Operations of the Waterloo-Exeter 50s (and loco diagramming in general)

[D6130]

D6130, again if you still have any of your log books from 11-02-83

Unfortunately I was still a train planner in Scotland on that date. I didn't move over - after a short hiatus - to the traffic grades at Brighton until the beginning of November 1983, completing my guard's training and passing-out in November 1984.

It is also very possible that you would have know my late father and grandfather who were a guard and driver respectively at Ore up until that little depot closed in 1986

Very probably. I worked quite fequently with Ore drivers and often swapped for a late turn job which involved working a Brighton- Eastbourne stopper with a Brighton driver, then me working with an Ore driver the Ore portion of the following express from Victoria. On arrival at Ore, we shunted the 4-CIG unit into the depot and I then had a nearly three hour PNB at Ore, before working the last stopper at 22 52 back to Brighton. I became well-aquainted with the fish & chip shops - and occasionally pubs - in that end of Hastings. However, if it was raining heavily - or I had brought sandwiches - I would stay in the messroom and read a book....during which time several of the Ore crews would come in to sign-off. If you would like to tell me the names of your father and grandfather, you could DM me if you prefer. (Apologies for going OT).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

There was a date (which I have forgotten, but someone else might know) where the 2 loco stabling docks at end of platform 9 at Waterloo closed. 2 extra platform tracks were built along part of the former cab road and through the site of the loco stabling docks. The 50s (and regular loco working) into Waterloo was effectively stopped

The exact date the dock roads (between plats 11 and 12 as was) closed escapes me now, but by March 1989 there was a large hole (exposing the brick arches beneath) where No 1 dock once was, alongside plat 11. Loco hauled working using the new plats 12/13 on the site of the cab road, did continue for a while after the new platforms opened, as per my photo attached, although how much longer this continued escapes me again.

 

[nw1]

How quickly did the NSE class 50 rundown happen? And were there any appearances of a 50 on a regular service after May 1992?

I spent a day at Woking in 1991 (post timetable change) and fairly sure that all services were 47/7 by then.

Also ISTR the 1991 timetable being irregular with no consistent departure time for Exeter at Waterloo, and certainly the through Salisbury workings had been lost.

 

[Cowley]

How quickly did the NSE class 50 rundown happen? And were there any appearances of a 50 on a regular service after May 1992?

I don’t think there were after around that date.

I spent a day at Woking in 1991 (post timetable change) and fairly sure that all services were 47/7 by then.

Also ISTR the 1991 timetable being irregular with no consistent departure time for Exeter at Waterloo, and certainly the through Salisbury workings had been lost.

There were still 50s on the line in 1991, in fact I think they only finished properly in January 1992.

1991 was a bit of an Indian summer for loco hauled fans on the route with the 47/7s, some 47/4s, the remaining 50s and numerous class 33s handling trains throughout the year.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Like many others no doubt, the ex ScR 47/7's were not new to us, having known them in their previous guises when the highest numbered loco was 47555, or even Dxxxx for some I am sure. Just a shame some of them looked so shabby during their brief forays out of Waterloo.
One rarity for 1991, was 23 August, when 37258 in RF grey (ugh!), worked the 13.55 Plymouth to Waterloo. Took a couple of pics at Waterloo, and here again it ran in to the 'new' plat 12. It returned west that evening though off hand can't remember on what. Probably listed on Railgenarchive I guess?

 

[nw1]

I don’t think there were after around that date.


There were still 50s on the line in 1991, in fact I think they only finished properly in January 1992.

1991 was a bit of an Indian summer for loco hauled fans on the route with the 47/7s, some 47/4s, the remaining 50s and numerous class 33s handling trains throughout the year.

Ah ok, thanks. I don't recall any 50s on the occasion that I visited Woking, but it's possible that either they weren't running that day or they were booked on early or late services.

 

[Cowley]

Ah ok, thanks. I don't recall any 50s on the occasion that I visited Woking, but it's possible that either they weren't running that day or they were booked on early or late services.

I’m sure I remember a period during that year when class 50 availability fell through the floor for a couple of weeks.

I’m actually off today so I’ve just been rooting through my remaining couple of books. The last 50 I had was on 6/12/91 - 50029 on the 14:22 Exeter to Waterloo which when we got to Salisbury was cancelled with the train and loco reused as a 16:55 relief to Southampton (I was going to Romsey so I caught it).

