customer experience on trains.

A better customer experience is hugely important for any business. If you improve the experience for the customer they come back.

Look at how other sectors have upped their game in recent years, refurbished pubs now offering decent food and gastro pubs, the retail sector experiences ie the vision of Apple and their stores with others copying the format.

Many High streets are full of coffee shops with people paying premium prices for a cup of coffee because they receive a quality product insurroundings.

So train travel - lets devalue the experience and make people suffer a journey to Plymouth or Norwich without offering any decent food or drink. Now that’s a memorable customer experience that will stay in the mind and drive people onto the A303 or the M11 rather than the train.
 

Andy Pacer

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I just don’t understand this desire on some fronts for a race to the bottom in terms of quality of service and customer experience on trains.

A better customer experience is hugely important for any business. If you improve the experience for the customer they come back.

Look at how other sectors have upped their game in recent years, refurbished pubs now offering decent food and gastro pubs, the retail sector experiences ie the vision of Apple and their stores with others copying the format.

Many High streets are full of coffee shops with people paying premium prices for a cup of coffee because they receive a quality product insurroundings.

So train travel - lets devalue the experience and make people suffer a journey to Plymouth or Norwich without offering any decent food or drink. Now that’s a memorable customer experience that will stay in the mind and drive people onto the A303 or the M11 rather than the train.
Agreed. Its all very well people on here saying they dont use it (or 'people' do not use it) but I think it's the choice factor that's important. Sometimes if you're on a longish train journey you would just fancy a hot drink even if just to pass the time.
Nice to have the choice.
 

Purple Orange

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Agreed. Its all very well people on here saying they dont use it (or 'people' do not use it) but I think it's the choice factor that's important. Sometimes if you're on a longish train journey you would just fancy a hot drink even if just to pass the time.
Nice to have the choice.

This. How long is a long journey? I can’t see how meals served in 1st class will be wanted or feasible on a HS2 train running on the core network. Coffee vending machines and snacks (maybe even alcoholic beverages) could be a possibility.
 

Andy Pacer

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This. How long is a long journey? I can’t see how meals served in 1st class will be wanted or feasible on a HS2 train running on the core network. Coffee vending machines and snacks (maybe even alcoholic beverages) could be a possibility.
I didnt specifically mention HS2.
 

dk1

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This. How long is a long journey? I can’t see how meals served in 1st class will be wanted or feasible on a HS2 train running on the core network. Coffee vending machines and snacks (maybe even alcoholic beverages) could be a possibility.
Vending machines?? Hell no. Human beings & proper coffee. Well worth paying extra for.
 

Purple Orange

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I didnt specifically mention HS2.
No, but that is where it is heading and the topic is about the future of on-board catering. There are only a handful of ToCs that operate with an onboard shop and the other long distance operators just have a trolley. Apart from GWR, the main market for LNER, Avanti and EMR will transfer to HS2 with journey times no more than just over 1 hour for the majority of trains. I can’t see what significant passenger demand there will be for a coffee, sandwich or a full meal that you can either buy before you board or wait an hour to have something better at your destination.

Plus the 400m services will be formed of two train units, meaning it would require two shops staffed and two sets of 1st class catering facilities for the 60-70 min journey. It just doesn’t sound feasible to me.


Vending machines?? Hell no. Human beings & proper coffee. Well worth paying extra for.
I don’t think vending machines are ideal, but the coffee you get served on trains these days is awful compared to the what you can buy at the station, and also the Costa vending machines would be a better option than what is currently served up.
 

Andy Pacer

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I still think people should have the choice and on a long journey (not HS2) people may want it.

Just my opinion.
 

Del1977

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Even before coronavirus, I'd been caught out a few times by non-existent GWR trolleys on Paddington to South Wales services. It only has to happen a few times before the message sinks in to buy before you board the train.

The other thing which is weighing down on leisure travel, is the absence of cheap, advance purchase tickets at the moment. I've been checking out GWR's website every few days for a couple of weeks to find something reasonable, but the cheapest I've found is within £1-£2 of the off-peak return, which at least has flexibility...

I'm actually quite glad that there wasn't anything advance purchase available now, as my parents have been placed in a local lockdown, so I'd have had to cancel my trip anyway...
 

GB71

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I normally lurk and rarely join the debates - but this one is really interesting and I need to distinguish my own personal preferences from what I think are realities of the situation - I also need to apologise for being an accountant and Finance Director for a medium sized company.

