Out of the "go anywhere do anything" engines of The Big 4 + a few extras, which one was better at different things?

[Threepea51]

I know the Black 5 is generally considered the best out of them, but I wanted to ask/create a discussion about these "go anywhere do anything" locomotives from each of the Big 4 plus a couple extras. These are the following that I had in mind

Main List
LMS Stanier Class 5 4-6-0 'Black Fives'
LNER Thompson Class B1
GWR 4900 & 6959 'Hall' Classes
LSWR/SR H15 Class

Extras
BR Standard Class 5 5MTs
LNER Gresley Class V4s


For context, here are each of their main specs

LMS Stanier Black 5s (Main Batch)
Driver Dia. - 6ft 0in
Water cap. - 4000 imp gallons
Loco Weight - 72.1 to 75 long tons
Axle Load - 17.9 long tons
Boiler Pressure - 225 lbf/in, superheated
Cylinders - Two 18.5in x 28in
Valve Gear - Walschaerts
Tractive Effort - 25,455 lbf

LNER Thompson B1s
Driver Dia. - 6ft 2in
Water cap. - 4000 imp gallons
Loco Weight - 71 long tons
Axle Load - 17 long tons
Boiler Pressure - 225 lbf/in, superheated
Cylinders - Two 20in x 26in
Valve Gear - Walschaerts
Tractive Effort - 26,878 lbf

GWR 4900 & 6959 Halls
Driver Dia. - 6ft 0in
Water cap. - 3500 or 4000 imp gallons
Loco Weight - 75 long tons
Axle Load - 18 long tons; 19 long tons
Boiler Pressure - 225 lbf/in, superheated
Cylinders - Two 18.5in x 30in
Valve Gear - Stephenson
Tractive Effort - 27,278 lbf

LSWR/SR H15s
Driver Dia. - 6ft 0in
Water cap. - 3500 or 4000 imp gallons
Loco Weight - 75 long tons
Boiler Pressure - 225 lbf/in, superheated
Cylinders - Two 18.5in x 30in
Valve Gear - Stephenson
Tractive Effort - 27,278 lbf

BR Standard 5s
Driver Dia. - 6ft 2in
Water cap. - 4250 to 5625 imp gallons
Loco Weight - 76 long tons
Boiler Pressure - 225 lbf/in, superheated
Cylinders - Two 19in x 28in
Valve Gear - Walschaerts
Tractive Effort - 26,124 lbf

LNER V4s
Driver Dia. - 5ft 8in
Water cap. - 3500 or 4000 imp gallons
Loco Weight - 70.4 long tons
Axle Load - 17 long tons
Boiler Pressure - 250 lbf/in, superheated
Cylinders - Three 15in x 26in
Valve Gear - Walschaerts/Gresley Conjugated
Tractive Effort - 27,420 lbf

 

[Sun Chariot]

Gresley's V4 pair, although slightly lighter than his V2s, were more complex machinery than Thompson's B1. Peppercorn's K1 was simple and successful, albeit with a heavier axle load than the B1 and V4.

My submission: Ivatt's "Mucky Duck" or "Flying Pig" (4)3000 class 4MT 2-6-0. A light axle load (they were allowed over the frail Belah and Deepdale viaducts; the K1, B1 and Black 5 were not), they were rugged, running gear easy to access for shed maintenance.

 

[Threepea51]

Gresley's V4 pair, although slightly lighter than his V2s, were more complex machinery than Thompson's B1. Peppercorn's K1 was simple and successful, albeit with a heavier axle load than the K4.

My submission: Ivatt's "Mucky Duck" or "Flying Pig" (4)3000 class 4MT 2-6-0. A light axle load (they were allowed over the frail Belah and Deepdale viaducts; the K1, B1 and Black 5 were not), they were rugged, running gear easy to access for shed maintenance.

Interesting, I never knew that they weren't allowed over them.

