ORR P-Code data releases.

[Snow1964]

New data 17th May on p-codes

Chiltern 24
East Midlands 15
LNER 114
Northern 1030
Scotrail 67
TfW 6
Transpennine 160
West Midlands 153

Northern and LNER both 4.5% for adjusted cancellation rate (about 1 in 21 trains don't operate)

P-coded cancellations | ORR Data Portal

 

[Moonshot]

New data 17th May on p-codes

Chiltern 24
East Midlands 15
LNER 114
Northern 1030
Scotrail 67
TfW 6
Transpennine 160
West Midlands 153

Northern and LNER both 4.5% for adjusted cancellation rate (about 1 in 21 trains don't operate)

P-coded cancellations | ORR Data Portal

Likely to get worse for Northern in the coming period.....as ASLEF have informed them that members will not be working rest days for all of June and July. This also includes Sunday's

 

[dk1]

It’s been so long since Greater Anglia needed to P-Code that I think they’ve forgotten how to do it

Likely to get worse for Northern in the coming period.....as ASLEF have informed them that members will not be working rest days for all of June and July. This also includes Sunday's

Yes a colleague who drives for Northern shew me that yesterday. Looks like another chaotic summer for Northern passengers unless the company gets its house in order.

 

[Snow1964]

Likely to get worse for Northern in the coming period.....as ASLEF have informed them that members will not be working rest days for all of June and July. This also includes Sunday's

If a company got its act together wouldn't be expecting anyone to work on booked days off, so wouldn't make any difference.

And why exactly 2 months, not for 3 months etc

 

[dk1]

If a company got its act together wouldn't be expecting anyone to work on booked days off, so wouldn't make any difference.

And why exactly 2 months, not for 3 months etc

Non-contractual overtime to be withdrawn from 00:01 on 1st June until 23:59 Saturday 27th July.

 

[hello]

Strange not see xc on there at all

 

[Benjwri]

Non-contractual overtime to be withdrawn from 00:01 on 1st June until 23:59 Saturday 27th July.

Is this all TOC action or just Northern?

 

[dk1]

Is this all TOC action or just Northern?

Only Northern.

 

[Moonshot]

If a company got its act together wouldn't be expecting anyone to work on booked days off, so wouldn't make any difference.

And why exactly 2 months, not for 3 months etc

But the reality is that there is , and always has been , some sort of requirements for drivers to work overtime voluntarily. That has always been the case and will continue to be so. The reason it is 2 months is that it coincides with a new rest day agreement which was due to start on 2nd June and end on 27th July.

 

[td97]

Non-contractual overtime to be withdrawn from 00:01 on 1st June until 23:59 Saturday 27th July.

Presumably Northern's previous overtime agreement has now expired, hence now seeing 100+ cancellations per day (every day, not just Sundays). So this would just be a continuation of the present situation?

This also includes Sunday's

Is this really likely to make any difference? The biggest factor in Sunday unreliability is guards' availability. Perhaps felt more on Eastern side rather than Western.

 

[Snow1964]

But the reality is that there is , and always has been , some sort of requirements for drivers to work overtime voluntarily. That has always been the case and will continue to be so. The reason it is 2 months is that it coincides with a new rest day agreement which was due to start on 2nd June and end on 27th July.

I am aware of voluntary overtime, but it is different to rest day working (even if some people seem to use terms interchangeably)

My point is voluntary overtime might be short notice offer to help cover couple of hours when someone is sick. It is quite weak to base your staffing strategy on regular cancelling in advance (p-code) which is what northern are doing.

P-code is not supposed to be a substitute for failing to have staff allocated as spare (as part of their normal annual roster) to cover these last minute sickness and unavailability, without it being their days off.

No one should ever plan to be above the average level of voluntary overtime, because guaranteed to be short half the time, should plan to assume voluntary overtime levels will be much lower because being short short of staff should be exception, not a daily norm.

Yes there might be last minute changes, and last minute cancellations, but in a properly managed company you don't contract to operate a timetable that you can't staff routinely without needing people to come in on booked days off.

