Operations of the Waterloo-Exeter 50s (and loco diagramming in general)

[randyrippley]

The 16.38 Was Mk1's and class 33 until its very last day.

I read somewhere that it was a spare Oxted line set, which may account for the occasional HG loco turning up

 

[Gloster]

I read somewhere that it was a spare Oxted line set, which may account for the occasional HG loco turning up

Oxted sets were diagrammed at times on Saturdays and Sundays, not just on the Exeters, but also the Bristol services from Portsmouth. They also used to borrow coaches from New Cross Gate for strengthening the Exeters in summer.

 

[D6130]

Not at all common on the Central either, occasionally used see one at Redhill

When I was a guard at Brighton in the mid-1980s, 33/2s would turn up from time-to-time on the Brighton-Cardiff and Exeter jobs. I still have my guard's log books with the loco/unit/carriage numbers of all the trains that I worked recorded in them....together with the scheduled and actual timings.

 

[Cowley]

OK - thanks. Thought that may be the case.

33/2s were Hither Green examples, weren't they? Very rare on the SWD, if I remember right.

When I was a guard at Brighton in the mid-1980s, 33/2s would turn up from time-to-time on the Brighton-Cardiff and Exeter jobs. I still have my guard's log books with the loco/unit/carriage numbers of all the trains that I worked recorded in them....together with the scheduled and actual timings.

Being a bit of a 33 fan I remember a couple of times in 1987 a pair of 33/2s turning up at Exeter on the Brighton turns on a summer Saturday and taking them up the bank on the return working just to get them ticked off. I guess everything went out the window on a summer Saturday just to provide traction for the amount of trains that were being run?

 

[Helvellyn]

I do wonder if the West of England Line hadn't been transferred to the WR whether the SR might have ditched loco-hauled services, either for additional REPs/TCs (possibly electrification to Salisbury), or possibly a standard gauge version of Hastings DEMUs. Having to use off-route depots for locos and stock can't have helped the economics of the route, and how much traffic was carried West of Salisbury anyway?

 

[nw1]

Not at all common on the Central either, occasionally used see one at Redhill

Didn't they run the Oxted line peak workings though?

Have to admit I never saw them, I did visit East Croydon in 1986 before electrification but don't think I stayed long enough into the peak to see them.

 

[Magdalia]

There were 4 Oxted line sets, 8 cars all MarkIs except for MarkII FKs. They were based at New Cross Gate, I don't know if they had enough spare cars to form a 5th set if required.

The SX peak time trains on the Oxted line were hauled by Hither Green class 33s. For a while the 1818 London Bridge-East Grinstead was booked for a class 33/2.

From about 1977 or 1978 the carriages were employed elsewhere at weekends, most notably on the Brighton-Exeter/Paignton, but also on the trains to/from Bristol. This required various ecs moves on Friday and Sunday evenings, which allowed the Hither Green locos to go further afield. I think there was a period when the Brighton-Exeter was booked for a pair of class 33s one each from Eastleigh and Hither Green.

But the Southern kept the class 33s under tight control with locos needing to go back to home depot on 3 day cycles. It was quite rare to see Hither Green locos on Eastleigh diagrams or vice versa.

 

[nw1]

On the subject of class 33s, I remember there was a theory amongst people at school that "The Burma Star" (can't remember the number) was a very rare one which was difficult to see.

Certainly I never saw it at Woking during the 80s.

Is there some truth in this, e.g. was it often booked for specials and its mileage deliberately kept low?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

"The Burma Star"

056, another HG loco. As alluded to by others above HG loco's were pretty rare on SW metals back then, although they did pop up now and again. Will dig out my records, see what I can find.

 

[nw1]

056, another HG loco. As alluded to by others above HG loco's were pretty rare on SW metals back then, although they did pop up now and again. Will dig out my records, see what I can find.

Ah, ok, thanks, for some reason I'd misremembered all 33/0s as belonging to Eastleigh and only 33/2s were HG.

Relevant to the general thread I've dug out a little bit more info from the BR Coaching Stock groups.io group (has selected LH CWNs and one unit CWN, from 1967) on the timescale of the inbound Chertsey working which then formed the 0900 Exeter. This ran in 1978 (in addition to 1979, already mentioned I think?) but did not run in either 1976 (was ECS from Clapham) or 1981 (off the 0640 Salisbury inbound). Other years' CWNs are not available.