 

[Gloster]

For the Southern I would reckon on the Class N or even the V/Schools, although there weren’t that many of the latter. But the Southern was less in need of locos for long-haul expresses than the other three.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Class 4 2-6-4T?

 

[mcmad]

class 37

 

[Sun Chariot]

class 37

And which of the Big Four steam railway companies introduced it?

 

[hexagon789]

And which of the Big Four steam railway companies introduced it?

The LMS with 10000/10001!

 

[Sun Chariot]

The LMS with 10000/10001!

Very good I think Ivatt wouldn't get royalties from EE though.
The Ivatt/LMS-designed twins were weighty creatures: 129t - 132t. Definitely not the "go anywhere" carte blanche.

 

[Threepea51]

For the Southern I would reckon on the Class N or even the V/Schools, although there weren’t that many of the latter. But the Southern was less in need of locos for long-haul expresses than the other three.

The Class N I can kinda see, however I was mostly going for mixed traffic type engines, I don't think the Schools would be ideal for goods lol

 

[AndrewE]

[BR Standard] Class 4 2-6-4T?

Good call, that would get my vote.
An exceptional heritage too: [Fowler]/Stanier/Fairburn/Riddles... No wonder they were some of the best!

 

[hexagon789]

Very good I think Ivatt wouldn't get royalties from EE though.
The Ivatt/LMS-designed twins were weighty creatures: 129t - 132t. Definitely not the "go anywhere" carte blanche.

No, though many steam locos are a not dissimilar weight.

 

[Sun Chariot]

No, though many steam locos are a not dissimilar weight.

They do tend to spread the load across more axles, loco and tender.
Hammer blow, plus unbalanced reciprocal masses, would of course add a notional load back on.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

The H15 had an axle-load of 19T 16c. When new their tenders held 7 tons of coal and 5,200 gallons of water. Hammer blow was on the high side until rebalanced by the SR.
Pat

 

[Threepea51]

What about the 6MT Clans? If they actually got the double kylchap or a regular double chimney, how good could they have been?

 

[Magdalia]

I know the Black 5 is generally considered the best out of them, but I wanted to ask/create a discussion about these "go anywhere do anything" locomotives from each of the Big 4 plus a couple extras.

I do a lot of historical research on the period of transition from steam to diesel traction, but I'm not old enough to remember steam. I think this is an excellent question, but, on the basis of my research, I'd confine the discussion to these:

Main List
LMS Stanier Class 5 4-6-0 'Black Fives'
LNER Thompson Class B1
GWR 4900 & 6959 'Hall' Classes
BR Standard Class 5 5MTs

which are all what I think of as "go (almost) anywhere do (almost) anything" locos. I don't know enough about LNER V4s to say the same.

The H15 had an axle-load of 19T 16c.

I'd say that with that axle load the H15 clearly does not qualify. There are lots of places that can't go.

My submission: Ivatt's "Mucky Duck" or "Flying Pig" (4)3000 class 4MT 2-6-0.

Class 4 2-6-4T?

Whatever the merits of these there are lots of things that they couldn't do, like haul a 10 car main line express or a fast fitted freight.

class 37

I like this answer, even though it is obviously wrong in a literal sense. One of the big flaws of the Modernisation Plan pilot scheme is that it did not provide an adequate replacement for the "go anywhere do anything" locos.

And which of the Big Four steam railway companies introduced it?

The London and North Eastern Railway, in the form of its successors, introduced the English Electric Type 3. The first 119 locos were all Eastern Region or North Eastern Region. With a bit of imagination, this can be linked back to the LNER proposal for 25 diesel locos in 1947 that reached the tender stage but was not taken forward after Nationalisation.

 

[Sun Chariot]

"go (almost) anywhere do (almost) anything" locos.

It's an interesting point and it will wonderfully lead this thread into an enthusiastic debate, over people's subjective opinions on what's "in" or "out".

