Overnight sleepers from Kings Cross

citycat

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I was recently watching an episode of the eighties series, Yes Minister, when they all jumped on an overnight sleeper to Edinburgh from Kings Cross.

I was just curious what the loco would normally have been on the Anglo Scottish sleepers from KX? A class 47 or a 55 or both? Where would the crews normally swap? York or Newcastle?
 
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Mag_seven

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47s were regulars on these services and I'm sure 55s would have worked them as well. As regards crew changes, I'm sure as well as Newcastle and York, Doncaster would have featured (and Edinburgh for those services working north of there).
 

Peter Mugridge

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My dad had 55 021 on a southbound from, I think, Dundee in the last year of Deltic operation. He's not into numbers or anything at all, but he did remember the name of it...
 

70014IronDuke

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I had a Cl 55 from Kirkaldy on a sleeper to KX in, IIRC, September, 1970. Right time in London.

They almost certainly used EE 4s and 46s in the 60s too.

The Yes, Minister episode is the one where Hacker has to go to Scotland to meet his former LSE chum, who has taken over an oil-rich African country, IIRC. They show a Deltic leaving KX (presumably), but with the wrong soundtrack.
 

edwin_m

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From 1978 to 1981 I often saw the down Aberdeen sleeper at about 0730 in Kirkcaldy. I don't recall anything interesting about the loco, so I would guess it was pretty universally a 47. But it might have been a Deltic south of Edinburgh as they were rarer further north.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Deltics certainly mixed with 47s for many years on these services, both north and south of Edinburgh. However introduction of the Mk3s saw them effectively banned as their ETH supply was a poor match for the air conditioning system. Anyone who ever rode behind them in air-conditioned day stock will have experienced the stopping and surging of the air-con fans as the loco's traction electrics switched between circuits. Not a problem for daytime passengers but potentially disruptive to anyone sleeping.
 

47271

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Deltics certainly mixed with 47s for many years on these services, both north and south of Edinburgh. However introduction of the Mk3s saw them effectively banned as their ETH supply was a poor match for the air conditioning system. Anyone who ever rode behind them in air-conditioned day stock will have experienced the stopping and surging of the air-con fans as the loco's traction electrics switched between circuits. Not a problem for daytime passengers but potentially disruptive to anyone sleeping.
I've just checked this with my dad. His recollection is that no mk3 sleeper was in service to Aberdeen until December 1981. The Deltics went in October of that year he says, would there actually have been an opportunity for the two to mix at all, the window would have been an extremely small one?

Did the mk3s run to Edinburgh before they went to Aberdeen, maybe that's the difference?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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I've just checked this with my dad. His recollection is that no mk3 sleeper was in service to Aberdeen until December 1981. The Deltics went in October of that year he says, would there actually have been an opportunity for the two to mix at all, the window would have been an extremely small one?

Did the mk3s run to Edinburgh before they went to Aberdeen, maybe that's the difference?
Deltics were still covering diagrammed work until the very end of 1981 but those diagrams did not include work north of Edinburgh by then though they could still be found on such trips. Mk3 sleepers entered service during the course of 1981 but I'm not sure exactly how they were used. It would have made sense to initially confine them to Kings Cross/Edinburgh trains and I believe the Night Capitals was such a train. I did manage a couple of overnight runs behind Deltics but very much with Mk1 stock (including sleepers). My recollection is that every effort was made to ensure that depots turned out 47/4s for those overnights using Mk3s. The overlap between Mk3s and Deltics was not long but I think it was more than just a few weeks. I'll have to search through various books to see if there is any more concrete information.
 

47271

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Deltics were still covering diagrammed work until the very end of 1981 but those diagrams did not include work north of Edinburgh by then though they could still be found on such trips. Mk3 sleepers entered service during the course of 1981 but I'm not sure exactly how they were used. It would have made sense to initially confine them to Kings Cross/Edinburgh trains and I believe the Night Capitals was such a train. I did manage a couple of overnight runs behind Deltics but very much with Mk1 stock (including sleepers). My recollection is that every effort was made to ensure that depots turned out 47/4s for those overnights using Mk3s. The overlap between Mk3s and Deltics was not long but I think it was more than just a few weeks. I'll have to search through various books to see if there is any more concrete information.
Thanks - it's an obscure question I know.

I find being in the leading sleeper coach pulled by a 67 noisy enough, a Deltic really would've been quite challenging for a good night's sleep!
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Thanks - it's an obscure question I know.

I find being in the leading sleeper coach pulled by a 67 noisy enough, a Deltic really would've been quite challenging for a good night's sleep!
IME a 57 is even noisier! Though personally I found the drone of a Deltic quite soporific and drivers mostly were gentler on the power handle on overnight trains compared with day trains. As indeed is the case today.
 

Clarence Yard

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In the late 1970’s and very early 1980’s the usual power for an ECML sleeper was a Deltic or 47. A 40 or 46 might also appear as a fill-in on the odd occasion, if they had a working boiler.

Iirc, the first mk 3 sleeper rake didn’t enter ECML service until 1982, just after the last Deltic was withdrawn. With those trains the 47/4 had a virtual monopoly.

The boiler on a Deltic, the Spanner 2, wasn’t as good as the Spanner 3 on the 47 we had at FP (for boilers, we were a “Spanner” Depot!). On a very long Sleeper Train the Spanner 2 could get winded and the last couple of vehicles would suffer as a result.
 

Cowley

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When the batch of long range 47s (47551-553 plus 47650-665) were converted in the eighties, were they intended for these services does anyone know?
I remember that some of them carried large Westie (Eastfield) logos on them for a while before they became 47/8s.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Thanks - it's an obscure question I know.

I find being in the leading sleeper coach pulled by a 67 noisy enough, a Deltic really would've been quite challenging for a good night's sleep!
For some reason - there was no full brake next to the loco , and staff reserved berths always got the worst ones , - i.e over the bogies and next to the loco , plus had to share with a slightly economically challenged bloke who had fag breaks at frequent intervals and consumed the best part of a bottle of Scotch. Best I can say is that I was lying down , not a lot of sleep.

For an 0900 hrs meeting - which led to a shed load of work ....came back in daylight via the WCML and slept most of the way ....
 

Far north 37

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When the batch of long range 47s (47551-553 plus 47650-665) were converted in the eighties, were they intended for these services does anyone know?
I remember that some of them carried large Westie (Eastfield) logos on them for a while before they became 47/8s.
A look on this excellent flickr page shows 47650 652 653 654 658 659 661 and 665 all with eastfield scottie terrier logos.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/roddymacphee/albums/72157644730453919
 
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