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Overnight sleeper service through channel tunnel.

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RT4038

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Border control could conceivably be done on the train by staff with appropriate scanners etc, although on a sleeper this would probably involve getting people up. Luggage scanning is a bigger issue, literally, as it needs bulky and costly equipment and can't practically be done on board.

Border control would definitely mean getting people up. It is inconceivable now that a visual check of every passenger would not be required. Luggage scanning would be another issue.
Sleeping car trains are just not practical and economical for the Channel Tunnel route (and hardly economical elsewhere!).
 
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MarkyT

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My memories of (just) pre schenegen European overnight travel are a little different - sometimes. Being woken up by border guards coming through the train, sometimes with dogs, was not uncommon. I seem to remember the Austria / Italy border being particularly interesting.

The old east/west Germany border crossing was quite an involved procedure on a day train I travelled on in the early 1980s. At a border station stop, on-board staff investigated behind every single removable panel and under every seat, while a full papieren check was carried out along with money exchange, as one was not officially allowed to export any of the GDR currency and had to show you'd spent the requisite daily equivalent amount of hard currency while staying in the country. That was actually quite difficult to achieve at local prices (assuming you could even find anything to buy!) so any excess Ostmarks you retained were supposed to be handed back, for which they they would offer you shiny medals of the glorious revolution or some other such official tat in exchange rather than hand over valuable Deutchmarks. Despite all this palaver, the train was delayed for less than an hour which I believe beats the stops enforced for everyone not pre-cleared to leave and re-board the train and walk up to half a mile with all their luggage at Lille on Eurostar. I really don't understand why the heck they can't just do all the immigration checks on arrival at St Pancras, just as if it was an international airport, with the CARRIER responsible for ensuring those onboard have the correct clearance to travel, like international air travel the world over.
 
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Meerkat

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I really don't understand why the heck they can't just do all the immigration checks on arrival at St Pancras,

If you find illegals in country you would have to go through a deportation process wouldn’t you?
Much easier to just make sure they never get on the train.
 

MarkyT

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If you find illegals in country you would have to go through a deportation process wouldn’t you?
Much easier to just make sure they never get on the train.
But how do they deal with that at airports? At Heathrow for instance there are flights from hundreds of foreign airports. They don't have UK border force personnel at each one.
 

S-Car-Go

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It would be fairly easy to set up an overnight service going to the Continent. It's just coming back that's the issue. Although passport controls can be carried out on arrival in London, pre-travel security screening is mandatory for all passengers as per Eurotunnel regs. This includes securing the platforms with segregated walls/fences. If providing any direct train to London, overnight or day, the segregated platform infrastructure & security would need to be installed. Lovely idea though, I personally would love to see overnight trains to French riviera, northern Italy and Barcelona/Spanish Med coast to eliminate some holiday flights.

Border control would definitely mean getting people up. It is inconceivable now that a visual check of every passenger would not be required. Luggage scanning would be another issue.
Sleeping car trains are just not practical and economical for the Channel Tunnel route (and hardly economical elsewhere!).
 

coppercapped

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I am sure the numbers are correct, but they do need to be put into context. Ryanair operates about 450 aircraft and is one of the, if not the, largest airlines in Europe. All its flights are on intra-european routes and if all these flights were split between two different airlines then they would not appear in this set of statistics at all.

The European Aviation Environmental Report 2019 which is linked from the European Environmental Agency's web site is more nuanced than the BBC's report which i think used it as a basis. The key findings of the report are:
  • The number of flights (EU28 + EFTA) increased by 8 % between 2014 and 2017, and is expected to grow by 42 % from 2017 to 2040 in the most-likely forecast.
  • Technological improvements, fleet renewal and increased operational efficiency have been able to partially counterbalance the impact of recent growth, but there has still been an increase in overall noise and emissions since 2014.
  • In 2016, domestic aviation and international aviation were together accountable for 3.6 % of the total EU28 greenhouse gas emissions and for 13.4 % of the emissions from transport.
  • The environmental efficiency of aviation continues to improve and, by 2040, further improvements are expected in average fuel burn per passenger kilometer flown (-12 %) and noise energy per flight (-24 %).
  • By 2040, CO2 and NOX emissions from aviation are expected to increase by at least 21 % and 16 %, respectively.
So to be clear - domestic and international aviation together account for 3.6% of the total EU28 greenhouse gas emissions and 13.4% of total transport emissions. Even the 21% increase in CO2 by 2040 - following a 42% increase in flight numbers - will only increase the 3.6% to 4.4% assuming no change in the background levels.

