Overcrowding on Chiltern Line: How can this be resolved?

[RPM]

I don't suppose it helps that the 68+mk3s are not nearly used enough..

There is a limit as to how many 68-hauled trains are allowed to use Marylebone each day, owing to noise issues. I don't know what the exact permitted number is but it isn't much higher than the current workings allow.

 

[12LDA28C]

I don't think Chiltern runs different diagrams M-Th vs Fri, which they could perhaps consider given how Friday is more of a leisure day now?

They do. They run MO diagrams, T-ThO diagrams and FO diagrams during the week.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It's more that I don't understand why any of the "route High Wycombe" fares are regulated, as all of these were introduced commercially as competition for the WCML post privatisation. The regulated fare should be the Any Permitted Off Peak in this case.

The Any Permitted Off-Peak is regulated as well, but none of the LNR/WMR walk-up fares between Birmingham and London appear to be.

Doing some digging, the via High Wycombe Off-Peak existed at NFM64, but via Northampton only had Seasons, which may explain them being regulated.

It doesn't explain why the regulated fare switched to the Super Off-Peak though.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Having been back on Chiltern for a couple of years now I actually think until they can get more stock they need to stop serving stations Chalfort & Latimer to Marylebone inclusive as well as some other inner London calls e.g. Northolt Park. This would allow a reduction in via Amersham services at peak times, shorter trains to run off peak/weekends and potentially allow cancelling the West Ruislip peak time short workings, freeing up that stock to strengthen other trains. Based on my observations the Metropolitan and Central lines just are not as busy as they used to be pre covid and could absorb the demand.

Based on my observations the Chilterns over the Met, and peak-time Met line services - are pretty much back to pre-Covid levels of crowding - they need all the stock they can get on both lines. If any services were going to be cut it would actually now be the ones which run non-stop to Amersham or Missenden as these are easily the quietest (and often run as 2-car as a result), but they also form crucial positioning back-workings from Aylesbury.

The off-peak reductions to Chiltern services over the Met are also now starting to cause challenges. 1tph adds up to a lot.

 

[67018]

Based on my observations the Chilterns over the Met, and peak-time Met line services - are pretty much back to pre-Covid levels of crowding - they need all the stock they can get on both lines. If any services were going to be cut it would actually now be the ones which run non-stop to Amersham or Missenden as these are easily the quietest (and often run as 2-car as a result), but they also form crucial positioning back-workings from Aylesbury.

The off-peak reductions to Chiltern services over the Met are also now starting to cause challenges. 1tph adds up to a lot.

My observations are very similar. Chiltern was heading for a capacity crunch before the pandemic bought a few years, but with demand bouncing back the same problems have just come back with simply not enough stock to meet demand. And the changing peal/off peak balance doesn't fit with capacity and the fares structure - the first off peak train into London is regularly packed.

Birmingham trains now seem to be routinely full and standing to Bicester or Banbury, not just in the peaks but well into the evenings. The Evergreen 3 speed improvements have been largely eliminated by slower timetables/more stops and the need to get to Marylebone 20 minutes before departure if you don't want to stand. Overall not a great experience and I'm sure there are plenty of people who are working from home as much as possible to avoid not just the cost but the sheer unpleasant experience of the journey. (These days, the onward Tube journey from Marylebone is more pleasant - and you're more likely to get a seat - than the Chiltern leg).

As for leisure travel, forget it - these days it's the car all the way. Which, unlike Chiltern, is electrified!

 

[wls1]

I noticed that the gov hasn't released the list top 10 of busiest trains in the UK for 2022, unlike they did before C-19 however they were still releasing the crowding at stations publications.

I FOI'ed them and it turns out they did make the list for 2022 however it was never published.

Chiltern had the busiest train in the UK in 2022, along with numbers 3, 4 & 8

1. 17:47 London Marylebone to Birmingham Snow Hill (Chiltern Railways) Passengers on this service, formed of 4 carriages, were counted only once during the period. The service was busiest on departure from London Marylebone, where a load factor of 180% was recorded. This service is now run with 5 carriages, providing 56 additional seats.

