Orion high speed logistics letting the train take the strain.

[furnessvale]

Because most of those HGVs would have something to return, e.g. Tesco lorries delivering empty crates etc

But somehow the trains cannot chase those same backloads, just as the Tesco trains do?

 

[bussnapperwm]

But somehow the trains cannot chase those same backloads, just as the Tesco trains do?

It's the UK rail network. Common sense does not apply.

 

[ExRes]

Because most of those HGVs would have something to return, e.g. Tesco lorries delivering empty crates etc

Which surely means that the trains would be doing exactly the same thing?

 

[Darandio]

Which surely means that the trains would be doing exactly the same thing?

You'd hope so. But the quoted article clearly states “The problem we have is the train needs to be filled in both directions” which suggests that despite interest increasing it hasn't been sufficient to fill a train both ways.

 

[LowLevel]

Now that we're delivering so many goods, I can't see why these ideas wouldn't work - using already available paths in the day/night. You have the Royal Mail train(s) so why not others carrying parcels or goods from one distribution point to another?

A lot has changed from years ago, and this isn't about wanting to send the odd parcel on a passenger train. You can imagine the risk of theft/damage and the need to scan/search packages before mixing with passengers. What worked or didn't work years ago doesn't really apply now, so it probably isn't even worth making any comparisons.

Small scale rail courier operations do exist - EMR for example provide space on board class 222s to carry small time sensitive parcels to London, having pioneered the service on HSTs and found it worthwhile enough to make arrangements on the 222s as well.

They're not exactly turn up and send for the public, however.

 

[Dr Hoo]

But somehow the trains cannot chase those same backloads, just as the Tesco trains do?

Rather harder to ‘triangulate’ a train to another loading point in the same area, which lorries often do.

(I am still confused about how you can get 30 HGVs of stuff into an 8-car EMU, at least in any sensible time.)

 

[jopsuk]

So efficient it collapsed completely in the face of well organised private sector road parcel distribution. It won’t be coming back no matter how much people hope. I can’t see Orion doing much either.

Orion is not trying to do a RedStar. They're not (as far as I can see) aiming to be a consumer level business. Rather, they appear to be targeting as their customers the likes of DPD, Hermes, Yodel, Amazon Logistics, UKMail and the host of smaller operators

 

[Brooke]

Rather harder to ‘triangulate’ a train to another loading point in the same area, which lorries often do.

(I am still confused about how you can get 30 HGVs of stuff into an 8-car EMU, at least in any sensible time.)

It’s common knowledge in the haulage industry that there is an imbalance with far more going up to Scotland than coming down. So with all the limitations that a train has vs a truck, I imagine this will not be easy for them to overcome.

 

[furnessvale]

It’s common knowledge in the haulage industry that there is an imbalance with far more going up to Scotland than coming down. So with all the limitations that a train has vs a truck, I imagine this will not be easy for them to overcome.

As HGVs grow pantographs to collect their fossil free fuel and gather at collection points to be formed into one driver convoys (let's call them trains, but not as fuel efficient) these limitations will become less apparent.

 

[hwl]

It’s common knowledge in the haulage industry that there is an imbalance with far more going up to Scotland than coming down. So with all the limitations that a train has vs a truck, I imagine this will not be easy for them to overcome.

A reasonable number of HGV operates triangular (or more point) type routes rather than out and back type runs inorder to improve utilisation and backhaul levels.

Imbalances vary a lot but sector, e.g. Amazon some goods imported may go to the Northern warehouses in containers (often some rail element) by rail, then packages for end customers head south on the double deck trailers. Orion can only compete for the later.
For most other delivery firms there will be a net northbound flow to Scotland so theoretically there could be a balance but given the time constraints the same train would need to be departing northbound and southbound simultaneously to keep customers happy, the backhaul opportunites might well be at the wrong times unless more 48 hour deliveries can be sold.

RM getting their parcel drop box concept going on large scale might really help.

 

[jon0844]

As HGVs grow pantographs to collect their fossil free fuel and gather at collection points to be formed into one driver convoys (let's call them trains, but not as fuel efficient) these limitations will become less apparent.

While Elon Musk might want us to think different, until we see huge gains in battery energy density, I feel fully electric lorries are still a bit of a pipedream - given the reduced carrying capacity of a lorry laden with batteries.

Of course I'm sure these problems will be overcome in time, but there's a reason why Tesla hasn't turned America into a nation of electric trucks and the project is years behind schedule as I assume they wait for battery tech to catch up.

This is another opportunity for rail, although when the Government is announcing cuts to HS2 and probably a series of other upgrades that won't really benefit freight, I guess we're not going to see as many opportunities as we otherwise might there either.

What we'll end up with is more diesel trucks and vans in use up to and beyond 2030. Amazon and the like will likely have switched to EVs for last mile deliveries long before, but I'm talking about the bigger vehicles.