Purely by way of illustration:
Thompson's B1 had a tractive effort of 26,878lb and an axle load of 17t 15cwt max.
Peppercorn's K1 had a tractive effort of 31,081lb and an axle load of 19t 4cwt max.
B1s had notoriously inefficient brakes and they were refused by some Scottish crews for freights, unless trains fully fitted.
So - which is the better? How is "better" actually quantified?

 

[Magdalia]

Thompson's B1 had a tractive effort of 26,878lb and an axle load of 17t 15cwt max.
Peppercorn's K1 had a tractive effort of 31,081lb and an axle load of 19t 4cwt max.
Which is the better? How is "better" actually quantified?

The K1 doesn't qualify. With that axle load it can't go almost anywhere.

I take as my guide the Modernisation Plan pilot scheme, which required Type 2s to have an axle load below 18 tons to be able to go almost anywhere.

 

[Threepea51]

Even then, I feel like the English Electric Type 3 is a bit underpowered compared to the Black 5s and B1s, but maybe that's just me

 

[AndrewE]

Even then, I feel like the English Electric Type 3 is a bit underpowered compared to the Black 5s and B1s, but maybe that's just me

the thing is that a steam engine (adhesion permitting) can apply full boiler pressure to the pistons for their whole travel on starting, whereas a diesel of that era can only supply as much current to the traction motors as will avoid overheating them - not a lot as a proportion of the maximum power, as that can't be applied until the back-EMF has built up to limit the current flow.

Hence the diesel driving technique of winding up the engine revs until the amps are at the max allowed, waiting for them to fall as the speed rises then increasing the engine speed again. and again. and again. You get to full power eventually...

 

[Rescars]

Wasn't "go anywhere do anything" the ambition behind Bulleid's Leader?

 

[Bevan Price]

The GWR Halls were competent, capable of good performances, but due to the width over the cylinders meant they were too wide to "go anywhere".
Otherwise there was little to choose between Halls, Stanier & BR 5MT 4-6-0s. I had less experience with LNER B1s, but I recall that people thought they were OK, but maybe not quite as good as Black 5s. I had even less experience with Southern 4-6-0s, but I believe the N15 (King Arthurs) were better regarded than the H15s for passenger work.

I never rode behind a BR Clan 4-6-2, but they had a mixed reputation. Some said they could be pretty dire, others thought they were better than "their reputation".

 

[Harvester]

I never rode behind a BR Clan 4-6-2, but they had a mixed reputation. Some said they could be pretty dire, others thought they were better than "their reputation".

72009 didn’t last long at Stratford after it was sent there in September 1958 for testing on some of the Britannia diagrams. It was unable to keep time on the Liverpool St-Norwich workings, and was sent back to Kingmoor after just over a month, to the irritation of the LMR authorities who wanted to swap their 5 Clans for ER Britannias. Whether the fitting of Kylchap exhausts would have improved steaming, and performance, is open to debate!

 

[Harpo]

Hence the diesel electric driving technique of winding up the engine revs until the amps are at the max allowed, waiting for them to fall as the speed rises then increasing the engine speed again. and again. and again. You get to full power eventually...

Not so for hydraulics.

4MT 2-6-4 tanks with load 12 commuter workings outperformed the MBD engined Brush type 2s on load 8.

Similarly, 40s could not match class 8 steam locos. However, after the steam age single BR diesels shifted four figure tonnages that manually fired steam would never have sustained over distance.

 

[The Crab]

class 37

Language!

 

[AndrewE]

Not so for hydraulics.

[/QUOTE]

fair point, I never had experience of hydraulics and tend to overlook them.

4MT 2-6-4 tanks with load 12 commuter workings outperformed the MBD engined Brush type 2s on load 8.

Similarly, 40s could not match class 8 steam locos. However, after the steam age single BR diesels shifted four figure tonnages that manually fired steam would never have sustained over distance.

I definitely like big tank engines...

The Germans seemed to move big trains with steam locos, or are the recent "show" trains just one-offs? It shows it can be done though. Maybe not over a distance or at a useful speed..

