Say no more. Understood.
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ORR P-Code data releases.
- Thread starter YorkRailFan
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On the contrary, somebody is trying to build a new timetable every single day, a few hours before the event.
It should be done once, and last for 4 weeks plus. It has been done before, for similar reasons, many times.
YorkRailFan
On Moderation
Looking through the data, one can really see how staff shortages are impacting Northern in particular (but also TPE and LNER among others). I traveled with LNER during this period and had a delay of over three hours due to disruption caused by Storm Pia, my train was originally P-Coded and then reinstated, but LNER cancelled multiple services due to this disruption, infrastructure failures have definitely contributed to LNER's figures.
Snow1964
Established Member
It appears whilst not big P-Code user, Avanti isn't doing that well with 1 in 6 trains cancelled (16.7%) per figure 1
LNER with p-codes was not far behind at 16.2% cancelled
Nationally the average has gone up to dreadful 6.4% (figure 2), nearly double the rate at start of financial year
LNER with p-codes was not far behind at 16.2% cancelled
Nationally the average has gone up to dreadful 6.4% (figure 2), nearly double the rate at start of financial year
td97
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 Jul 2017
- Messages
- 1,300
The last few days have been affected by driver overtime bans on Northern and TPE. There is a huge contrast to the similar situation of overtime ban in Dec 23:
- Northern have reduced P-code cancellations from 150+ per day to around 40. Obviously promising progress, although less leave/holiday in January may be responsible. In fact some Northern services have been due to no guard rather than lack of drivers.
- Although TPE reduced their service in Dec 23, again there has not been a 20% cancellation meltdown that was typical only 6 months ago.
YorkRailFan
On Moderation
LNER had the most P-Coded services, due to staff shortages and infrastructure failures, TPE saw lower % of cancellations than Northern
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Now its OLR operators that are trying to game the system
Peterthegreat
Established Member
Funny that!
Snow1964
Established Member
Doesn't it say LNER was 244 trains P-coded (and 14 part canx) due to lack of rolling stock, rather than due to infrastructure. 36 were due to lack of staff.
However it splits 1 in 10 trains cancelled is bad, and 3 times the national average
LNER not helped by the Hitachi strike, which for several weeks resulted in multiple cancellations due to shortage of available stock.
Nail on the head
Whatever the reasons for P-coding, clearly the operators are deliberately P-coding to manipulate their performance figures
They, the regulators and gov all benefit with artificially enhanced reliability figures
Unfortunately, this isn’t addressing chronic underinvestment and isn’t addressing the reasons behind train cancellations
Smacks of A&E parking ambulances outside to stop the clock ticking on patient admissions
I despair of this country at times
TrainBoy98
Member
So long as the figure show "progress" that's all that matters! Reality doesn't come into it
Confused52
Member
- Joined
- 5 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 258
The National Rail site says "The Published Timetable of the Day will be available no later than 22:00 on the day before the changes happen."
So what would be the response if I asked for a copy of the "Published timetable"? I have no confidence that such a document actually exists. It is not available to download from National Rail!
So what would be the response if I asked for a copy of the "Published timetable"? I have no confidence that such a document actually exists. It is not available to download from National Rail!
YorkRailFan
On Moderation
Staff shortages make up a huge brunt of the P-Coded services, Northern P-Coded 599 services due to lack of available staff, LNER P-Coded 31 due to the same reason and 31 at TPE for the same reason. GC tops the list of P-Coded services once again. Avanti's P-Coded services have come down as well.