Personally I loved the days of silver service dining on InterCity/GNER etc - it was great and generally good quality but at a price; but times have moved on from the 1990's - for a start back then how many business people were online the whole time - now trains are absolutely seen as a moving office where I can do as much as in the office - in the 90's I could and might as well use the time to eat etc.

Now whilst I can't speak for everyone I can speak for what we've done as a medium sized company with around 1500 UK employees I can tell you that we expect, even once pandemic is over that underlying travel costs will be no more than 60% what they were pre-COVID - we did a lot of analysis on pre-COVID travel and believe that at least a third of this was inefficient and what I might call "habit" travel - myself included and I will personally half my trips down to London in any event. Most finance Directors (like myself) will have pocketed these savings and with technology etc I don't ever see business travel returning to anything like pre-COVID travel levels - they will go up but my guess would be somewhere around the 2/3 mark.

So given that regretably, I think that catering downgrading will be inevitable - for longer journeys I can see things like sandwiches, hot drinks etc. I can see the likes of TPE style operators abandoning it altogether.

We are, however, all speculating on preferences and personal experiences.
 

Andy Pacer

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I normally lurk and rarely join the debates - but this one is really interesting and I need to distinguish my own personal preferences from what I think are realities of the situation - I also need to apologise for being an accountant and Finance Director for a medium sized company.

Personally I loved the days of silver service dining on InterCity/GNER etc - it was great and generally good quality but at a price; but times have moved on from the 1990's - for a start back then how many business people were online the whole time - now trains are absolutely seen as a moving office where I can do as much as in the office - in the 90's I could and might as well use the time to eat etc.

Now whilst I can't speak for everyone I can speak for what we've done as a medium sized company with around 1500 UK employees I can tell you that we expect, even once pandemic is over that underlying travel costs will be no more than 60% what they were pre-COVID - we did a lot of analysis on pre-COVID travel and believe that at least a third of this was inefficient and what I might call "habit" travel - myself included and I will personally half my trips down to London in any event. Most finance Directors (like myself) will have pocketed these savings and with technology etc I don't ever see business travel returning to anything like pre-COVID travel levels - they will go up but my guess would be somewhere around the 2/3 mark.

So given that regretably, I think that catering downgrading will be inevitable - for longer journeys I can see things like sandwiches, hot drinks etc. I can see the likes of TPE style operators abandoning it altogether.

We are, however, all speculating on preferences and personal experiences.
Interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing. I agree about the potential downgrade, it may of course depend on the post Covid demand for such journeys and facilities.
 

FQTV

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I normally lurk and rarely join the debates - but this one is really interesting and I need to distinguish my own personal preferences from what I think are realities of the situation - I also need to apologise for being an accountant and Finance Director for a medium sized company.

Personally I loved the days of silver service dining on InterCity/GNER etc - it was great and generally good quality but at a price; but times have moved on from the 1990's - for a start back then how many business people were online the whole time - now trains are absolutely seen as a moving office where I can do as much as in the office - in the 90's I could and might as well use the time to eat etc.

Now whilst I can't speak for everyone I can speak for what we've done as a medium sized company with around 1500 UK employees I can tell you that we expect, even once pandemic is over that underlying travel costs will be no more than 60% what they were pre-COVID - we did a lot of analysis on pre-COVID travel and believe that at least a third of this was inefficient and what I might call "habit" travel - myself included and I will personally half my trips down to London in any event. Most finance Directors (like myself) will have pocketed these savings and with technology etc I don't ever see business travel returning to anything like pre-COVID travel levels - they will go up but my guess would be somewhere around the 2/3 mark.

So given that regretably, I think that catering downgrading will be inevitable - for longer journeys I can see things like sandwiches, hot drinks etc. I can see the likes of TPE style operators abandoning it altogether.

We are, however, all speculating on preferences and personal experiences.

Your position is certainly not unusual in terms of how businesses are currently assessing future travel requirements, and you're absolutely right that in more recent times, many (especially First Class long distance) carriages have become extensions of the office. That's actually one of the reasons that I particularly dislike complimentary at-seat dining, and the fact that it tends to be dumped on the passenger in parsimonious portions at times to suit the operator and/or staff, rather than the time of day or passenger preferences.

However, and in future, particularly if you take into account the reported quote above from GWR, the operators may need to review their offer just as much as businesses are reviewing their requirements.

