One/two man operation of diesels and electrics

[saddlestoneman]

Hello All

I was wondering if the new diesels and electrics introduced by BR in the 1950s and 60 would have been manned by a Driver and a 'Fireman'. I was thinking particularly of the new shunters where the second man would have been very useful for the frequent coupling/uncoupling needed, unless this was provided by a third man in the shunting yard or station.

best regards ... Stef

 

[StephenHunter]

The fireman was called a secondman. They would also look after the new Electric Train Heating, I believe.

 

[Irascible]

I'd be interrested if shunters ( the job ) had a different official title - that would not be the driver's job most of the time though. Requirements for secondmen was a topic for fights with the unions.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

In my local yards, which had two '350' shunters on duty, 7 days a week (1970's) it seemed to me that they were usually double manned, in addition to the shunter (man on the ground) who did the uncoupling (of wagons) and point changing.

 

[6Gman]

The fireman was called a secondman. They would also look after the new Electric Train Heating, I believe.

Small correction. It was the steam heating boiler that required a secondman; the switch to electric train heating allowed single-manning.

 

[Snow1964]

I think there were some local agreements where the second person was also a shunter, although busy places had a separate shunter.

The unions tended to be more open to local variation then, reality was if secondman had to keep climbing on and off the shunting loco would wave to driver to move it between coupling moves, no different to when they did pick up freight moves. Crews tended to make their life easiper whatever strict segregation the unions had agreed on paper.

The secondman (excuse the sexist parlance, not acceptable now), had duties of watching for signals, which didn't apply in small yards

 

[StephenHunter]

The secondman (excuse the sexist parlance, not acceptable now), had duties of watching for signals, which didn't apply in small yards

I don't believe there were many secondwomen.

 

[Iskra]

Can anyone answer when the last routine secondmen were removed at all please?

(I thought I remembered them into the 90’s/early 00’s but they could just have been route learning or something)

 

[Cymroglan]

Am I right in thinking that when the HSTs were introduced there were two qualified drivers in the cab, as part of an agreement with ASLEF and/or NUR?

 

[The Lad]

For over 100 mph

 

[Irascible]

Am I right in thinking that when the HSTs were introduced there were two qualified drivers in the cab, as part of an agreement with ASLEF and/or NUR?

Yes, I remember a fight to get the south-west HSTs to single driver op - they were 110mph max ( still are, I guess! ) west of Reading.

 

[6Gman]

Can anyone answer when the last routine secondmen were removed at all please?

(I thought I remembered them into the 90’s/early 00’s but they could just have been route learning or something)

I believe they were renamed to Driver's Assistant at one point?

I was certainly still issuing diagrams for them when I finished in c.1998.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Can anyone answer when the last routine secondmen were removed at all please?

(I thought I remembered them into the 90’s/early 00’s but they could just have been route learning or something)

I noticed the class 313 scrap trips, from Hove/Lovers Walk to Eastleigh, had 2 in the cab - but I don't know in what capacity the accompanying person was there for.
My photos are in "313 withdrawal / scrapping" thread, back in June and July.

 

[The Crab]

The fireman was called a secondman. They would also look after the new Electric Train Heating, I believe.

I think that the Second man was to look after the steam heating boiler rather than ETH (amongst other duties).

 

[Ashley Hill]

IIRC the grade of secondman finally was abolished in the 1988 traincrew concept.

 

[75A]

I don't believe there were many secondwomen.

We had 1 @Brighton in the early 80's, sorry to say I can't remember her name, there was one older Top Link driver who made a fuss every time she was put with him..

Small correction. It was the steam heating boiler that required a secondman; the switch to electric train heating allowed single-manning.

Brighton secondmen weren't trained on steam heated boilers which led to the odd 'incident' when the 47 on the 'Manchester' had one.

 

[Route115?]

My memory is hazy and rules changed over time but basically a second man was required:

To work the steam heat boiler
If any coupling / uncoupling was required
If the diagram was over 350 miles (later raised to 450 miles)
It the speed was over 100 mph (I know that HSTs required two drivers)
If the diagram was over a certain length, I think 8 hours, (before flexible rostering came)

Whilst a number of young firemen took redundancy I think that there was a "by attrition" agreement with ASLEF and many diagrams had second men simply because to utilise staff in the line of promotion.

A couple of other interesting points:

I think that some light engine movements may have required a second man and guard would not have been acceptable. (Visions of US railroad style demarcation, the trainmain concept came later.)