Snow1964
Established Member
Latest P-code cancellations have been published 19th April
There is also a table 3, a split by operator of cancellations for year (Apr 2023 - Mar 2024) including P-code
From best to worst :
C2C 1.4%
Anglia 1.6%
SouthEastern 2.1%
Hull trains 2.4%
Chiltern & Scotrail, both 2.5%
London Overground & Lumo, both 3.0%
Merseyrail 3.2%
SouthWest 3.4%
East Midlands, Heathrow Express, Caledonian sleeper, all 3.6%
Elizabeth line 4.1%
Thameslink and West Midlands, both 4.5%
Great Western 4.7%
Transport for Wales 6.1%
Avanti West Coast 6.9%
LNER 7.1%
Northern 7.2%
Cross Country 8.4%
TransPennine Express 10.8%
Grand Central 12.4%
There is also a table 3, a split by operator of cancellations for year (Apr 2023 - Mar 2024) including P-code
From best to worst :
C2C 1.4%
Anglia 1.6%
SouthEastern 2.1%
Hull trains 2.4%
Chiltern & Scotrail, both 2.5%
London Overground & Lumo, both 3.0%
Merseyrail 3.2%
SouthWest 3.4%
East Midlands, Heathrow Express, Caledonian sleeper, all 3.6%
Elizabeth line 4.1%
Thameslink and West Midlands, both 4.5%
Great Western 4.7%
Transport for Wales 6.1%
Avanti West Coast 6.9%
LNER 7.1%
Northern 7.2%
Cross Country 8.4%
TransPennine Express 10.8%
Grand Central 12.4%
Iskra
Established Member
To be fair, it shows a general improvement.
Maybe so.....but still grim. TPE and Northern cancelling 100s of services a week. Obviously the right thing to do in letting the passengers know as soon as possible, but still......
Not really an advert for encouraging pax to ditch the car
Bear in mind most operators will have legitimate reasons to P-code a small % of trains, especially when disruption spans multiple days. This can be seen in the stats, but the whole reason the ORR even looked into it and report on it now was the gross manipulation of it by certain TOCs.
The numbers in @Snow1964 are the adjusted cancelletion rates (I.e. including P-codes) and for some operators, there’s none to report, so no difference (e.g. Southeastern, CrossCountry, Elizabeth line)
The numbers in @Snow1964 are the adjusted cancelletion rates (I.e. including P-codes) and for some operators, there’s none to report, so no difference (e.g. Southeastern, CrossCountry, Elizabeth line)
Snow1964
Established Member
.... from a dreadful start position.
But if some operators can manage to run over 98% of their services, why are a select few so useless at running trains to a published timetable, when they had input in formulating the timetable, or it has hardly changed in a decade. It's not new unproven timetables
Staffing issues......which has been done to death on here. Until the general climate of industrial relationships improve dramatically, then this will continue until further notice. It's that simple.
Indeed. Most reasons that would be known about in advance other than shortage of trains or train crew would be legitimate. But the ORR isn't reporting those in their adjustments so I'm not sure it's really relevant here?
Snow1964
Established Member
General Climate, that is a new excuse for cancellations
As for staff issues that is HR and Leadership failings
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They're still p-coding trains of course. Just only doing it legitimately. The rest are trying to pull the wool over our eyes.
Where did I mention staff quality?
And in case you haven't noticed, there has been some significant industrial relations issues all over the UK rail network for a good while now.....shows no sign of abating either. I suspect we will still be having these well into 2025 or beyond
Msq71423
Member
The figures quoted above in post 44 are year to date for the full year. Looking at the period 13 figures alone though we have
AWC 6.6% (annual figure 6.9%)
LNER 5.3% (7.1%)
Northern 4.1% (7.2%)
TPE 2.8% (10.8%)
TfW 2.7% (6.1%)
Hull Trains 1.9% (2.4%)
Lumo 1.7% (3%)
Scotrail 1.4% (2.5%)
So significant improvements all round, particularly for TPE in P13 compared to the annual average figure.
AWC 6.6% (annual figure 6.9%)
LNER 5.3% (7.1%)
Northern 4.1% (7.2%)
TPE 2.8% (10.8%)
TfW 2.7% (6.1%)
Hull Trains 1.9% (2.4%)
Lumo 1.7% (3%)
Scotrail 1.4% (2.5%)
So significant improvements all round, particularly for TPE in P13 compared to the annual average figure.
Comparing period figures to the annual ones may be misleading. It may be the case that things are indeed improving, but it may also be the case that seasonal variations (leaf fall or winter weather for example) result in routinely poorer performance at certain times of year. The best way to compare is to compare equivalent periods from different years.