 

[70014IronDuke]

A few thoughts:

Class V Schools - not designed as mixed traffic, but express passenger. 3 Cylinders = exp to maintain. No relevant to thread, IMO.
Gresley V4s - surely were a passenger tank loco, 3-cylinders, expensive. Ditto above. I liked their aesthetics, but I strongly suspect post war BR preferred the cheaper LMS 2-6-4T rival - hence the 80xxx standards.

H-15s? I don't think so. The SR was a bit of an odd one out here. I think they didn't really have a Cl 5 MT in the class of the Hall, Black 5 or B1.
I'd say the U and N were the closest equivalent (if relatively underpowered compared to the 5s) - and the S15 was kind of comparable in the other direction, even though it was officially a freight loco.

The Halls had a good reputation for fast running on the GWR, I'm not sure if that was part of the GWR 'glamour' PR - that is to say, I don't know if they were any better than a Black 5 or B1 for faster running.
On maintenance costs, that would be an interesting comparison - but I suspect they were all pretty close.

On the Black 5 vs B1 (I think I've written this previously): Sometime in the mid-60s, our school railway society had a guest speaker. He was a fireman originally based at Aylesbury LNW sub shed, who then transferred to the GC when that shed closed. I remember two things from that talk:

1) He had fired both B1s and Black 5s on GC duties. He said that on lighter duties, there was no difference, but that on heavier trains - he may have mentioned 8-9 coach loads or so - the Black 5 had significantly better haulage power.

2) When working the Aylesbury - Cheddington branch, crews would not infrequently stop to pick up a dead pheasant hit by a train to take home for supper

 

[Tetragon213]

I would like to argue for the inclusion of the Bulleid Light Pacifics (aka the Battle of Britain/West Country class). They were as perfectly happy hauling the milk trains etc from the West Country as they were hauling the Atlantic Coast Express, and were able to run most of Southern's Withered Arm services into North Devon and Cornwall.

I'm always going to be massively biased here as 34046 Braunton was the first Steam Loco I remember seeing puffing away, but I do think the Light Pacifics at least deserve a footnote here.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I would like to argue for the inclusion of the Bulleid Light Pacifics (aka the Battle of Britain/West Country class). They were as perfectly happy hauling the milk trains etc from the West Country as they were hauling the Atlantic Coast Express, and were able to run most of Southern's Withered Arm services into North Devon and Cornwall.

I'm always going to be massively biased here as 34046 Braunton was the first Steam Loco I remember seeing puffing away, but I do think the Light Pacifics at least deserve a footnote here.

They certainly had a favourable axle load and, on the flat, put in a good turn of speed with heavy loads.
Their tendency to slip upon starting and up hills, leads me to think they face a challenge on this remit of "go anywhere, do anything".

I like them, I'll admit. Tangmere put in a fine performance up Folkestone Harbour branch's 1 in 30 in January 2009. 10 on, with a 47 shoving very hard at the back; but 34067 sent up a volcanic exhaust.
Oliver Cromwell, 2 months later, arguably took the same load a little more easily up the same climb.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I would like to argue for the inclusion of the Bulleid Light Pacifics (aka the Battle of Britain/West Country class). They were as perfectly happy hauling the milk trains etc from the West Country as they were hauling the Atlantic Coast Express, and were able to run most of Southern's Withered Arm services into North Devon and Cornwall.

Ah, the light pacifics. Not sure of the RA rating, but indeed, they went across west country branches.

That is, when they went.

The trouble is, they didn't went enough.
Alas, their aesthetic beauty was inversely proportional to their availability for revenue-earning service.
Plus they had a death wish through self-immolation.

I'm always going to be massively biased here as 34046 Braunton was the first Steam Loco I remember seeing puffing away, but I do think the Light Pacifics at least deserve a footnote here.

Heart over head, I fear. There was a very good reason why more than half the class was rebuilt after a dozen or so years of service - and this at a time when BR modernisation was already underway.