Perhaps something had happened between Salisbury and Basingstoke that afternoon and it was a way to get around it?

Quite interesting looking at the early part of the year. On 1/1/91 I had 33101 to Axminster for 50027 back, three days later 47576 to Yeovil Junction for 50001 back, the day after that (5/1/91) 33101 again to Feniton for a 108/101 DMU back. If you were bashing in Exeter back then it was sometimes difficult to know which direction to go.

Edit - @nw1, this is a really interesting article and has lots of information about diesel hauled services on the line:

From 10202 To 50050: Waterloo - Exeter Diesel Operations

extra.southernelectric.org.uk

 

[AY1975]

There was a date (which I have forgotten, but someone else might know) where the 2 loco stabling docks at end of platform 9 at Waterloo closed. 2 extra platform tracks were built along part of the former cab road and through the site of the loco stabling docks. The 50s (and regular loco working) into Waterloo was effectively stopped.

What is now platforms 13-17 were platforms 11-15 after extra pair were built. The old offices that had survived when station rebuild plan was cut back after WW1 (were rebuilding across and done new 1-15 when war stopped work) became site of another pair of new platforms (now 18 & 19). With total cut from 21 to 19 platforms, wasn't possible to have the loco movements.

This was all in preparation for closing the old 1886 Windsor side station so site could be rebuilt as Eurostar station.

The exact date the dock roads (between plats 11 and 12 as was) closed escapes me now, but by March 1989 there was a large hole (exposing the brick arches beneath) where No 1 dock once was, alongside plat 11. Loco hauled working using the new plats 12/13 on the site of the cab road, did continue for a while after the new platforms opened, as per my photo attached, although how much longer this continued escapes me again.

I had always assumed that the closure of the dock roads and the creation of two new platforms in their place happened at the same time as the Eurostar terminal was built in the 1990s, but from what you say it sounds as if it happened a few years earlier, probably some time in about the late 1980s or right at the start of the '90s.

If the two new platforms opened before the old 1886 Windsor side station closed, then I would guess that in their last few years of operation the Windsor side platforms would have been renumbered as Platforms 18 to 23 (as I recall they were numbered 16 to 21 until that time).

There are several YouTube videos of Waterloo from around that time. This one of Class 50s at Waterloo in 1991 would appear to suggest that the former cab road was still in situ at this time, but if loco-hauled trains did use the new Platforms 12 and 13 then I would guess that work to create those two platforms must have started soon after this sequence was filmed:

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Edit - @nw1, this is a really interesting article and has lots of information about diesel hauled services on the line:

From 10202 To 50050: Waterloo - Exeter Diesel Operations

extra.southernelectric.org.uk

Having read the article earlier today I would highly recommend it to anyone with more than a passing interest in this thread.

Some perusal of the railgenarchive site highlighted that at times the operation of the North Devon line (Exeter-Barnstaple) was linked to that of the Waterloo route. In particular the late evening Exeter-Basingstoke being operated by the same loco and stock that worked the 1605 Exeter-Barnstaple and 1755 return. Which begs the question: was there any similar linkage in the morning? Back in the days of rail carriage of newspapers there was a 0400(ish) Exeter-Barnstaple working which was in the public timetable. The Loco Hauled Travel books of the day included it in their listings and though for some years it was booked a 31 I'm sure 33s also worked this service. And 50s were known to reach Barnstaple too.

 

[Gloster]

Having read the article earlier today I would highly recommend it to anyone with more than a passing interest in this thread.

Some perusal of the railgenarchive site highlighted that at times the operation of the North Devon line (Exeter-Barnstaple) was linked to that of the Waterloo route. In particular the late evening Exeter-Basingstoke being operated by the same loco and stock that worked the 1605 Exeter-Barnstaple and 1755 return. Which begs the question: was there any similar linkage in the morning? Back in the days of rail carriage of newspapers there was a 0400(ish) Exeter-Barnstaple working which was in the public timetable. The Loco Hauled Travel books of the day included it in their listings and though for some years it was booked a 31 I'm sure 33s also worked this service. And 50s were known to reach Barnstaple too.