Interesting that prior to the 1980s there was little opportunity for commuting into London from anywhere beyond Basingstoke on the line, with no morning peak arrivals.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

IIRC 33/0's, 034 upwards were all HG based back then.

Interesting that prior to the 1980s there was little opportunity for commuting into London from anywhere beyond Basingstoke on the line, with no morning peak arrivals.

Must admit having looked at the old GBTT's available via TT World, the years when I first started commuting in to London (70's) the pattern of main line arrivals in to Waterloo was some what sparse in the overall sense, when compared to more recent times (pre covid). Is it any wonder that Waterloo's capacity (in terms of day in, day out, reliability) was maxed out long before the somewhat over ambitious TT bid put forward by the latest incumbents prior to the change of hands in 2017 !

 

[30907]

I do wonder if the West of England Line hadn't been transferred to the WR whether the SR might have ditched loco-hauled services, either for additional REPs/TCs (possibly electrification to Salisbury), or possibly a standard gauge version of Hastings DEMUs. Having to use off-route depots for locos and stock can't have helped the economics of the route, and how much traffic was carried West of Salisbury anyway?

IIRC the original idea was a full-width (pedantic correction) DEMU, though I suspect that might have been whittled down to a REP-TC solution (or certainly something involving a lot of Mk1 conversions).

 

[Gloster]

Work patterns were different in those days: I would think that the changes mainly took took place in the early 1980s. Those who had to be in the office at 09.00 lived fairly close in: with a few exceptions, places like Basingstoke, Sevenoaks or Reading were the limit. Those who lived further out were the ‘gentlemen commuters’ (and most were probably male) who didn’t need to come in so early and could leave before the rush: the extra travelling time and cost didn’t really worry them. Although there were some who lived further out, the number just did not make earlier commuter services worthwhile: on the Salisbury line they had to get a stopper and change at Basingstoke or, from Salisbury, they had the option of changing at Southampton, or they drove to Basingstoke or Winchester.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Here are a few observations I made back in the day, and I will try to keep it West Of England or South West Main line (route) orientated and Hither Green (HG) Crompton related. I can vouch for all these, and have my own photos of many. Some of these may be recorded on the 'Railgen' website, but I haven't checked.

15-6-85: 33045 worked 22.10 Waterloo-Salisbury.
3-8-85: 33054 worked 20.30 Waterloo-Yeovil.
28-7-85: 33035 hitched a lift with 47292 on the 19//00 (Light eng) move from Woking to Eastleigh depot.
23-1-86: 33202 worked 17.30 Salisbury to Waterloo.
7-6-86: 33057 worked Down 'Bournemouth Belle' Pullman.
5-7-86: 33205 stabled in Hurdles Sidings at Woking.
11-10-86: 33045 spent the evening in Woking Up Yard with a few vans.
11-10-86: 33048 noted with Eastleigh's 33009 & 026 in the West Carriage siding at Salisbury.
18-4-87: 33048 worked 09.13 Brighton to Exeter and return 1417 Exeter to Brighton.
20-4-87: 33044 worked 18.20 Salisbury to Waterloo.
25-4-87: 33059 noted in Woking Down yard.
2-5-87: 33206 passed Woking Light engine in Down direction.
8-5-87: 33204 worked the final 16.38 Waterloo to (West of England) train.
?-2-88: 33211 noted in Woking Down Bay.
26-3-88: various withdrawn Crompton's noted on Eastleigh depot. HG examples were: 034, 037, 043, 044, 049, 062, 065, 210 & 212.
28-5-88: 33209 arrived Woking Down yard with exhibits for the 'Woking 150' event. In tow were Lord Nelson 850, M7 245 and a 4 COR DM from unit 3131.
29-5-88: 33206 displayed in Woking Down yard (for 'Woking 150') in Railfreight livery....(ugh.....no offence to anyone else, but we all have our favourites!)

There are a number of other observations I made relating to (in particular) the Pompey-Cardiff route, which I can add if anyone is interested?

 

[Magdalia]

Work patterns were different in those days: I would think that the changes mainly took took place in the early 1980s. Those who had to be in the office at 09.00 lived fairly close in: with a few exceptions, places like Basingstoke, Sevenoaks or Reading were the limit. Those who lived further out were the ‘gentlemen commuters’ (and most were probably male) who didn’t need to come in so early and could leave before the rush: the extra travelling time and cost didn’t really worry them. Although there were some who lived further out, the number just did not make earlier commuter services worthwhile: on the Salisbury line they had to get a stopper and change at Basingstoke or, from Salisbury, they had the option of changing at Southampton, or they drove to Basingstoke or Winchester.