These levels of emission might be undesirable, but they are not by any means the source of the bulk of the emissions. Concentrate on reducing those - a 10% drop will achieve a bigger effect than reducing air travel by 10% and won't damage the economy and people's lives as much. Spend the money on geo-thermal district heating...
 

Killingworth

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Memories, memories, of travelling by train from Newcastle to Kitzbuhel in 1966.

Moat of the day to get to Folkestone and then Boulogne to board direct train, going to Salzburg or Vienna? Of the couchette compartment shared with 3 ladies, we lads gallantly taking the upper berths. It was during a heat wave and it was stifling. We trundled across France, every level crossing marking our passing by the ringing of bells.

Breakfast in Switzerland and a nice scenic journey up to the Austrian border - with brief dip into Liechtenstein? Border checks were light. Arrived by tea time after two days of holiday gone, and same on way back.

Even with the speeding up of the tunnel I can't see business people in significant numbers wanting to use such services, but leisure users might. Price would be more important than time. That's where the idea is likely to fall down, however Wagons Lit type branding might make it work.
 

Bald Rick

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But how do they deal with that at airports? At Heathrow for instance there are flights from hundreds of foreign airports. They don't have UK border force personnel at each one.

Every international (except Ireland) passenger flight that comes to Heathrow (or any UK airport) will have had every passenger screened by the airline to check they have a passport with valid entry to the U.K. Every passenger’s details will be recorded, and forwarded to U.K. Border forces before the aircraft arrives in the U.K. and, of course, every passenger has to go through security, and will only board the pane from a secure area. This is intended to stop undocumented individuals fro entering theUk, and will also give U.K Border Force prior notice of any properly documented but ‘undesirable’ individuals so tat they can be intercepted at UK immigration.

None of this is possible for international rail services unless every platform where the train calls in Europe is a) secure and b) has sufficient controls to prevent access to it by undocumented / undesirable individuals.

Personally, I wish ‘we’ in the U.K. grew a pair and joined Schengen. But it will be a brave politician who suggests that.
 

RT4038

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But how do they deal with that at airports? At Heathrow for instance there are flights from hundreds of foreign airports. They don't have UK border force personnel at each one.
Every international (except Ireland) passenger flight that comes to Heathrow (or any UK airport) will have had every passenger screened by the airline to check they have a passport with valid entry to the U.K. Every passenger’s details will be recorded, and forwarded to U.K. Border forces before the aircraft arrives in the U.K. and, of course, every passenger has to go through security, and will only board the pane from a secure area. This is intended to stop undocumented individuals fro entering theUk, and will also give U.K Border Force prior notice of any properly documented but ‘undesirable’ individuals so tat they can be intercepted at UK immigration.

None of this is possible for international rail services unless every platform where the train calls in Europe is a) secure and b) has sufficient controls to prevent access to it by undocumented / undesirable individuals.

Personally, I wish ‘we’ in the U.K. grew a pair and joined Schengen. But it will be a brave politician who suggests that.

And to ensure that carriers take their duties seriously, they are heavily fined, made responsible for repatriation costs of any undocumented individuals arriving and the threat of their operating licence withdrawn for persistent offences.