There was a grade of relief driver ands also "starred" drivers which dealt with staff who were primarily second men who were also qualified to drive trains.

I am very happy to be corrected on anything. I have an old conditions of service for conciliation staff somewhere which will doubtless tell all.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Back around 1984 In had the job of looking at how freight business costs arose on the W.R. as part of sectorisation.

My recollection is the customs for staffing that it varies considerably between Area Managers. For instance, when I visited Area Manager, Reading, I enquired about the Reading - Theale trip, which used a loco. fresh off depot. The staffing was as follows:
Driver - fair enough!
Secondman - Area Ops Manager said 'locos on or off a depot must have a secondman'.
Guard - Why? - other depots gave either secondman or guard
Travelling Shunter - Why? Secondman at other despots do shunting (coupling) as do guards.
And at Theale there was ... ... a ground shunter (i.e. man based there to do shunting)
So probably a sign of an A.O.M. who wanted an easy life. And an easy life at Theale, too...

But at Oxford, the charismatic then-A.M. (went on to much greater things) persuaded the LDC that a 350 could travel on the main line to local yards driver only - most depots required secondmen on the 'main line'. Apart from jokingly saying he'd arranged for a cardboard cut-out secondman in the cab for the run through Oxford station in case anyone was looking, in this case it was part of negotiations that benefitted both sides - in those days, because of the competition from the motor industry there was always a shortage of staff.

Concluding, I don't think there were any fixed nation-wide rules, or rather rules were subject to local interpretation, as these two extreme examples illustrate.

 

[D6130]

To work the steam heat boiler
If any coupling / uncoupling was required
If the diagram was over 350 miles (later raised to 450 miles)
It the speed was over 100 mph (I know that HSTs required two drivers)
If the diagram was over a certain length, I think 8 hours, (before flexible rostering came)

A secondman/driver's assistant was also required for turns where there was no opportunity for a PNB (Physical Needs Break)....for example on long, remote single line routes - such as the West Highland/Kyle/Far North/Cambrian lines - where crews changed over with their colleagues based at the opposite end of the line when trains travelling in opposite directions crossed each other.

 

[75A]

My memory is hazy and rules changed over time but basically a second man was required:

To work the steam heat boiler
If any coupling / uncoupling was required
If the diagram was over 350 miles (later raised to 450 miles)
It the speed was over 100 mph (I know that HSTs required two drivers)
If the diagram was over a certain length, I think 8 hours, (before flexible rostering came)

Whilst a number of young firemen took redundancy I think that there was a "by attrition" agreement with ASLEF and many diagrams had second men simply because to utilise staff in the line of promotion.

A couple of other interesting points:

I think that some light engine movements may have required a second man and guard would not have been acceptable. (Visions of US railroad style demarcation, the trainmain concept came later.)

There was a grade of relief driver ands also "starred" drivers which dealt with staff who were primarily second men who were also qualified to drive trains.

I am very happy to be corrected on anything. I have an old conditions of service for conciliation staff somewhere which will doubtless tell all.

It must have been different divisions had different rules.
My seniority was 4th Feb 1980, secondman @ Brighton MT.
We weren't trained on Steam Boilers , only 1 train a day occasionally had one which was a 47 on 'The Manchester'
We didn't couple or uncouple anything, not loco's together or anything else.
Brighton MT didn't have any turns anywhere near that sort of distance, I think the furthest we went was to Salisbury & back on a Saturday.
The highest speed on the lines in the2 divisions our drivers went on Central & South Western was 90mph
We regularly went on light engine moves (never a guard)

 

[Gloster]

A secondman/driver's assistant was also required for turns where there was no opportunity for a PNB (Physical Needs Break)....for example on long, remote single line routes - such as the West Highland/Kyle/Far North/Cambrian lines - where crews changed over with their colleagues based at the opposite end of the line when trains travelling in opposite directions crossed each other.

Also the Central Wales. (I am not going to give that silly modern ‘peoples’’ name.)

 

[StephenHunter]

I had to look up what a 350 was... they're Class 08s in TOPS. Ilford still has one.

 

[Undaunted]

A secondman/driver's assistant was also required for turns where there was no opportunity for a PNB (Physical Needs Break)....for example on long, remote single line routes - such as the West Highland/Kyle/Far North/Cambrian lines - where crews changed over with their colleagues based at the opposite end of the line when trains travelling in opposite directions crossed each other.