Waterloo had a lot of Whitehall civil servant commuters, and some big industrial companies had large HQs around Westminster. What are now Thames House and Millbank Tower, near to Lambeth Bridge, were originally HQs for ICI and Vickers.

And of course Sunshine Desserts was near Waterloo, from which we know that everything arriving at Waterloo was 11 minutes late.

The event that really changed commuting was financial deregulation in 1986. The biggest direct effect was on commuting to the City of London, which affected Waterloo less than most other London termini. But there was an indirect effect that changed working patterns in the Civil Service and big corporations too.

 

[nw1]

Waterloo had a lot of Whitehall civil servant commuters, and some big industrial companies had large HQs around Westminster. What are now Thames House and Millbank Tower, near to Lambeth Bridge, were originally HQs for ICI and Vickers.

And of course Sunshine Desserts was near Waterloo, from which we know that everything arriving at Waterloo was 11 minutes late.

The event that really changed commuting was financial deregulation in 1986. The biggest direct effect was on commuting to the City of London, which affected Waterloo less than most other London termini. But there was an indirect effect that changed working patterns in the Civil Service and big corporations too.

Were there any significant changes to peak service patterns from 1986 though? I do remember improved off-peak frequencies in the late 80s on some lines under NSE, but there seemed to be little change in the peak.

Here are a few observations I made back in the day, and I will try to keep it West Of England or South West Main line (route) orientated and Hither Green (HG) Crompton related. I can vouch for all these, and have my own photos of many. Some of these may be recorded on the 'Railgen' website, but I haven't checked.

15-6-85: 33045 worked 22.10 Waterloo-Salisbury.
3-8-85: 33054 worked 20.30 Waterloo-Yeovil.
28-7-85: 33035 hitched a lift with 47292 on the 19//00 (Light eng) move from Woking to Eastleigh depot.
23-1-86: 33202 worked 17.30 Salisbury to Waterloo.
7-6-86: 33057 worked Down 'Bournemouth Belle' Pullman.
5-7-86: 33205 stabled in Hurdles Sidings at Woking.
11-10-86: 33045 spent the evening in Woking Up Yard with a few vans.
11-10-86: 33048 noted with Eastleigh's 33009 & 026 in the West Carriage siding at Salisbury.
18-4-87: 33048 worked 09.13 Brighton to Exeter and return 1417 Exeter to Brighton.
20-4-87: 33044 worked 18.20 Salisbury to Waterloo.
25-4-87: 33059 noted in Woking Down yard.
2-5-87: 33206 passed Woking Light engine in Down direction.
8-5-87: 33204 worked the final 16.38 Waterloo to (West of England) train.
?-2-88: 33211 noted in Woking Down Bay.
26-3-88: various withdrawn Crompton's noted on Eastleigh depot. HG examples were: 034, 037, 043, 044, 049, 062, 065, 210 & 212.
28-5-88: 33209 arrived Woking Down yard with exhibits for the 'Woking 150' event. In tow were Lord Nelson 850, M7 245 and a 4 COR DM from unit 3131.
29-5-88: 33206 displayed in Woking Down yard (for 'Woking 150') in Railfreight livery....(ugh.....no offence to anyone else, but we all have our favourites!)

There are a number of other observations I made relating to (in particular) the Pompey-Cardiff route, which I can add if anyone is interested?

Thanks for those - no "Burma Star" by the looks of it but plenty of others.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

no "Burma Star" by the looks of it but plenty of others.

It worked the 08.10 Pompey to Cardiff on 1-2-86, returning with the 12.05 Bristol TM to Pompey. Also paired with 027 on a tour to Coalville (open day?) on 31-5-87, both observed personally, although likely also noted elsewhere I am sure?

 

[nw1]

It worked the 08.10 Pompey to Cardiff on 1-2-86, returning with the 12.05 Bristol TM to Pompey. Also paired with 027 on a tour to Coalville (open day?) on 31-5-87, both observed personally, although likely also noted elsewhere I am sure?

Ah ok, thanks. I never really touched the Portsmouth to Cardiff route until the 1990s, so would have missed the goings-on there.

As an aside what traffic were HG 33s typically deployed on? There are the Oxted peak services but that's obviously just a few; so presumably parcels and freight primarily?

 

[Cowley]

Were there any significant changes to peak service patterns from 1986 though? I do remember improved off-peak frequencies in the late 80s on some lines under NSE, but there seemed to be little change in the peak.