3. 07:39 Princes Risborough to London Marylebone (Chiltern Railways) Passengers on this service were counted only once during the period. The service was busiest on arrival at London Marylebone, where a load factor of 162% was recorded. Two additional peak services from Gerard’s Cross have been introduced since the count period, relieving this service.

4. 06:43 Oxford to London Marylebone (Chiltern Railways) Passengers on this service, formed of 6 carriages, were counted only once during the period. The service was busiest on arrival at London Marylebone, where a load factor of 158% was recorded. This service is now run with 8 carriages, providing 132 additional seats.

8. 06:33 Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone (Chiltern Railways) Passengers on this service, formed of 4 carriages, were counted only once during the period. The service was busiest on arrival at London Marylebone, where a load factor of 154% was recorded. This service is now running with 80 additional seats.

I probably won't link the full document here as it has my full name in, however it should be on WhatDoTheyKnow somewhere.

 

[Kite159]

My observations are very similar. Chiltern was heading for a capacity crunch before the pandemic bought a few years, but with demand bouncing back the same problems have just come back with simply not enough stock to meet demand. And the changing peal/off peak balance doesn't fit with capacity and the fares structure - the first off peak train into London is regularly packed.

Birmingham trains now seem to be routinely full and standing to Bicester or Banbury, not just in the peaks but well into the evenings. The Evergreen 3 speed improvements have been largely eliminated by slower timetables/more stops and the need to get to Marylebone 20 minutes before departure if you don't want to stand. Overall not a great experience and I'm sure there are plenty of people who are working from home as much as possible to avoid not just the cost but the sheer unpleasant experience of the journey. (These days, the onward Tube journey from Marylebone is more pleasant - and you're more likely to get a seat - than the Chiltern leg).

As for leisure travel, forget it - these days it's the car all the way. Which, unlike Chiltern, is electrified!

And doesn't help that compared to pre Covid, Chiltern have lost the 4x 172s and use the loco hauled sets less.

Birmingham trains suffer from having to pick up the stops previously served by the London - Banbury stopper.

At least last Saturday when on the railtour to the Banbury area most of the Chiltern trains I saw were paired up (although that does have the issue when starting at Moor Street that the rear unit fills up first due to the inability of some passengers to see beyond the first set of doors). At least when they start at Snow Hill they loaded from the front and was more spread out on P1 at Moor Street.

 

[12LDA28C]

And doesn't help that compared to pre Covid, Chiltern have lost the 4x 172s and use the loco hauled sets less.

Not forgetting of course the slam-door hauled set which has since been scrapped.

 

[Adam Williams]

There is a limit as to how many 68-hauled trains are allowed to use Marylebone each day, owing to noise issues. I don't know what the exact permitted number is but it isn't much higher than the current workings allow.

I think the people who live near Marylebone need to grow up a bit!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the people who live near Marylebone need to grow up a bit!

I don't. As noted in the 68 thread these locomotives are seriously noisy - more so than anything that has ever been seen in the UK before or since. They're an awful piece of design and the complaints are totally valid.

I assume you've never stood next to one on fast idle?

 

[philosopher]

I don't. As noted in the 68 thread these locomotives are seriously noisy - more so than anything that has ever been seen in the UK before or since. They're an awful piece of design and the complaints are totally valid.

I assume you've never stood next to one on fast idle?

Why can’t Chiltern use a different quieter loco, so they can use their loco hauled sets more frequently without attracting complaints?

 

[Adam Williams]

I assume you've never stood next to one on fast idle?

Many times.

Sometimes in society we need to prioritise the greater good (capacity, public transport) over people who chose to live next to a central London terminus (or airport, for a more noisy comparison) long after it started being operational. Given the current status quo and state of the DfT, my sympathies lie with the passengers. Would it be nice if we had the staff to drive and funds to buy lots of new shiny stock so that I never had to board a rammed 3 carriage 168 again? Absolutely, but it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Planning authorities have their bit to do, too. There's no reason that stands up to any scrutiny to prevent freeholders or leaseholders from installing double glazing when we have a serious global problem with emissions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many times.

Surprised you don't realise how bad they are then.

Sometimes in society we need to prioritise the greater good (capacity, public transport) over people who chose to live next to a central London terminus (or airport, for a more noisy comparison) long after it started being operational.