A look at the carriage workings confirms my recollection that the coaches off the 06.32 Salisbury stabled at Exeter until they worked the 16.08 to Barnstaple and 18.00 return, after which they worked the 20.20 to Basingstoke and the 00.04 back to Salisbury (and repeat). The GUV on the back of the 20.20 returned from Basingstoke to Salisbury on the 03.43 parcels and went on the back of the 06.32. The 04.05 Exeter-Barnstaple was a three-car DMU with a GUV tied on the back for newspapers. The parcels were taken out in vans, CCT by this time, on the ca. 03.00 freight, which was Class 25 and later Class 31 hauled. (This situation was, I think, basically unchanged from 1979 until at least 1982.)

 

[Big Jumby 74]

There are several YouTube videos of Waterloo from around that time. This one of Class 50s at Waterloo in 1991 would appear to suggest that the former cab road was still in situ at this time, but if loco-hauled trains did use the new Platforms 12 and 13 then I would guess that work to create those two platforms must have started soon after this sequence was filmed:

That view of the NSE liveried 50 departing light engine is from the 'new' platform 12 (ie part of the old cab road, note the bollards on the left), these were new and mark the line of the side of the 'Boots' store that is accessible directly to the right when exiting todays platform 12 barrier gate line.
As a planner based at Waterloo during the 80/90's I have a comprehensive, albeit amateur collection of images I took throughout that period that I have now donated to a certain group who have both Waterloo and the L&SWR in general at the heart of their interests, and in return a number of their published works they have produced about Waterloo have given me many hours of interest and learning about (in a times past sense) a station which in my time, I had a small, but perhaps pivotal part to play - as in platforming/stock diagramming - and I will add, I was just one of a number of planners so involved, many of whom I still know, and others, sadly, are no longer with us.

 

[Cowley]

A look at the carriage workings confirms my recollection that the coaches off the 06.32 Salisbury stabled at Exeter until they worked the 16.08 to Barnstaple and 18.00 return, after which they worked the 20.20 to Basingstoke and the 00.04 back to Salisbury (and repeat). The GUV on the back of the 20.20 returned from Basingstoke to Salisbury on the 03.43 parcels and went on the back of the 06.32. The 04.05 Exeter-Barnstaple was a three-car DMU with a GUV tied on the back for newspapers. The parcels were taken out in vans, CCT by this time, on the ca. 03.00 freight, which was Class 25 and later Class 31 hauled. (This situation was, I think, basically unchanged from 1979 until at least 1982.)

I’m a bit busy the moment so I can’t have a proper look, but did we cover some of those workings in this thread?

Lapford station yard

Evening everyone. A bit of a long shot, but does anyone know when the last freight ran to Lapford and what was carried etc? The yard was cut back sometime in the 1980s but still received traffic quite late on. It's only recently (the last ten years) that the loop and remaining sidings were taken...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A look at the carriage workings confirms my recollection that the coaches off the 06.32 Salisbury stabled at Exeter until they worked the 16.08 to Barnstaple and 18.00 return, after which they worked the 20.20 to Basingstoke and the 00.04 back to Salisbury (and repeat). The GUV on the back of the 20.20 returned from Basingstoke to Salisbury on the 03.43 parcels and went on the back of the 06.32. The 04.05 Exeter-Barnstaple was a three-car DMU with a GUV tied on the back for newspapers. The parcels were taken out in vans, CCT by this time, on the ca. 03.00 freight, which was Class 25 and later Class 31 hauled. (This situation was, I think, basically unchanged from 1979 until at least 1982.)

Some brilliant detail, thanks.

Returning to HG 33s one working which I've never seen reported but I'm sure was booked work concerned the North Downs line. The basic service back in the day was hourly Reading-Tonbridge reversing at Redhill with traction being Thumpers, the Tadpoles (Class 206) predominating. There was also a peak working, which also ran on Saturdays, an 0747 Redhill-Reading returning at just after 1700 formed of three Mk1s hauled by a HG 33. As a newbie spotter in 1975/6 I didn't appreciate the comparative rarity of this working and indeed it finished with the timetable change of May 1976. What I don't know is whether the 33 was used between those trains at Reading for a cross-country working to Poole and back; my notes as a beginner were lacking in such details!