Eurostar currently have an advantage over the airlines - passengers are pre-checked before boarding and have no queuing / checking at St. Pancras on arrival. If Eurostar changed over to the airline system, they would still have to screen luggage (Channel Tunnel regs.) , check passports, do sterile areas to prevent undocumented/unscreened access, [so pax no better off than now] AND the passengers delayed having to go through immigration control on arrival.
And all this to allow rail enthusiasts/leisure passengers a through train from Rome to London? Nonsense. Leisure passengers do not want to pay the fares required to make such services economical, and very few premium fare passengers are going to make such journeys by train rather than flying.
 

mark-h

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But how do they deal with that at airports? At Heathrow for instance there are flights from hundreds of foreign airports. They don't have UK border force personnel at each one.

When flying it is not possible to leave the aircraft (under normal conditions) until it has arrived at its destination airport, a relatively small, secured site. Railway lines are a lot less secure, and have a large perimeter and it is possible to exit a train when it is not at a station.

Clearing immigration before departure removes the risk of passengers leaving the train before it arrives at the destination to bypass boarder control.
 

etr221

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When flying it is not possible to leave the aircraft (under normal conditions) until it has arrived at its destination airport, a relatively small, secured site. Railway lines are a lot less secure, and have a large perimeter and it is possible to exit a train when it is not at a station.

Clearing immigration before departure removes the risk of passengers leaving the train before it arrives at the destination to bypass boarder control.
In the days of the 'Night Ferry' train - whose passengers went through customs and immigration on arrival at Victoria, my understanding is that there were instructions that it should not stop if at all possible for any reason, and more as to what to do if it did (which were variations on 'call out the police to stop anybody getting off')
 

MarkyT

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In the days of the 'Night Ferry' train - whose passengers went through customs and immigration on arrival at Victoria, my understanding is that there were instructions that it should not stop if at all possible for any reason, and more as to what to do if it did (which were variations on 'call out the police to stop anybody getting off')
What did they do with those who were refused entry in those days? I'm certain that trains routed via HS1 would be much less likely to encounter a unexpected stop en route than on the classic network, and the well maintained secure fencing would likely frustrate anyone attempting to escape the alignment even if they did manage to get off a train. I don't know how the emergency passenger alarms work on Eurostar but I'd guess its not an immediate brake application response as that could be unsafe under the channel and in the long London approach tunnels, so it could be difficult for a passenger to initiate a unplanned stop from on board. I understand the current system of pre-clearance from the major departure points makes sense for the vast majority of passengers, enabling faster dispersal on arrival, but I also understand the immigration authorities reserve the rights to impose a full check on arrival if the choose to do so. Perhaps on certain new routes or individual trains, that could be the norm.
 

etr221

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What did they do with those who were refused entry in those days?
I don't know - but I suspect the number would have been small (and I imagine at least a basic check, that passengers had passports, etc. would have been done pre departure, and that the car attendants would have have shown documents at Dover for obvious undesirables to have been picked out).

I think what has changed is that the authorities are (a) more worried about 'undesirables' getting in, and (b) perceive that far more of them will be trying to get in. I read somewhere that the Common Travel Area (with the Irish Free State and its successors) was established when civil servants sent to Dublin to sort out details with those setting up the (shortly to be) Free State asked 'If we give you a copy of our undesirable aliens list, will you refuse them admission?', and got a positive response - at which everyone heaved a sigh of relief that they wouldn't have to set up checks all along the border. And that this list only had a couple of hundred names on it... (Immigration control for the UK only came in the period before WW1)
 

Elwyn

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What did they do with those who were refused entry in those days? I'm certain that trains routed via HS1 would be much less likely to encounter a unexpected stop en route than on the classic network, and the well maintained secure fencing would likely frustrate anyone attempting to escape the alignment even if they did manage to get off a train. I don't know how the emergency passenger alarms work on Eurostar but I'd guess its not an immediate brake application response as that could be unsafe under the channel and in the long London approach tunnels, so it could be difficult for a passenger to initiate a unplanned stop from on board. I understand the current system of pre-clearance from the major departure points makes sense for the vast majority of passengers, enabling faster dispersal on arrival, but I also understand the immigration authorities reserve the rights to impose a full check on arrival if the choose to do so. Perhaps on certain new routes or individual trains, that could be the norm.