It's seen nothing but the fairly quiet 67s and DMUs for the last 40 odd years.

Planning authorities have their bit to do, too. There's no reason that stands up to any scrutiny to prevent freeholders or leaseholders from installing double glazing when we have a serious global problem with emissions.

Double glazing will do nothing for these. They are seriously loud and shake the ground. Fun for enthusiasts but I am in complete support of those who consider them a noise blight. They should never have been built given how bad they are; that the design was utterly flawed should have been clear the moment the first prototype was fired up.

 

[Taunton]

I think the people who live near Marylebone need to grow up a bit!

If they are not careful Chiltern will be getting a legal injunction banning the locomotives altogether. Their racket is like nothing previously experienced at Marylebone. It has already got up to their Member of Parliament.

Part of this is standing the locos, "idling" extensively, right underneath the windows of the flats which border both sides of the line at the Marylebone station throat. Quite why, with modern power electronics, it is necessary to idle at high rpm just to provide aircon and lighting, as opposed to traction, is not apparent. Is part of the reason why they are put at the northern end of formations because, if they idled against the buffers, the noise in the station would be intolerable?

 

[12LDA28C]

Why can’t Chiltern use a different quieter loco, so they can use their loco hauled sets more frequently without attracting complaints?

What locos would you suggest? That are 100mph capable, have ETS, are cleared for the route and are available?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of this is standing the locos, "idling" extensively, right underneath the windows of the flats which border both sides of the line at the Marylebone station throat. Quite why, with modern power electronics, it is necessary to idle at high rpm just to provide aircon and lighting, as opposed to traction, is not apparent. Is part of the reason why they are put at the northern end of formations because, if they idled against the buffers, the noise in the station would be intolerable?

It's usual to put locos at the country end so as to avoid filling the trainshed with fumes, though the DMUs do that quite well now anyway.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Is part of the reason why they are put at the northern end of formations because, if they idled against the buffers, the noise in the station would be intolerable?

Partly that, and partly to avoid having the exhaust gases drifting across the gateline area and concourse.

 

[12LDA28C]

If they are not careful Chiltern will be getting a legal injunction banning the locomotives altogether. Their racket is like nothing previously experienced at Marylebone. It has already got up to their Member of Parliament.

Part of this is standing the locos, "idling" extensively, right underneath the windows of the flats which border both sides of the line at the Marylebone station throat. Quite why, with modern power electronics, it is necessary to idle at high rpm just to provide aircon and lighting, as opposed to traction, is not apparent. Is part of the reason why they are put at the northern end of formations because, if they idled against the buffers, the noise in the station would be intolerable?

Do Chiltern stand the locos for long periods 'idling' extensively then? Or are you just assuming that happens? Have you actually witnessed this yourself?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do Chiltern stand the locos for long periods 'idling' extensively then?

They are so loud that a few minutes is excessive.

 

[12LDA28C]

They are so loud that a few minutes is excessive.

So you keep saying, ad nauseum. The fact is that Chiltern don't leave them idling and shut them down after arrival, only restarting just a few minutes prior to departure so not 'left idling extensively'.

 

[Adam Williams]

They should never have been built given how bad they are; that the design was utterly flawed should have been clear the moment the first prototype was fired up.

I don't disagree they're not ideal in some ways, but they were built. So we can either be pragmatic and make the best of the hand that's been dealt by the DfT, or continue not to prioritise capacity.

It was only a week ago that I was on a 168 where a passenger had a panic attack because she couldn't cope with how crammed it was. I do think a proportion of people will just give up and drive.

Yesterday evening I was in greater London to see a comedy show. RTT suggests that the last train out of Marylebone back to Warks yesterday was a 2 car; I genuinely dread to think what that was like on-board. I chose to drive on this occasion because over the Christmas period I've found it's gotten uncomfortably busy. Despite avoiding Chiltern, I tried to use rail! I drove to MK, and discovered quite quickly that the WCML was completely screwed so gave up on that and ended up straight back on the M1. 160 mile round-trip in the end.

You do not want tons of people doing this in combustion engine cars, it's just daft. These motorways already struggle with congestion as it is.