Also from railgenarchive it's clear that while the cyclic diagrams which covered the Marches line were intended to be operated solely by EH locos HG examples turned up sufficiently often to not really be rarities despite the assertions of some. There was one loco however which did have the reputation of being hard to bash, namely 33047. I have recently read that this loco at some point developed an ETH fault which led to it being kept away from passenger work as much as possible except during genuine warm spells and indeed on railgenarchive it only appears once in both 1983 and 1984 before obviously having the fault repaired.

 

[nw1]

Edit - @nw1, this is a really interesting article and has lots of information about diesel hauled services on the line:

From 10202 To 50050: Waterloo - Exeter Diesel Operations

extra.southernelectric.org.uk

Thanks for that, did take a look a few days ago (someone else posted the link) though haven't yet read all the way through.

 

[Magdalia]

Some perusal of the railgenarchive site highlighted that at times the operation of the North Devon line (Exeter-Barnstaple) was linked to that of the Waterloo route. In particular the late evening Exeter-Basingstoke being operated by the same loco and stock that worked the 1605 Exeter-Barnstaple and 1755 return. Which begs the question: was there any similar linkage in the morning?

There wasn't a similar working in the morning. The loco off the 0004 Basingstoke-Salisbury worked ballast empties to Exeter Riverside. The loco off the loaded ballast train from Meldon worked the 0632 Salisbury-Exeter.

 

[Controller1701]

Big Jumby 74, No worries it was worth a shot.

D6130, no worries again it was worth a shot, I can remember having to go to 'work' with my dad during school holidays. I guess my favourite turn from that time was 07:20 Ore to Brighton, then one of the Brighton to Victoria fasts before taking an Epsom Downs service as far as Selhurst. I can remember there being a very nice cafe right outside the station opposite the depot gate. Then taking over the same unit on the way back from Epsom Downs to Victoria to then do a Victoria to Ore. I can also remember being stood by the window next to the guards van and despite knowing they were approaching always having a 'jump scare' at the girder bridges each end of the former covered way at Coulsdon North. DM sent

Cheers both

Paul

 

[30907]

I’m a bit busy the moment so I can’t have a proper look, but did we cover some of those workings in this thread?

Lapford station yard

Evening everyone. A bit of a long shot, but does anyone know when the last freight ran to Lapford and what was carried etc? The yard was cut back sometime in the 1980s but still received traffic quite late on. It's only recently (the last ten years) that the loop and remaining sidings were taken...

www.railforums.co.uk

That thread is more about freight and infrastructure (I've skimmed it) so I will add

1. At one stage in the 70s one of the WR sets started back from Barnstaple on summer Saturdays, forming the 10xx ESD-WAT.
2. The 1973 WTT (and from about 1969) has several SO round trips Exeter-Barnstaple but starting too early for them to have been the Basingstoke 4-set. By the mid 70s there were other LH workings round Exeter but that's getting OT.

 

[Richard Scott]

I don’t think there were after around that date.


There were still 50s on the line in 1991, in fact I think they only finished properly in January 1992.

1991 was a bit of an Indian summer for loco hauled fans on the route with the 47/7s, some 47/4s, the remaining 50s and numerous class 33s handling trains throughout the year.

Fairly sure had one or two in early 1992, will check my records. Seem to remember having 50050 on a fairly cold day in January 1992.

 

[Graham H]

It was never ever a DMU, always 1 or 2, 6 car 'Hastings Units'. (DEMU)
Brighton Top Link drivers took them to Salisbury & back.
They were run ECS from St Leonards, to Brighton, then up to Preston Park, then down to Hove and then back to Brighton platform 2.

The 33 hauled coaches were run 'ECS' from New Cross Gate to Hove, then back into Brighton platform 2.

I used the train from Brighton just once (2 x 33's) but as there was no loco at the buffer stops of P2, was the entire consist reversed from Hove (unlikely) or did something pilot it to the station throat and then cut off via P3 leaving the train loco to reverse the short distance to P2

 

[nw1]

I used the train from Brighton just once (2 x 33's) but as there was no loco at the buffer stops of P2, was the entire consist reversed from Hove (unlikely) or did something pilot it to the station throat and then cut off via P3 leaving the train loco to reverse the short distance to P2

Incidentally, regarding the DEMU towards Salisbury, it's interesting to note it had to go Preston Park-Hove-Brighton.