I am retired now but I was an Immigration Officer in the 1970s and worked at Victoria Station clearing the passengers on the Night Ferry. Only the First Class passengers were cleared at Victoria, any 2nd class ones were cleared at Dover. First class were allowed to stay in their beds. I suppose the average number of 1st class arriving at Victoria was 50 or 100 most of whom were well off and the general risk of someone pulling the chord or jumping off the train (or hanging on the outside of the train as has happened in the Chunnel) was perceived as low. It never happened in my time there. But it was low volume top end of the market business.

When someone was refused entry at Victoria you did a risk assessment. If they were judged likely to abscond or be a risk to public safety they got a police escort back down to Dover and put on the next ferry. If they were judged compliant they could be allowed to proceed to Dover under their own steam, as it were. A formal system, similar to bail. They had to report on arrival at Dover and their departure would then be confirmed.

Yes, as you say, nowadays with Eurostar there is a system in place for a full check on arrival where appropriate. That’s not a method that either the rail companies or Borderforce prefer but it can be done to deal with a range of non standard situations. Passengers can also be cleared on the train as it travels to the UK. Usually two Immigration Officers board the train at each end then and work towards each other, clearing the passengers as they go. Again that’s not a perfect system as there are issues to do with privacy when interviewing people and some risk if you encounter someone who is aggressive, drunk or uncooperative. I don’t know if it’s still the case but the Eurodisney and Avignon to London trains used to be controlled in that way as they didn’t operate from French or Belgian stations with a permanent Borderforce presence.
 

DavidGrain

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Assuming that Eurostars continue to be made up of two units you would need to find two or three destinations fairly close together for which you could make up a 1/2 train load most nights of the week. You would also need border control points at each foreign station at which passengers can board UK bound trains.

You would need a small fleet of sleeper cars which have a very high weight to passenger numbers ratio. I really don't see this as an economic proposition
 

MarkyT

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I am retired now but I was an Immigration Officer in the 1970s...
Fascinating thank you.
...with Eurostar there is a system in place for a full check on arrival where appropriate... I don’t know if it’s still the case but the Eurodisney and Avignon to London trains used to be controlled in that way as they didn’t operate from French or Belgian stations with a permanent Borderforce presence.
Good to know there is some flexibility in the system for new flows if there is a demand. Presumably the rail companies still have to organise a segregated area at embarkation stations and appropriate security and identity checks, so that is very similar to airline operations. I recall reading there's some security complications mixing methods at St Pancras and indeed with arrivals and departures using the default method because the international platforms can't be separated down the middle to segregate passengers. Does the UK entry check at St Pancras also count as a reciprocal Schengen exit check or does that have to occur at embarkation?
 

Elwyn

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Yes there is flexibility. I wasn’t heavily involved in the arrangements for the Channel Tunnel but I did manage other areas of the UK where airlines and ferry companies would apply to start new international routes. I managed the north of Scotland in the 1990s and one airline started a service from Amsterdam to Inverness. Another had weekly holiday flights from Paris to Stornoway and another from Bergen to Sumburgh (Shetland Islands). Borderforce didn't have any staff in any of those locations. We could theoretically have told the airlines they couldn’t operate (though under EU law there are restrictions on what can be restricted in that way) so instead we tended to work with the airlines to ensure that the flights arrived at times that we could provide staff for (who were sent in from elsewhere in Scotland) and we charged the companies for that service.

It would surely be the same with new international train services. It’s unlikely that they would simply be refused permission to operate. That’s not in the UK’s commercial interest. What you would be looking at would be ways of operating that ensured that border security was protected, and as you say ensuring segregation and international security checks. So they might get the green light to operate but under conditions restricting where they stopped on the way to the UK. (Journeys out of the UK are less sensitive. As far as the UK is concerned, they can stop where they like once they have gone through the tunnel).