My experience dates from the late 1970s, but in those days for a duty to be single manned a PNB had to be at least 30 minutes in length (exclusive of time spent walking to and from the approved PNB facilities), and diagrammed between the 3rd and 5th hour of a duty that did not exceed 8 hours. Subject to LDC agreement, the PNB between third and fifth hour rule could be stretched by up to 10 minutes and a couple of minutes overtime might be ok. Bear in mind that many driver depots did not have secondmen (e.g. Southern depots with only electric multiple unit work such as Strawberry Hill or Guildford), so there wasn't an option to add a secondman to sort out a non-compliant diagram. However, slight non-compliances with the diagramming rules might be accepted by the LDC, especially for 'good' diagrams, e.g. turns of over 200 miles, which atrracted extra payment!

 

[75A]

I had to look up what a 350 was... they're Class 08s in TOPS. Ilford still has one.

or an 09 on the Southern.

My experience dates from the late 1970s, but in those days for a duty to be single manned a PNB had to be at least 30 minutes in length (exclusive of time spent walking to and from the approved PNB facilities), and diagrammed between the 3rd and 5th hour of a duty that did not exceed 8 hours. Subject to LDC agreement, the PNB between third and fifth hour rule could be stretched by up to 10 minutes and a couple of minutes overtime might be ok. Bear in mind that many driver depots did not have secondmen (e.g. Southern depots with only electric multiple unit work such as Strawberry Hill or Guildford), so there wasn't an option to add a secondman to sort out a non-compliant diagram. However, slight non-compliances with the diagramming rules might be accepted by the LDC, especially for 'good' diagrams, e.g. turns of over 200 miles, which atrracted extra payment!

On the Southern (Central), Second Men were based at the 3 MT Depots: Brighton, Norwood Junction & Redhill

 

[6Gman]

My experience dates from the late 1970s, but in those days for a duty to be single manned a PNB had to be at least 30 minutes in length (exclusive of time spent walking to and from the approved PNB facilities), and diagrammed between the 3rd and 5th hour of a duty that did not exceed 8 hours. Subject to LDC agreement, the PNB between third and fifth hour rule could be stretched by up to 10 minutes and a couple of minutes overtime might be ok. Bear in mind that many driver depots did not have secondmen (e.g. Southern depots with only electric multiple unit work such as Strawberry Hill or Guildford), so there wasn't an option to add a secondman to sort out a non-compliant diagram. However, slight non-compliances with the diagramming rules might be accepted by the LDC, especially for 'good' diagrams, e.g. turns of over 200 miles, which atrracted extra payment!

There was certainly flexibility in the interpretation of the national agreements.

This tended to be inversely proportional to the size of the depot! (Nuneaton, Pwllheli, Carnforth tended to be much more co-operative than a Crewe or a Saltley!)

As an example Pwllheli regarded changing cabs at Barmouth (i.e. crews of southbound and northbound swopping over) as a "break from the driving environment" which certainly wouldn't be accepted at most depots!

 

[Merle Haggard]

There was certainly flexibility in the interpretation of the national agreements.

This tended to be inversely proportional to the size of the depot! (Nuneaton, Pwllheli, Carnforth tended to be much more co-operative than a Crewe or a Saltley!)

As an example Pwllheli regarded changing cabs at Barmouth (i.e. crews of southbound and northbound swopping over) as a "break from the driving environment" which certainly wouldn't be accepted at most depots!

Possibly a factor was that small depots could be more easily closed if they were un-cooperative.

There was a certain small, one freight subsector dependant, depot which was visited by their man in the mac. from '222' and faced with the real threat of closure suddenly remembered that somehow their route knowledge enabled them to drive all over the country with just a little bit of refreshing. It wasn't only the 'seagulls'

 

[uglymonkey]

Wasn't the prototype HST cab redesigned ( from a central drivers position) to 2 seats side by side to have a second man for the unions?

 

[StephenHunter]

There was certainly flexibility in the interpretation of the national agreements.

My own research and reading has found that what the rulebook says and what was actually done isn't the same thing, yep.

 

[Merle Haggard]

My own research and reading has found that what the rulebook says and what was actually done isn't the same thing, yep.

That's why 'working to rule' could be very effective for us clerks in the old days...

 

[Sun Chariot]

Wasn't the prototype HST cab redesigned ( from a central drivers position) to 2 seats side by side to have a second man for the unions?

Yes, that's my understanding