I say this as in the early 80s (according to CWNs) there was some interworking between Brighton Main Line and Coastway West services, suggesting some platforms had access to both lines. Presumably links were added which were not present in the days of this DEMU?

For example, 1982, Platform 3, 1318 from Victoria due 1442 forms 1510 to Portsmouth.

 

[D6130]

I say this as in the early 80s (according to CWNs) there was some interworking between Brighton Main Line and Coastway West services, suggesting some platforms had access to both lines. Presumably links were added which were not present in the days of this DEMU?

Only platform 3 was/is accessible from both the main and West Coastway lines....and in the case of the latter, only for a maximum of four cars.

 

[Magdalia]

Only platform 3 was/is accessible from both the main and West Coastway lines....and in the case of the latter, only for a maximum of four cars.

That's what Brighton is like now, but it wasn't always like that.

I have a 1970 map where the track layout is different. Platform 3 was only accessible from the West Coastway. However platform 2 had a route out onto what was called the West Carriage Road, which ran into number 1 up siding on Lovers Walk Depot.

I have no idea when the track layout was changed to give access to platform 3 from the main line.

 

[nw1]

Only platform 3 was/is accessible from both the main and West Coastway lines....and in the case of the latter, only for a maximum of four cars.

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying that. Yes, above service was 4VEP.

That thread is more about freight and infrastructure (I've skimmed it) so I will add

1. At one stage in the 70s one of the WR sets started back from Barnstaple on summer Saturdays, forming the 10xx ESD-WAT.

This was still the case as late as 1982 according to the timetable on Timetable World, by then the 0938 service from Exeter.

Interesting to note the 0632 Salisbury then worked a Barnstaple local later in the day before going back to Basingstoke; I'd have expected this to work the 0945 (Mon-Fri) Exeter to Waterloo.

In 1981 (I have the LH CWN for this year) it looks like the Exeter-Basingstoke was actually advertised as a through 1914 Barnstaple-Basingstoke, and was run with just 5 coaches so clearly separate from the "normal" Waterloo-Exeter stock. As already noted this formed the 0632 Salisbury the following day.

On Mondays however the 0632 Salisbury was one of the standard 9-car sets, by the looks of things. Presumably on Mondays it did work back as the 0945 (ESD is not present in the LH CWN, unfortunately).

Finally from 1981, whereas most Waterloo-Salisbury shorts were TC formed, there was also the 1410 Waterloo-Salisbury on Mon-Fri and 1730 return, and 1010/1410 Waterloo-Salisbury and 1210/1710 return on Sats, which were formed of conventional hauled stock (in addition to the 1638 already noted). I do remember spending time at Woking on several Saturdays in 1983 and noting the alternation between 33+TC and 33+conventional hauled stock on the Salisbury shorts, thinking about it.

 

[Cowley]

I used the train from Brighton just once (2 x 33's) but as there was no loco at the buffer stops of P2, was the entire consist reversed from Hove (unlikely) or did something pilot it to the station throat and then cut off via P3 leaving the train loco to reverse the short distance to P2

Wasn’t there some involvement with a class 09 regarding the reversals back then? I seem to remember that it was a way of ticking them off for haulage but I might be misremembering something.

 

[30907]

This was still the case as late as 1982 according to the timetable on Timetable World, by then the 0938 service from Exeter.

I may have my dates wrong then!

Interesting to note the 0632 Salisbury then worked a Barnstaple local later in the day before going back to Basingstoke; I'd have expected this to work the 0945 (Mon-Fri) Exeter to Waterloo.

In 1981 (I have the LH CWN for this year) it looks like the Exeter-Basingstoke was actually advertised as a through 1914 Barnstaple-Basingstoke, and was run with just 5 coaches so clearly separate from the "normal" Waterloo-Exeter stock. As already noted this formed the 0632 Salisbury the following day.

That working applied in one form or another from the late 60s - apart from anything else, it gave the WR time to maintain their stock (and 8-9 cars on the Basingstoke/Salisbury would have been overkill).

On Mondays however the 0632 Salisbury was one of the standard 9-car sets, by the looks of things. Presumably on Mondays it did work back as the 0945 (ESD is not present in the LH CWN, unfortunately).

