Overcrowding meant missed advanced ticket 'slot'

[keefc]

(Posting on behalf my son...feel my family is having run of bad luck at the moment.)

The details:
- He used TrainSplit
- He was actually kicked off the first train of his journey to alleviate overcrowding after boarding. (This was not an advance ticket.)
- He missed his connection
- That meant he missed the train he did have an advance ticket on.
- He was forced to buy another ticket.

Questions:
- Is this just a hazard of the system and just tough?
- If not, who does he get his money back from?
- Should he have done anything different?

Thanks,

Keith
-

 

[yorkie]

He was treated wrongly. What companies were involved, what was the original itinerary and what trains did he actually take? What tickets were issued originally and subsequently?

The refund would be from the train company who charged him

If he also was delayed by a qualifying period (this varies by train company) he can additionally claim Delay Repay compensation from the relevant company.

 

[najaB]

Is this just a hazard of the system and just tough?

No. It definitely is not. By paying for his ticket he entered into a contract for transportation. The Train Operating Company (TOC) cannot unilaterally break that contract to his detriment. The fact that he was using a combination of tickets doesn't change that, though it might complicate matters slightly if there's more than one TOC involved (see next point).

If not, who does he get his money back from?

In the first instance it should be the TOC that charged him for a second ticket as they should not have done that. They might make the argument that, (using a dodgy interpretation of the rules) he was in violation of the T&Cs of the advance ticket* and attempt to refer him to the first TOC.

They should not do this but, if they dig their heels in, it may be easier to go to the first TOC rather than fight it since it was their train that was overcrowded and their agent who asked/told your son to leave the train.

Should he have done anything different?

The only thing he could have done differently was to make sure that the guard/train manager of the first train was fully aware that he had a connection to a train for which he only held an Advance ticket. Depending on the circumstances they might have allowed him to remain on board. I appreciate that might not have been an option though.

*We've had discussion of the exact meaning of "...if delays occur while travelling..."

 

[JBuchananGB]

When he missed the train on which his Advance ticket was booked he was entitled to travel on the next available service with the same train operator; if he did that, he didn't need a new ticket, and should request it be refunded.
If or some reason he travelled on a train of a different train operator, then it is likely that a new ticket would have been required.

 

[najaB]

If or some reason he travelled on a train of a different train operator, then it is likely that a new ticket would have been required.

That is also a consideration, thanks for the reminder that there may be a third TOC involved.

 

[AnkleBoots]

actually kicked off the first train

This is alarming - was it by a uniformed member of staff?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is alarming - was it by a uniformed member of staff?

Sometimes it is necessary to ask some people to leave overcrowded trains for safety reasons. I suspect the "kicked off" was not literal.

In such cases the passenger is entitled to use the next train of the same TOC on an Advance, and to claim Delay Repay for the complete journey, same as if they couldn't board in the first place. Whether it's one ticket or a set of split tickets makes no difference whatsoever.

If overnight stranding would result, any TOC which reasonably can is required to help, so that restriction would be waived.

(Was the train for which the passenger was charged a different TOC perchance?)

 

[keefc]

OP here. I don't have access to the details because my son communicates on a need to know basis...but...he wasn't physically kicked off of course. But was asked politely leave to alleviate overcrowding. Which is fair enough if inconvenient.

The advance ticket on the second train was with a different TOC. My understanding of the above is that they should have allowed him to use his ticket on their next service (although this raises a question of how you distinguish genuine cases from those who didn't get out of bed in time).

I also gather that if he'd used a third TOC to do his second journey, he would've had to buy another ticket.

But correct me if wrong.

He told me briefly that the second company did understand at the second time of asking and that he should get a refund.

 

[gray1404]

Perhaps you could get the full information from your son and post back. The train companies involved, his original itinerary and trains did he actually take? What tickets he purchased on Trainsplit and the additional ticket(s) purchased.

 

[NewSt]

I would most certainly recommend getting in touch with the TOCs. When a similar problem occured on one of my journeys and I went to the ticket office, the booking clerk correctly informed me that I was allowed to travel on the next available service, even though this was another TOC as there was not another service on the original TOC for the rest of that day. It was completely wrong for them to charge him again, probably a result of a lack of staff training and overall competence so you should be able to claim this back.

 

[yorkie]

I also gather that if he'd used a third TOC to do his second journey, he would've had to buy another ticket.

A separate journey is a separate matter indeed but I can assure you that multiple tickets are valid for one journey.

The fact that he has a through itinerary for the whole journey, detailing exactly which trains to get, and which tickets to use, is good evidence of the contract for the overall journey, from origin through to destination.

People can book any combination of tickets they wish and can buy tickets individually, all to form one journey, but evidencing this is all one contract can be a time consuming process, but the fact he has a booking confirmation email with everything detailed makes it much easier.

He told me briefly that the second company did understand at the second time of asking and that he should get a refund.

I'm glad to hear it!

If the company had refused to refund the ticket, I would have said to refer the matter to the Rail Ombudsman and also to Trainsplit/Raileasy (the owners are members of this forum); I am certain they would have assisted.

How delayed was the journey in the end? He may be entitled to Delay Repay compensation from the TOC who caused the delay.

 

[keefc]

Thanks as ever. I don't have all the details and as he lives away I just have drips of info. I am not sure the details matter much as the 'one journey' point holds here.

He went to football in Sunderland from Leeds. The delay was on the return. I guess too many people trying to get back (to Coventry) meant people were asked to leave the train. He then missed his connection to Leeds (final destination). That was probably from York I guess. He had an end-to-end booking.

But he was ready and able to travel to his itinerary which seems pertinent here. Even if he gets money back now, the frustration is that he needs to ask of course.

 

[keefc]

I would most certainly recommend getting in touch with the TOCs. When a similar problem occured on one of my journeys and I went to the ticket office, the booking clerk correctly informed me that I was allowed to travel on the next available service, even though this was another TOC as there was not another service on the original TOC for the rest of that day. It was completely wrong for them to charge him again, probably a result of a lack of staff training and overall competence so you should be able to claim this back.

Thank you for clarifying the other TOC part. I am now wondering on what grounds he was asked to pay again. Perhaps the word of young male football supporters is not trusted...

 

[yorkie]

Thank you for clarifying the other TOC part. I am now wondering on what grounds he was asked to pay again. Perhaps the word of young male football supporters is not trusted...

There is no grounds whatsoever.

It's just that some people are not good at (customer-facing aspects of) their jobs and some industries have insufficient safeguards in place to avoid customers being mistreated.

The good news is that I can assure you that through this forum we have the contacts that would have resolved this particular issue if it came to it.

Of course it should never happen but the necessary safeguards are not going to be put in place by the TOCs willingly so people will continue to be mistreated.

It's a small proportion of journeys that are affected by incorrect charging, but it is also an infinitely higher number of cases than would be the case if all staff behaved correctly, and I become aware of cases on a pretty much daily basis.