 

[Wolfie]

Presumably in "ye olde days", one would collect a parcel from the station themselves. Perhaps this felt old fashioned a decade ago, but now every off licence owner and his dog (amongst others) operate as an Amazon collection point - could certain railway stations perform the same function again?

Some already do (not necessarily Amazon but you get the drift).

 

[92002]

Some already do (not necessarily Amazon but you get the drift).

However given the current shortage of HGV drivers the opportunity to provide a quick long distance service could just take off. Its even environmentally friendly too.

If the unit was at Shieldmuir the other day. That's a Post Office depot. So maybe the return journey could find business there. They tend to do long distance road journeys for now.

 

[swt_passenger]

Orion is not trying to do a RedStar. They're not (as far as I can see) aiming to be a consumer level business. Rather, they appear to be targeting as their customers the likes of DPD, Hermes, Yodel, Amazon Logistics, UKMail and the host of smaller operators

Yes sure, but I still think all those examples will be happy with the status quo…

 

[jon0844]

If there's scope for, say, Amazon to fill a train to send things to Scotland (I think that's where a lot of or even all returns go, where they're checked, sorted and sent either for resale via Amazon warehouse or scrapped*) but not much to return at the time it would need to leave to get back to London, can they not manage things more effectively with extra trains?

That way a train arriving at Scotland can go into a sidings and run back at a more suitable time, when it can contain goods, and there's still a unit in London able to go up the next day. No trains run empty unless there really is nothing to move and the second train is needed at the other end to stop them both ending up in one place. Surely there are goods to move south? What about food? Could these trains have refrigerated containers loaded, with power taken from the train?

In other words, train 1 leaves Euston to Scotland and train 2 leaves Scotland. Both then sit around until ready to go each day, rather than running empty.

Of course there are crewing issues to work out and other logistics, but with plenty of old trains out there there is not necessarily a need to worry too much about running empty as with a lorry. With a lorry, there's a driver that moves his/her tractor around - but different drivers can move around the freight, and the driver now in the wrong location can travel PASS on other trains instead of taking an entire unit with him/her.

* I was shocked just how much undamaged goods are destroyed because it's considered easier and cheaper. I also have no idea where this facility is located in relation to the railway.

 

[jopsuk]

Yes sure, but I still think all those examples will be happy with the status quo…

I don't think that Orion would have reached where they are if they didn't have serious interest from some of the big boys

 

[hwl]

If there's scope for, say, Amazon to fill a train to send things to Scotland (I think that's where a lot of or even all returns go, where they're checked, sorted and sent either for resale via Amazon warehouse or scrapped*) but not much to return at the time it would need to leave to get back to London, can they not manage things more effectively with extra trains?

That way a train arriving at Scotland can go into a sidings and run back at a more suitable time, when it can contain goods, and there's still a unit in London able to go up the next day. No trains run empty unless there really is nothing to move and the second train is needed at the other end to stop them both ending up in one place. Surely there are goods to move south?

Have a look at the warehouse codes on your Amazon deliveries - quite a few of mine come from Scotland or the NorthEast (and I live in London)

 

[jon0844]

Have a look at the warehouse codes on your Amazon deliveries - quite a few of mine come from Scotland or the NorthEast (and I live in London)

A lot of my deliveries come out of Milton Keynes, which I assume is a major hub for where I live, but I think all returns go to one location in Scotland?

These are items that might not be time sensitive for delivery and be ideal for movement by rail.

Naturally, such new services aren't just for Amazon - but I'm thinking that there is probably justification for a service for Amazon alone, even before you consider all the other services and carriers. Frankly, I can't see how it wouldn't be a success (if it failed, it wouldn't be through lack of demand, but poor planning or other logistical issues that we're not aware of).

 

[doningtonphil]

I think that Tesco has proved that the Scottish route is the best suited to moving from road to rail. All of the express parcel operators have hubs in the midlands each with multiple linehaul trucks travelling to each of their scottish depots. TNT for example will probably have 2 or 3 trucks to each of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness and more. Multiply that by DPD, DHL and the rest and that is a lot of trucks on the M6 at night.

Of course it is all time sensitive, with some items needing to be delivered some distance from these depots by 0900 the next morning, so the question is if 1 train departing at some time after 02:00 from the Midlands could get to scottish locations in time to be offloaded at whatever hub and trucks deliver the items to the various depots in time to achieve the timed deliveries

I think a big concern the express parcel operators would hva is that all of their eggs would be in one basket. IF one truck fails - traffic/road closure/catches fire/accident then they can work around it so only a percentage fail. If one trains fails then kaboom, that is a lot of delayed consignments

 

[XAM2175]

A lot of my deliveries come out of Milton Keynes, which I assume is a major hub for where I live, but I think all returns go to one location in Scotland?

The primary returns handling centre for the UK is attached to the EDI4 fulfillment centre at Dunfermline.

 

[hwl]

A lot of my deliveries come out of Milton Keynes, which I assume is a major hub for where I live, but I think all returns go to one location in Scotland?

