Open Access

[ReverendFozz]

Can someone tell me how Open Access works and can it used in other methods of public transport?

 

[junglejames]

Can someone tell me how Open Access works and can it used in other methods of public transport?

Open Access is basically non franchised operators deciding to run train services on the national rail network. They dont receive subsidy, but they dont have to pay anything to the government either. As such they get very little protection (if any) from the DFT. Meaning if they go to the wall, you lose that service altogether. The government wont protect it like it does with franchised operators.

As far as i can see, all other forms of public transport is basically open access. Airlines are exactly like that (not that you have franchised operators in the first place), and buses are pretty much like it as well.

 

[ainsworth74]

Just to add to junglejames post (which was spot on) it's worth adding that whilst Open Access don't have to pay anything to the government they do still have to pay Network Rail track access charges for the trains that they run over NR metals. Also they do still have to apply to the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) for permission to run their services on the network. The ORR essentially only allow those applications to go ahead which aren't primary extracting revenue from other franchised TOC's and that the new operator is providing a service which is therefore needed rather than just stealing revenue for other TOC's.

 

[WestCoast]

Grand Central and First Hull Trains are current open access operators.

Is the Heathrow Express also considered Open Access, because it isn't subject to franchising and is run by BAA Heathrow?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is the Heathrow Express also considered Open Access, because it isn't subject to franchising and is run by BAA Heathrow?

As far as I am aware it is along with Heathrow Connect.

 

[12CSVT]

Probably sounds like a dumb question but are the 'Jacobite' and NYMR Grosmont - Whitby services run as open access ?

 

[scotsman]

Probably sounds like a dumb question but are the 'Jacobite' and NYMR Grosmont - Whitby services run as open access ?

Yes. WCRC likely bought the stock, paths and hires on the steam locos for the Jacobite at the end of BR

 

[ReverendFozz]

So basically Open Access is an at your own risk kind of service, so for example if Grand Central announced financial difficulty would they just cease running.

 

[tbtc]

So basically Open Access is an at your own risk kind of service

Basically, yeah.

Similarly, if GC had created such a profitable market taking people between London and Sunderland then there'd have been nothing to stop the ECML operator (GNER/ NXEC/ East Coast) from extending some London - Newcastle trains to Sunderland to tap into that market (if they could get paths).

However, there is one difference between an Open Access train service and a bus route. If I set up a bus route to compete with existing services, I only make the money I take through the fare box (plus reimbursement for letting OAPs on for free etc). However, any Open Access train company gets a share of the ORCATS money between any station it runs between. For example, GC run between London and York, so get a share of the total fare revenue between those stations (based on the proportion of London - York trains which they operate). This means that they get a stream of money from day one of operating, and is why some Open Access applications tend to aim for busy markets. For example, if you had an open access service from Rotherham to London it might not get a lot of passengers, but it'd get a share of the total ticket revenue for Sheffield - London journeys.

(this is me trying not to be biased on the subject, for a change )

 

[paulravuslante]

As far as I am aware it is along with Heathrow Connect.

Heathrow Connect is a joint service between Heathrow Express and First Great Western. Therefore technically it is an open access from Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow and franchised from Hayes & Harlington to London.

 

[jopsuk]

even more technically, it is only OA from H&H to Heathrow Junction- at which point it becomes a private railway.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Hanwell station is served almost exclusively by Heathrow Connect, with (according to Wikipedia) only two trains (at 0002 and 0856) actually operated by First Great Western, who manage the station. First Great Western have the franchise obligations for providing services from Hanwell, but they effectively sub-contract them to Heathrow Connect. Isn't this the same crime Chiltern were fined for (effectively subcontracting their obligations to WMSR)? And are First Great Western liable to be fined? Could Heathrow Connect (theoretically) stop operating 'out of the blue', like WMSR did leaving Hanwell with hardly any service?

 

[w1bbl3]

Hanwell station is served almost exclusively by Heathrow Connect, with (according to Wikipedia) only two trains (at 0002 and 0856) actually operated by First Great Western, who manage the station. First Great Western have the franchise obligations for providing services from Hanwell

The service between Hayes & Harlington and Paddington is operated by FGW unlike the Chiltern / WMSR arrangement, where WMSR operated the service. Heathrow connect is a franchised service as far as Hayes & Harlington with open access only used to extend the service to airport junction then a private agreement to cover airport junction to heathrow.