I agree with your point, always going to be some voluntary overtime, but that is fundamentally different to cannot manage everyday, (or specifically over 250 trains per week) rather than occasionally have problems without some overtime

 

[Moonshot]

I am aware of voluntary overtime, but it is different to rest day working (even if some people seem to use terms interchangeably)

My point is voluntary overtime might be short notice offer to help cover couple of hours when someone is sick. It is quite weak to base your staffing strategy on regular cancelling in advance (p-code) which is what northern are doing.

P-code is not supposed to be a substitute for failing to have staff allocated as spare (as part of their normal annual roster) to cover these last minute sickness and unavailability, without it being their days off.

No one should ever plan to be above the average level of voluntary overtime, because guaranteed to be short half the time, should plan to assume voluntary overtime levels will be much lower because being short short of staff should be exception, not a daily norm.

Yes there might be last minute changes, and last minute cancellations, but in a properly managed company you don't contract to operate a timetable that you can't staff routinely without needing people to come in on booked days off.

I agree with your point, always going to be some voluntary overtime, but that is fundamentally different to cannot manage everyday, (or specifically over 250 trains per week) rather than occasionally have problems without some overtim

In which case Northern should simply slash timetabled services by around 20% so as there is no reliance on overtime ( or rest day working). That way everyone knows where they stand......drivers simply work a 35 hour week and that's it. Doing that would mean PCoding wouldn't be required

 

[Snow1964]

In which case Northern should simply slash timetabled services by around 20% so as there is no reliance on overtime ( or rest day working). That way everyone knows where they stand......drivers simply work a 35 hour week and that's it. Doing that would mean PCoding wouldn't be required

You are missing the point, they have accepted the timetable first, so staffing levels should be based on that, on a timetable less 20%

 

[Moonshot]

You are missing the point, they have accepted the timetable first, so staffing levels should be based on that, on a timetable less 20%

But the reality is that staffing levels are what they are.....and as I pointed out , the P coding situation is going to get worse from June because of a complete ban on any driver working more than 35 hours a week. That is the reality. Most drivers I know are quite happy working rest days as it's quite lucrative, but as it stands now, the fact that industrial relations within Northern are poor is hampering the day to day timetable provision. If they didn't exist, then everyone would be happy and this P code situation wouldnt actually exist

 

[43066]

I am aware of voluntary overtime, but it is different to rest day working (even if some people seem to use terms interchangeably)

My point is voluntary overtime might be short notice offer to help cover couple of hours when someone is sick. It is quite weak to base your staffing strategy on regular cancelling in advance (p-code) which is what northern are doing.

Short notice overtime of that type sometimes arises in a railway context, but doesn’t generally translate very well to traincrew schedules which are based around fatigue requirements, minimum test between turns etc.

Yes there might be last minute changes, and last minute cancellations, but in a properly managed company you don't contract to operate a timetable that you can't staff routinely without needing people to come in on booked days off.

Not necessarily. A properly managed company might quite reasonably conclude that employing fewer staff and relying on overtime made commercial sense. Of course such a company would also have freedom to manage its own industrial relations and provide sufficient incentives to ensure it had enough volunteers to run the service (as freight, open access currently do). Northern is no longer in that position.

But the reality is that staffing levels are what they are.....and as I pointed out , the P coding situation is going to get worse from June because of a complete ban on any driver working more than 35 hours a week. That is the reality. Most drivers I know are quite happy working rest days as it's quite lucrative, but as it stands now, the fact that industrial relations within Northern are poor is hampering the day to day timetable provision. If they didn't exist, then everyone would be happy and this P code situation wouldnt actually exist

Strictly speaking it’s just a ban on rest day working (ie voluntary overtime). Therefore drivers will work what they’re given on rostered working days, which will often add up to more than 35 hours, as the working week is based around an average.

Therefore if you ended up with say 40 hours that week you’d work and be paid for the extra 5 despite the RDW ban