Sleeper services to the UK will surely be a difficult area. The old days of leaving your passport with the steward for it to be stamped in the middle of the night are long gone. A face to face encounter for every passenger is now the minimum and many foreign nationals have to have their fingerprints checked, which can be done on a portable machine, but which can’t be done professionally if you are lying in your expensive sleeping compartment. Passengers don’t want to have to get out of their bunks at 2 in the morning. So in simple commercial terms they either need to be checked when they board the train or on arrival. Boarding is probably the UK’s preferred option but from my experience it also happens to be the rail companies too because then the passengers don’t have to queue on arrival, which is very popular. (Dublin & Shannon Airports have pre-clearance for passengers to the US. US immigration staff check passports in Ireland, so you avoid their controls on arrival. Very popular and people go out of the way to use those routes).

I recall considerable discussion in London in the 1990s when the rail companies were proposing international sleeper services. We weren’t sure how it could be done without causing massive delays, and having staff at half the rail stations in the UK, for 1 train a day. Not very efficient. I think the Home Office was quite relieved when the rail companies decided the services weren’t commercially viable. I think (but don’t know) that they concluded that actually not all that many people wanted to go from Glasgow to Paris or Berlin by overnight train. And I don’t think that has changed much today.

An issue that didn’t really exist in the 1970s was asylum seekers. There were a few but they were usually people fleeing from Iron Curtain countries and the numbers were very small. Today many people seeking to relocate for what many would say are simple economic reasons designate themselves as asylum seekers. Some are genuine and some are not. Under the UN conventions relating to asylum you are supposed to seek asylum in the first safe haven. You are not supposed to go “asylum shopping” choosing one country in Europe over another. So unless you consider France or Belgium to be unsafe countries, in most cases there is no reason why someone in Brussels, Paris or Calais, should not seek asylum there. And so if someone seeking asylum presents to the UK authorities at the Gare Du Nord, they are usually simply advised to apply in France, and referred to the PAF (the French Immigration authorities). Likewise in Brussels. So from a UK perspective it’s a very simple and effective system. If the person makes it to the UK, their application can still be rejected on 3rd country grounds (ie they should have applied in Belgium or France) and they can be sent back there but it all takes a lot longer and costs the UK taxpayer, especially when the lawyers get involved. So having controls in Europe makes the UK controls more effective and fortunately also apparently suits the rail companies commercial needs.

Regarding Schengen, the UK isn’t in that agreement, so as far as we are concerned it doesn’t count as an exit check. (Well not when I worked in that field anyway). I don’t know much about the arrangements at St Pancras and would be reluctant to comment on the detail there, but I am sure the general policy will be to ensure they meet the same standards that exist at airports and seaports with international services. So no mixing of inbound international and domestic passengers.
 

Bald Rick

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Yes there is flexibility. I wasn’t heavily involved in the arrangements for the Channel Tunnel but I did manage other areas of the UK where airlines and ferry companies would apply to start new international routes...

Brilliant post, very interesting.
 

03_179

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From a personal point of view I think that overnight trains inc sleepers from London St Pancras to Vienna would be good.

Vienna is hubs for both Rail and airports.

Also other desitnations could be Barcelona, Madrid, South of France, Rome, Budapest
 

coppercapped

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From a personal point of view I think that overnight trains inc sleepers from London St Pancras to Vienna would be good.

Vienna is hubs for both Rail and airports.

Also other desitnations could be Barcelona, Madrid, South of France, Rome, Budapest
I can't see why anybody would want to travel to Vienna by train from London to make a connection with an aeroplane. Why not fly direct from Heathrow or make a connection at Schiphol? (Other hubs are available).

All of these destinations, with the possible exception of Barcelona and the South of France, are too far from London for a night train. See the arguments in two earlier posts, 13 and 17 in this thread.

And, as others have pointed out, you also have to consider the return journey and today's requirements for security and immigration screening.
 
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03_179

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I can't see why anybody would want to travel to Vienna by train from London to make a connection with an aeroplane. Why not fly direct from Heathrow or make a connection at Schiphol? (Other hubs are available).

All of these destinations, with the possible exception of Barcelona and the South of France, are too far from London for a night train. See the arguments in two earlier posts, 13 and 17 in this thread.