These are items that might not be time sensitive for delivery and be ideal for movement by rail.

Naturally, such new services aren't just for Amazon - but I'm thinking that there is probably justification for a service for Amazon alone, even before you consider all the other services and carriers. Frankly, I can't see how it wouldn't be a success (if it failed, it wouldn't be through lack of demand, but poor planning or other logistical issues that we're not aware of).

Not the final delivery location (which is my case doesn't hold any stock it is just where the HGV is emptied into vans) but which can some time be the same especially in the MK case (less so in other locations /areas) but the stock originating warehouse which is why one order often has multiple packages* - Amazon also move stock between warehouses to the final packing location if you go for minimal # packets and wait a bit longer option (i.e. another day)

*E.g. I'll get one from Scotland and one from MK

 

[jon0844]

I tried to be green (and save cardboard) and bundle orders together on my nominated day, and it was supposedly out for delivery that day - I could even track it approaching me (about 8 stops away) and then it didn't turn up and they said there was a problem.

I later tracked it returning towards Milton Keynes and it didn't come the next day, or the day after. God knows what happened. When it did turn up, a lot of it was separately packaged anyway (presumably items from different hubs) so no cardboard savings anyway.

So, as I pay for Prime, I now buy things as and when and opt for same/next day as offered - and if they bundle it, so be it. In many cases, they all come separately from different carriers.

(Going even more off topic; recently I was offered the chance to return items without packing it to save the environment. Take it to a collection hub and they'll scan the return code on your phone and put it in a secured container, which is then taken with loose items in it. I turn up and they look at me like I was having a laugh and told me to go away and pack it up, and that they don't and never have done this! Yet Amazon offers this as an option. Maybe it sounds good in their press releases to sound green, whether they actually do it or not.).

 

[Bertie the bus]

Which surely means that the trains would be doing exactly the same thing?

The question is how would they bring something back? If they are going to deliver to city centre stations, and the article mentions this is viable because HGVs are going to be charged large amounts to enter ulez's, then what goods will they be able to pick up at these stations to take back south, and how will they get there?

 

[hwl]

The question is how would they bring something back? If they are going to deliver to city centre stations, and the article mentions this is viable because HGVs are going to be charged large amounts to enter ulez's, then what goods will they be able to pick up at these stations to take back south, and how will they get there?

Just pre Euro 6/VI diesel are chaged so anything newer than 5 years is ok.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Just pre Euro 6/VI diesel are chaged so anything newer than 5 years is ok.

That means the railway has no advantage over HGVs then. It isn't just a matter of ulez's anyway. Many large city centre terminuses used to have the ability to accept lorries as they dispatched or received newspapers and the post. In the last 30 years most have been redeveloped and no longer can. It also isn't the modern method of logistics to take large loads into city centres for onward transport. The goods go to distribution centres and are sent out from there. The moving of goods from distribution centres to city centres is the easy bit, as ROG have stated its getting a load to move back south from those city centres that is the problem and the logistics sector isn't going to go back in time 40 years to how things worked in the 1980s.

 

[hwl]

That means the railway has no advantage over HGVs then. It isn't just a matter of ulez's anyway. Many large city centre terminuses used to have the ability to accept lorries as they dispatched or received newspapers and the post. In the last 30 years most have been redeveloped and no longer can. It also isn't the modern method of logistics to take large loads into city centres for onward transport. The goods go to distribution centres and are sent out from there. The moving of goods from distribution centres to city centres is the easy bit, as ROG have stated its getting a load to move back south from those city centres that is the problem and the logistics sector isn't going to go back in time 40 years to how things worked in the 1980s.

UPS were originally interested because it was taking an hour to get from the nearest main depot to central London (and same on return) hence a big potential improvement in driver efficiencies and makes electric vans easier as the overall mileage is less and lower recharging requirements.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Yes, interested in getting stuff from the distribution centre into central London. Not interested in getting stuff out of central London. That is the issue, no backloads.

 

[chiltern trev]

I think that Tesco has proved that the Scottish route is the best suited to moving from road to rail. All of the express parcel operators have hubs in the midlands each with multiple linehaul trucks travelling to each of their scottish depots. TNT for example will probably have 2 or 3 trucks to each of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness and more. Multiply that by DPD, DHL and the rest and that is a lot of trucks on the M6 at night.

I live near Carlisle and on the M6 in Cumbria in the evening there is a steady stream of HGVs both southbound and northbound and easily outnumbering cars.

And if you watch the BBC TV weather forecasts, when the UK night map is shown you can clearly see the M6/A74(M)/M74 from Preston to Glasgow - and that is HGV headlights.

 

[Grumpy Git]

And if you watch the BBC TV weather forecasts, when the UK night map is shown you can clearly see the M6/A74(M)/M74 from Preston to Glasgow - and that is HGV headlights.

I'm not sure that is a live image to be honest!

 

[Starmill]

I understand that the ORION Royal Mail service is operating today?