If Heathrow connect stopped tomorrow FGW would have to provide the franchised service.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

The trains from Hanwell are all Heathrow Connect trains (the difference between First Great Western and Heathrow Connect being purely 'aesthetic' - effectively almost all trains from Hanwell have Heathrow Connect written on them) so I don't see what the problem is with WMSR effectively providing the franchised service that Chiltern were obliged to provide - it made no difference but 'aesthetic' whether the train had Chiltern or W&S on it.

 

[paulravuslante]

The trains from Hanwell are all Heathrow Connect trains (the difference between First Great Western and Heathrow Connect being purely 'aesthetic' - effectively almost all trains from Hanwell have Heathrow Connect written on them) so I don't see what the problem is with WMSR effectively providing the franchised service that Chiltern were obliged to provide - it made no difference but 'aesthetic' whether the train had Chiltern or W&S on it.

The Heathrow Connect trains also have the FirstGroup logo on each end of the train. So they are providing a service through the joint venture with Heathrow Express / BAA. I don't know about the Chiltern example and how it differs.

 

[dk1]

Was good to see Virgin trains Chris Gibb speak out in Railnews (April) & not just sit back & take the critisism on WSMRs demise.

 

[martinsh]

For example, if you had an open access service from Rotherham to London it might not get a lot of passengers, but it'd get a share of the total ticket revenue for Sheffield - London journeys.

Not if you went direct to Chesterfield via Killamarsh, you wouldn't !

 

[ReverendFozz]

So when it comes to Open Access, could I just say 'right, I want to run a train from Sunderland to, say, Manchester and Liverpool, on getting approval from Network Rail, can you just start your service or do you need to jump through a lot of hoops

 

[sulli_os]

Hoops by the bucket load. Some things that you would have to deal with:

i)
The Manchester-Liverpool bit would take revenue away TPE/Northern. You would basically have to call only at stations that don't have a direct link to Sunderland/Liverpool, and might not be allowed to pick up passengers at Manchester who are headed for Liverpool.

ii) When making your application, all operators that you share the route with are given chance to object (your rolling stock might be considered too unreliable, so likely to affect their services).

This leads to an interesting situation where company X are claiming the trains company Y wants to use are too unreliable, but at the same time X are proposing using the very same trains for their own services along that route [and that's a real one].

iii) You'd have to prove that you were not likely to compromise the safety of the railway.

In reality, setting up an OA operation is slightly more complicated that brain surgery.

 

[ReverendFozz]

IIRC, didnt GNER/NXEC throw there toys out the pram because of Grand Central, I have a better idea of it now, thanks for the answers

 

[Lampshade]

IIRC, didnt GNER/NXEC throw there toys out the pram because of Grand Central, I have a better idea of it now, thanks for the answers

GNER moreso, which is ironic given they never directly competed as NXEC had already taken over when GC services started.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Calmac Ferries are similarly subsidised (though CalMac is state owned as well)

Can you clarify this statement more fully, please.

 

[merlodlliw]

Can someone tell me how Open Access works and can it used in other methods of public transport?

You asked the question in April,with responses in June, so to add to this

ATW/DB run two open access services on behalf of WAG who fund the trains which run between Holyhead & Cardiff once a day, Mon/Fri

These are the only two open access services of their kind in the UK, where ATW receive currently Over £2millions PA for what is called WAG1,loco hauled with additional Premier(1st) class dining carriage & over £100K a month to run a 175 which it hires in from the Wales & Borders franchise(itself).

Under the deal ATW/DB keep the fares.

From Dec timetable, the 175 OA will be replaced with a loco hauled class 67 DVT & 1st Class diner, WAG have paid ATW/DB £3.5millions to hire in stock & run this(WAG2) service for seven years.


I make no comment about varied opinions on these O A services, just to inform you they run & are not part of the franchise & can be terminated without replacement.


WAG also pay for a light aircraft to Fly from Anglesey to Rhoose Mon/Fri under the OA banner , this is funded at £1.6million a year.

Bob

 

[seventh-heaven]

ATW/DB run two open access services on behalf of WAG who fund the trains which run between Holyhead & Cardiff once a day, Mon/Fri

These are the only two open access services of their kind in the UK, where ATW receive currently Over £2millions PA for what is called WAG1,loco hauled with additional Premier(1st) class dining carriage & over £100K a month to run a 175 which it hires in from the Wales & Borders franchise(itself).



Bob

Whilst I understand your feelings about these services they are not technically Open Access. They are operated by ATW under their normal Track Access Agreement at the behest of the WAG and are therefore part of the services that ATW provide under their franchise.