Makes sense, there being no need for the Barnstaple on a Sunday, no doubt the set got used for something else

Finally from 1981, whereas most Waterloo-Salisbury shorts were TC formed, there was also the 1410 Waterloo-Salisbury on Mon-Fri and 1730 return, and 1010/1410 Waterloo-Salisbury and 1210/1710 return on Sats, which were formed of conventional hauled stock (in addition to the 1638 already noted).

From memory, the hauled sets were a Channel Islands set (on the 1638 etc) and the Newspapers set (0140 WAT-YVL etc). However, the actual workings changed over the period.

Fairly certain there have been previous threads on this period.

(Note - the CI service needed 2 sets SX, with a long layover from 1000-0930 until someone at Wimbledon spotted an opportunity/need.)

 

[Cowley]

I may have my dates wrong then!

That working applied in one form or another from the late 60s - apart from anything else, it gave the WR time to maintain their stock (and 8-9 cars on the Basingstoke/Salisbury would have been overkill).

Makes sense, there being no need for the Barnstaple on a Sunday, no doubt the set got used for something else

From memory, the hauled sets were a Channel Islands set (on the 1638 etc) and the Newspapers set (0140 WAT-YVL etc). However, the actual workings changed over the period.

Fairly certain there have been previous threads on this period.

(Note - the CI service needed 2 sets SX, with a long layover from 1000-0930 until someone at Wimbledon spotted an opportunity/need.)

Four pages in and this thread continues to be fascinating. Thanks for the above information @30907.

 

[nw1]

From memory, the hauled sets were a Channel Islands set (on the 1638 etc) and the Newspapers set (0140 WAT-YVL etc). However, the actual workings changed over the period.

Fairly certain there have been previous threads on this period.

(Note - the CI service needed 2 sets SX, with a long layover from 1000-0930 until someone at Wimbledon spotted an opportunity/need.)

Looks about right from the 1981 CWNs.

The 1410 Salisbury Mon-Fri earlier worked the 0836 Salisbury-Waterloo (with trip to Clapham Yard), which looks like it started its day on the overnight Yeovil.

The 1638 Yeovil FO / Salisbury FX (as was then) worked the 2120 Salisbury-Basingstoke (plus ECS Yeovil-Salisbury on Fri) then went ECS to Clapham Yard, to form the following day's 1638.

 

[Gloster]

Looks about right from the 1981 CWNs.

The 1410 Salisbury Mon-Fri earlier worked the 0836 Salisbury-Waterloo (with trip to Clapham Yard), which looks like it started its day on the overnight Yeovil.

The 1638 Yeovil FO / Salisbury FX (as was then) worked the 2120 Salisbury-Basingstoke (plus ECS Yeovil-Salisbury on Fri) then went ECS to Clapham Yard, to form the following day's 1638.

Until 1980 the 06.50 Yeovil went through to Waterloo and the coaches sat about at Clapham until the News. Thereafter the train only ran to Salisbury and there was a connection. As said, the set then worked a train an hour later to Waterloo and a p.m. Waterloo-Salisbury and return. (From memory.)

 

[30907]

Looks about right from the 1981 CWNs.

The 1410 Salisbury Mon-Fri earlier worked the 0836 Salisbury-Waterloo (with trip to Clapham Yard), which looks like it started its day on the overnight Yeovil.

Yes. By 1983 (the WTT is on timetableworld.com) the Yeovil was through to Exeter and back, they are the only vac braked workings via Andover.

The 1638 Yeovil FO / Salisbury FX (as was then) worked the 2120 Salisbury-Basingstoke (plus ECS Yeovil-Salisbury on Fri) then went ECS to Clapham Yard, to form the following day's 1638.

Rather than the 0940 CI boat train? (My memory of the CI services in the 1980s is vague - the two-boat service wasn't all summer as it used to be.)

 

[Gloster]

Yes. By 1983 (the WTT is on timetableworld.com) the Yeovil was through to Exeter and back, they are the only vac braked workings via Andover.

Rather than the 0940 CI boat train? (My memory of the CI services in the 1980s is vague - the two-boat service wasn't all summer as it used to be.)

In 1980 the Channel Islands Boat Trains were part of a two-day cycle that included the 16.38 to Salisbury or Yeovil and the 21.20. The Yeovil News coaches, minus their News vans, worked the 14.10 Waterloo-Salisbury and 17.20 return.