Thanks for those - no "Burma Star" by the looks of it but plenty of others.

I did pick up 056 on a working somewhere back then (my notes from 1987/88 are long since lost unfortunately) and I have a feeling it was on a Portsmouth - Cardiff working. However it and 33052 Ashford were always fairly rare in Exeter. The other three original named ones (008,025 and 027) were regulars down here, all being Eastleigh machines.
Ah nice memories!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Can't remember if 11 April '87 was significant in any way, but there were a few relief trains running that day. 33058 worked a relief 08.36 Waterloo to Exeter. Whilst on depot at Salisbury I noted 33105 departing (Salis) with a 12.20 relief to Yeovil formed of 10 LM Mk1's. 33051 was on the 11.10 Bristol to Pompey that day as well.

 

[Siemens Staines]

11 April 1987 was a NSE day, so there would have been plenty of reliefs running right across the NSE network

 

[nw1]

I did pick up 056 on a working somewhere back then (my notes from 1987/88 are long since lost unfortunately) and I have a feeling it was on a Portsmouth - Cardiff working. However it and 33052 Ashford were always fairly rare in Exeter. The other three original named ones (008,025 and 027) were regulars down here, all being Eastleigh machines.
Ah nice memories!

I remember seeing "Eastleigh" (33008?) quite a lot but the other one I never saw was "Earl Mountbatten of Burma" (presumably Eastleigh-based also).

11 April 1987 was a NSE day, so there would have been plenty of reliefs running right across the NSE network

Was that a regular NSE day? Have to confess I don't recall that one though I clearly remember the 21 June and 13 September 1986 ones.
The former featured my only ever journey in a REP/TC combo and the latter my first trip to the South Eastern Division and first time on a CEP (though I'd been on the SWD BEPs many times before that!)

 

[Siemens Staines]

I believe 11 April 1987 was a regular NSE Network Day. I recall six

21 June 1986
13 September 1986
22 November 1986
11 April 1987
24 October 1987
16 April 1988

but I think that there were one or two after this that I did not have any involvement with.

 

[JonathanH]

I think that there were one or two after this that I did not have any involvement with

Later, by 1990 at least, they gave holders of Network Cards the ability to choose their own 'Network Days', presumably to spread the loads.

 

[L+Y]

How quickly did the NSE class 50 rundown happen? And were there any appearances of a 50 on a regular service after May 1992?

 

[Controller1701]

Big Jumby 74. If you have any info related to Friday 11-02-83 I would be interested to know. I have some known workings from a bashers group on facebook, along with photographic evidence of 33211 working the 08:40 Hoo Junction to Woking Down Yard (Keeps it on topic for Woking...) with a VEP going over the top. This is all for a project I am working on for producing a timetable for a PC signalling simulation.

D6130, again if you still have any of your log books from 11-02-83 then would be interested in some real unit allocations from that day for the same signalling simulation software. It is also very possible that you would have know my late father and grandfather who were a guard and driver respectively at Ore up until that little depot closed in 1986

Paul

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Big Jumby 74. If you have any info related to Friday 11-02-83

Sorry, nothing much done (or survived) for that month, or for much of '83 as a whole to be honest.

 

[Snow1964]

How quickly did the NSE class 50 rundown happen? And were there any appearances of a 50 on a regular service after May 1992?

There was a date (which I have forgotten, but someone else might know) where the 2 loco stabling docks at end of platform 9 at Waterloo closed. 2 extra platform tracks were built along part of the former cab road and through the site of the loco stabling docks. The 50s (and regular loco working) into Waterloo was effectively stopped.

What is now platforms 13-17 were platforms 11-15 after extra pair were built. The old offices that had survived when station rebuild plan was cut back after WW1 (were rebuilding across and done new 1-15 when war stopped work) became site of another pair of new platforms (now 18 & 19). With total cut from 21 to 19 platforms, wasn't possible to have the loco movements.

This was all in preparation for closing the old 1886 Windsor side station so site could be rebuilt as Eurostar station.

 

[33017]

Not at all common on the Central either, occasionally used see one at Redhill

OK - thanks. Thought that may be the case.

33/2s were Hither Green examples, weren't they? Very rare on the SWD, if I remember right.

Once they moved to Stewart’s Lane and the Hastings line tunnels were singled, they became almost as common as the Standards, and an SL loco was just as likely to turn-up on passenger work as Eastleigh.

 

[75A]

Right, I'd left Brighton by the time that happened.