Ordsall Chord - will it be Pacer proof?

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aformeruser

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The Ordsall Chord will need to be a very curvy section of track. Pacers are banned from lines in Cornwall such as St Ives Bay Line because it's too curvy. Could the Ordsall Chord finish up being unsuitable for Pacers?
 
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raildude

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The Ordsall Chord will need to be a very curvy section of track. Pacers are banned from lines in Cornwall such as St Ives Bay Line because it's too curvy. Could the Ordsall Chord finish up being unsuitable for Pacers?
It is quite possible.

I would imagine Class 142 units would be rather rare in the area for the Hub proposals anyway.

What services are intended to use the Chord?

Presumably most services will just be 185s going to Yorkshire.

The other services will be 319s going to Liverpool via Chat Moss.
 

Nym

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The oldest units to use it will proberbly be 158s...

The actual cord is intended to be used by (from current service patterns)

Cleethorpes - Sheffeild - Manchester airport
Newcastle - Manchester Airport
Middlesbrough - Manchester Airport
Calder Valley - Manchester Airport

None of these should be pacers, the Calder Valley being formed of either 155, 156 or 158 units based at Leeds or Manchester. Since it's proberbly going to be the Semi-Fasts through the Calder Valley being sent to the Airport, linking Bradford, Toddy etc. directly.
 

aformeruser

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The North TPE Airport services would use the chord, alongside some Calder Vale services which would be extended to the Airport.

North TPE Airport services are all 185s at present but may move over to EMU operation in the not too distance future.

Calder Vale are practically any DMU at the moment.

Given the location of Newton Heath and that some services start/terminate at Manchester Oxford Road, I can see the Ordsall Chord being used for ECS moves.

What's also worth noting is Victoria will need less trains from the west terminating there to allow through platforms to be used for through trains.
 

aformeruser

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The oldest units to use it will proberbly be 158s...

The actual cord is intended to be used by (from current service patterns)

Cleethorpes - Sheffeild - Manchester airport
Where have you got that information from?

The Network Rail document says:

For the Sheffield services, and East Manchester services,
- doubling Dore Station Jn to Dore West Jn and loops at Grindleford to let extra fast trains run between Sheffield/East Midlands and cities in the north west; these services would operate in pairs half hourly - one in each pair to Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Victoria respectively
- loops at Chinley to allow the extra fast trains to be sent via Marple, thereby avoiding constraints between Edgeley and Slade Lane. Such loops would allow commuter services to be extended to Chinley from New Mills Central and or Hazel Grove
- for the Manchester Piccadilly based solution the level of service at Ashburys required four tracking of Ashburys - Guide Bridge; whereas a Manchester Victoria based solution required linespeed improvements on the Marple line, but by taking the North trans Pennine services away from the Ashburys – Guide Bridge corridor this option leaves flexibility for more commuter services there.
 

83G/84D

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The Ordsall Chord will need to be a very curvy section of track. Pacers are banned from lines in Cornwall such as St Ives Bay Line because it's too curvy. Could the Ordsall Chord finish up being unsuitable for Pacers?
According to the Sectional Appendix Class 142's and 143's ARE actually passed for ALL Cornish branch lines.

They are unlikely to work on any of them however due to crewing issues.
 

aformeruser

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Was in a Northern Hub draft doccy IIRC...
It's not in the one I've got which is the big 85 page one. It does mention Liverpool-Norwich going via Victoria and Chat Moss but then dismisses it.

It does also mention re-routing Liverpool-Norwich away from Sheffield and having a new Sheffield-Manchester-Preston service. However, I think the idea of Sheffield-Preston has gone now the North West electrification has been approved.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Would not the supposed date of Pacer renewal to a different vehicle with correct bogies be really all that far removed from the completion date currently envisaged for the operational use of the Ordsall Chord. I am sure that the matter of any class 142 Pacer using the Ordsall Chord will have already been subject to technical evaluation, knowing how many of these units will still be in operational use.
 

starrymarkb

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According to the Sectional Appendix Class 142's and 143's ARE actually passed for ALL Cornish branch lines.

They are unlikely to work on any of them however due to crewing issues.
Plus the main reason for not using them on the branchlines is that if they stay on them long term they go through wheelsets like a big wheelset eating thing. They were needing new sets near constantly.

One or two trips shouldn't be a big issue though :)
 

aformeruser

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Would not the supposed date of Pacer renewal to a different vehicle with correct bogies be really all that far removed from the completion date currently envisaged for the operational use of the Ordsall Chord. I am sure that the matter of any class 142 Pacer using the Ordsall Chord will have already been subject to technical evaluation, knowing how many of these units will still be in operational use.
2016 is the year the Ordsall Chord is due to open.