This could, for the likes of GWR, LNER, Avanti etc., especially, mean that they have no choice but to look to the leisure market and assess what rail can offer that other modes can't. Whether that's speed, flexibility or, in this case, on board experience, there's a thought that on board catering could actually be both a marketing and a revenue opportunity. The railway is very much behind the curve in this regard; it pays little to no attention to the additional revenue opportunities available to it, and these opportunities aren't 'punts'; they're ones that other travel operators have been benefitting from for years. Indeed, it's possible that some of those companies may have taken the ideas from ones that BR itself was involved in for years.....
 

GB71

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Your position is certainly not unusual in terms of how businesses are currently assessing future travel requirements, and you're absolutely right that in more recent times, many (especially First Class long distance) carriages have become extensions of the office. That's actually one of the reasons that I particularly dislike complimentary at-seat dining, and the fact that it tends to be dumped on the passenger in parsimonious portions at times to suit the operator and/or staff, rather than the time of day or passenger preferences.

However, and in future, particularly if you take into account the reported quote above from GWR, the operators may need to review their offer just as much as businesses are reviewing their requirements.

This could, for the likes of GWR, LNER, Avanti etc., especially, mean that they have no choice but to look to the leisure market and assess what rail can offer that other modes can't. Whether that's speed, flexibility or, in this case, on board experience, there's a thought that on board catering could actually be both a marketing and a revenue opportunity. The railway is very much behind the curve in this regard; it pays little to no attention to the additional revenue opportunities available to it, and these opportunities aren't 'punts'; they're ones that other travel operators have been benefitting from for years. Indeed, it's possible that some of those companies may have taken the ideas from ones that BR itself was involved in for years.....

I would absolutely love to think you are right; but that is going to take a whole different type of thinking. As I said in my quote I think the silver service dining of InterCity and GNER (I know there were others but those were the ones I have sampled) was superb and a great way to travel but at the moment the leisure market, I don't think is being viewed in that way.

The rot in my opinion set in with Branson's vision of an airline on rails - and as you say the complimentary at-seat dining has some highlights but is mainly pretty poor. The other issue I really have had pre-COVID and one or two contributors have alluded to it, is consistency of service - I honestly can't count how many times I've got on LNER to be told that due to staff shortages there will be only cold food or on their so-called premium dinner services out of London by the time they get two-thirds of the way through they're out of hot food (I recall that twice in January).

So in short I would love to think you could be right but I think the shift in mentality may be just too much.
 

Andy Pacer

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I would absolutely love to think you are right; but that is going to take a whole different type of thinking. As I said in my quote I think the silver service dining of InterCity and GNER (I know there were others but those were the ones I have sampled) was superb and a great way to travel but at the moment the leisure market, I don't think is being viewed in that way.

The rot in my opinion set in with Branson's vision of an airline on rails - and as you say the complimentary at-seat dining has some highlights but is mainly pretty poor. The other issue I really have had pre-COVID and one or two contributors have alluded to it, is consistency of service - I honestly can't count how many times I've got on LNER to be told that due to staff shortages there will be only cold food or on their so-called premium dinner services out of London by the time they get two-thirds of the way through they're out of hot food (I recall that twice in January).

So in short I would love to think you could be right but I think the shift in mentality may be just too much.

Yes, I think they definitely need to deliver what they are offering for there to be any future in it. They need to be meeting the customer's expectations.
 

FQTV

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I would absolutely love to think you are right; but that is going to take a whole different type of thinking. As I said in my quote I think the silver service dining of InterCity and GNER (I know there were others but those were the ones I have sampled) was superb and a great way to travel but at the moment the leisure market, I don't think is being viewed in that way.

The rot in my opinion set in with Branson's vision of an airline on rails - and as you say the complimentary at-seat dining has some highlights but is mainly pretty poor. The other issue I really have had pre-COVID and one or two contributors have alluded to it, is consistency of service - I honestly can't count how many times I've got on LNER to be told that due to staff shortages there will be only cold food or on their so-called premium dinner services out of London by the time they get two-thirds of the way through they're out of hot food (I recall that twice in January).

So in short I would love to think you could be right but I think the shift in mentality may be just too much.

You're right, the thinking would have to change, but that seems (potentially) to be what could be happening based on the GWR quote in Post 39 above. Like you, I'm mindful that it would be a huge change of mindset, but huge changes in all areas of operations could be critical and maybe that's one Train Operating Company that's thinking about it.
 
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