Do Chiltern stand the locos for long periods 'idling' extensively then?

I'm sure a rhetorical question , but no, they really don't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't disagree they're not ideal in some ways, but they were built. So we can either be pragmatic and make the best of the hand that's been dealt by the DfT, or continue not to prioritise capacity.

The real fix would be for Avanti to stop pricing themselves out of the market. Fast trains are the cheapest way to provide capacity (hence HS2) as the rolling stock and staff requirement is minimised. Avanti doing that is resulting in their trains being nearly empty and Chiltern and LNR being overcrowded.

 

[CastlebarKeith]

I think Marylebone has the shortest-length (on average) main line departures from any London terminus.

l think you are right now

But formerly it WAS the Paddington - Greenford service with a single, class 121 railcar

 

[Sunil_P]

l think you are right now

But formerly it WAS the Paddington - Greenford service with a single, class 121 railcar

Minimum service level!

But had a look at the new London Rail and Tube map (big one which shows everything), which I'm happy to say shows the new Brent Cross West, but noticed it shows a "rare" service off the Greenford branch towards Ealing Broadway.

 

[Kite159]

Minimum service level!

But had a look at the new London Rail and Tube map (big one which shows everything), which I'm happy to say shows the new Brent Cross West, but noticed it shows a "rare" service off the Greenford branch towards Ealing Broadway.

That would be the first & last trains from Greenford which run from/to Paddington (2G02 0544 London Paddington to Greenford & 2G65 2203 Greenford to London Paddington). If you want 2 coach units out of London, then in the days before Covid there has been a booked single 158 from Waterloo [20:50 Waterloo - Salisbury]

The real fix would be for Avanti to stop pricing themselves out of the market. Fast trains are the cheapest way to provide capacity (hence HS2) as the rolling stock and staff requirement is minimised. Avanti doing that is resulting in their trains being nearly empty and Chiltern and LNR being overcrowded.

But we all know the railway, they will quickly axe the 'cheap' flexible tickets for LNR only (and "Via High Wycombe") citing "we will introduce cheaper advances" before those cheap advances become near impossible to get hold off meaning passengers end up paying the Avanti fares.

 

[87015]

Not forgetting of course the slam-door hauled set which has since been scrapped.

I'm still wondering how i don't fall over every time given they "shake the ground" apparently, but that doesn't seem to apply i'f im there

 

[sammyg901]

Based on my observations the Chilterns over the Met, and peak-time Met line services - are pretty much back to pre-Covid levels of crowding - they need all the stock they can get on both lines. If any services were going to be cut it would actually now be the ones which run non-stop to Amersham or Missenden as these are easily the quietest (and often run as 2-car as a result), but they also form crucial positioning back-workings from Aylesbury.

The off-peak reductions to Chiltern services over the Met are also now starting to cause challenges. 1tph adds up to a lot.

Well of course it'd be better to have enough stock to do it all but that isn't happening any time soon.

I'm sure someone could do a proper analysis between tfl and Chiltern and figure out a way to reduce Chiltern services along the Met one way or another to free up some capacity for the "mainline" which doesn't have alternative options or the ability to take the next train a few minutes later.

Off peak I agree and that isn't a stock issue I assume that's a pure cost cutting move

 

[HSTEd]

If we're going to use "prioritising capacity" as a justification to sacrifice the wellbeing of people living near Marylebone, we can also use it to make the loco hauled sets unnecessary by replacing the interior of the DMUs with a tube train style interior.

The fact is the railway survives because the general population consents to providing billions a year in subsidies to the industry.
Anything, like this debacle, that undermines the positive image of the railway is a serious danger to it's survival in the long term.

The class 68s should never have been built and should be sent for conversion into razorblades. DRS should stop playing at being a ROSCO and begin winding down it's establishment to something that actually matches it's primary purpose

 

[MML]

Could they use class 67s and increase the length of the coaching stock ?
So quieter loco and more capacity with more seats for Birmingham and Oxford.
Or are the platforms not long enough?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What locos would you suggest? That are 100mph capable, have ETS, are cleared for the route and are available?

Class 67s. Available for purchase at this very moment in time.