Pacers have no fixed withdrawal date. However, they are expected to be withdrawn before the end of 2019 for DDA reasons.

Plus the main reason for not using them on the branchlines is that if they stay on them long term they go through wheelsets like a big wheelset eating thing. They were needing new sets near constantly.

One or two trips shouldn't be a big issue though :)
That shouldn't still be so much of an issue now as Pacers had modifications to reduce the effect of wheel ware. If they hadn't they wouldn't be used on very tight curves at Carnforth, Lincoln, Altrincham etc. The Merseyrail 507s and 508s had a similar problem on the city centre loop but modifications to the units cured the problem.
 

bluenoxid

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The oldest units to use it will proberbly be 158s...

The actual cord is intended to be used by (from current service patterns)

Cleethorpes - Sheffeild - Manchester airport
Newcastle - Manchester Airport
Middlesbrough - Manchester Airport
Calder Valley - Manchester Airport

None of these should be pacers, the Calder Valley being formed of either 155, 156 or 158 units based at Leeds or Manchester. Since it's proberbly going to be the Semi-Fasts through the Calder Valley being sent to the Airport, linking Bradford, Toddy etc. directly.
Heavens, even being that optimistic, the 319's would be older but I still expect the 142's to be using it on Rochdale/Calder Valley to MIA services.
 

Chris125

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I think people are getting confused here - Pacer's are ill suited to frequent use on line's with many sharp curves because of the wear, not because they cant get round them. The Ordsall Chord isnt an issue.

Chris
 

hairyhandedfool

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The Ordsall Chord will need to be a very curvy section of track. Pacers are banned from lines in Cornwall such as St Ives Bay Line because it's too curvy. Could the Ordsall Chord finish up being unsuitable for Pacers?
If you look on google maps you will see how tight the curves at ordsall lane are currently. 142s are common sights there at present and I cannot see the chord being any more tight than those already there.

....Calder Valley - Manchester Airport

None of these should be pacers, the Calder Valley being formed of either 155, 156 or 158 units based at Leeds or Manchester. Since it's proberbly going to be the Semi-Fasts through the Calder Valley being sent to the Airport, linking Bradford, Toddy etc. directly.
Well I can't say exactly what is used for what services, but I do know that 143s are used on the Calder Valley line aswell.
 

150222

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If you look on google maps you will see how tight the curves at ordsall lane are currently. 142s are common sights there at present and I cannot see the chord being any more tight than those already there.



Well I can't say exactly what is used for what services, but I do know that 143s are used on the Calder Valley line aswell.


Calder valley services are operated by classes 142, 144!!!,150,153,155 or 158.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's easy to know the differance.
143- South west/south wales.
144- Yorkshire.
 

starrymarkb

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That shouldn't still be so much of an issue now as Pacers had modifications to reduce the effect of wheel ware. If they hadn't they wouldn't be used on very tight curves at Carnforth, Lincoln, Altrincham etc. The Merseyrail 507s and 508s had a similar problem on the city centre loop but modifications to the units cured the problem.
Even then remember that those are just isolated curves. Last time I took the Looe branch the 153 was squeeling for about 50% of the run. If a unit spends the day shuttling back and forth on the branch it's going to suffer a lot more then a unit that squeels around say Lincoln and is then on fairly straight track for the next hour or two.
 

aformeruser

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Even then remember that those are just isolated curves. Last time I took the Looe branch the 153 was squeeling for about 50% of the run. If a unit spends the day shuttling back and forth on the branch it's going to suffer a lot more then a unit that squeels around say Lincoln and is then on fairly straight track for the next hour or two.
I see your point but how intensive are the FGW diagrams? If the unit has a 15 minute break at both ends before running a return service then it won't have as much effect on the unit as if it has a 5 minute break at both ends.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Calder valley services are operated by classes 142, 144!!!,150,153,155 or 158.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's easy to know the differance.
143- South west/south wales.
144- Yorkshire.
Yeah well they are the same thing to me:roll::oops:
 

Chris125

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I see your point but how intensive are the FGW diagrams? If the unit has a 15 minute break at both ends before running a return service then it won't have as much effect on the unit as if it has a 5 minute break at both ends.
Whether its 5 minutes or 15 minutes, the wheelsets are still being worn by constant use on a line with endless sharp curves. Its that simple.

Chris
 

aformeruser

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Whether its 5 minutes or 15 minutes, the wheelsets are still being worn by constant use on a line with endless sharp curves. Its that simple.
What I was meaning is a 55 minute journey with a 5 minute turnaround time and 15 minutes of going around curves isn't any worse than a 25 minute journey with 15 minutes of going around curves and a 35 minute turnaround time.
 
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