And, as others have pointed out, you also have to consider the return journey and today's requirements for security and immigration screening.

I wasn't saying Vienna is a hub to get a plane. It is a gateway for many places both by train or plane.

Vienna isn't too far a stretch. Having caught the sleeper from Oostende in the past (leaving about 19:30 I seem to remember) and arriving at Wien Westbahnhof at about 09:30. It was a good trip.
 

30907

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I wasn't saying Vienna is a hub to get a plane. It is a gateway for many places both by train or plane.

Vienna isn't too far a stretch. Having caught the sleeper from Oostende in the past (leaving about 19:30 I seem to remember) and arriving at Wien Westbahnhof at about 09:30. It was a good trip.
Vienna is a gateway to Slovakia and further East (and to eastern Czechia, I'm actually on ICE229 now!). It currently gets a NJ portion from Düsseldorf so there is some demand. Howeve, unlikely to be enough to warrant a service from/to London. Munich might do better - it's rather busier in terms of flights, which is at least a clue...
 

Royston Vasey

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Firstly, consider the environmental cost of shifting 500tonnes plus of metal for over 12 hours (albeit with electricity) compared to 100t plus of metal for an hour and a half.

Secondly, governments could find far, far more effective methods of reducing carbon emmissions per pound/euro spent than subsidising sleepers.
737-8 MTOW is 80t, and most flights will fly at much much lower weight, especially LCCs on short routes. The plane itself weighs half that. I'm not disagreeing with you, your point is well made.
 

Bald Rick

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737-8 MTOW is 80t, and most flights will fly at much much lower weight, especially LCCs on short routes. The plane itself weighs half that. I'm not disagreeing with you, your point is well made.

I was going by an A321neo, and rounding up ;)
 

Tio Terry

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Are there any sleeping coaches with fire safety clearance for the Channel Tunnel or would new rolling stock be required?
 

Bald Rick

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Are there any sleeping coaches with fire safety clearance for the Channel Tunnel or would new rolling stock be required?

Good question. The nightstar coaches wherever they are (Canada?) would presumably still fit the bill. Otherwise new.

Although I wonder if any sleeper coaches that are deemed safe to transit the Lötchsberg / Gotthard base tunnels would also meet Eurotunnel standards?
 

Indigo Soup

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Good question. The nightstar coaches wherever they are (Canada?) would presumably still fit the bill. Otherwise new.

Although I wonder if any sleeper coaches that are deemed safe to transit the Lötchsberg / Gotthard base tunnels would also meet Eurotunnel standards?
Probably not, because Eurotunnel. But the base tunnels could be used as a stick with which to hit the Eurotunnel standards until the gold plate wears off.

To be honest, running St Pancras to somewhere is probably the only way you could practically deal with immigration requirements, at least on the British end, and would have the advantage of allowing UIC gauge stock to run through the tunnel. It would be foolish to ignore that possibility, IMHO. This is an idea that needs every bit of help it gets, given the economics!
 

Tio Terry

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Probably not, because Eurotunnel. But the base tunnels could be used as a stick with which to hit the Eurotunnel standards until the gold plate wears off.

To be honest, running St Pancras to somewhere is probably the only way you could practically deal with immigration requirements, at least on the British end, and would have the advantage of allowing UIC gauge stock to run through the tunnel. It would be foolish to ignore that possibility, IMHO. This is an idea that needs every bit of help it gets, given the economics!


Are you suggesting a reduction in fire safety standards for the Channel Tunnel? I seriously doubt that will ever happen.
 

edwin_m

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The standards were relaxed to allow DB to run pairs of shorter trains rather than having to have a longer one that people could walk through but was still divisible.
 

Tio Terry

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The standards were relaxed to allow DB to run pairs of shorter trains rather than having to have a longer one that people could walk through but was still divisible.

Changes to procedural arrangements are somewhat different to changes in fire safety engineering standards for rolling stock that use the Channel Tunnel.

Just out of interest, are DB running trains through the tunnel now? I thought they had been prevented from doing so because none of their trains met the fire safety requirements.
 
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