Overshoot at MKC - 9th May

[mgood]

The 16:15 Avanti to Liverpool Lime Street overshot Platform 6 at MKC today by at least three carriages - then took 25 mins to 'reverse'.

Why not just only open the doors on the carriages which were against a Platform rather than delaying everyone for 25 minutes ?

 

[I_am_Nobody]

it may have been for an operational reason. I don’t know the traction stock in question, but at least for the trains I work it takes manual effort to lock out any doors off of a platform when you should otherwise be fully accommodated, if I can even get to that part of the train without going lineside. if it’s a pendo, is the TMS modern enough to have electronically locked out doors?

 

[dk1]

The 16:15 Avanti to Liverpool Lime Street overshot Platform 6 at MKC today by at least three carriages - then took 25 mins to 'reverse'.

Why not just only open the doors on the carriages which were against a Platform rather than delaying everyone for 25 minutes ?

Is that possible with that type of traction? Our units are able to have individual coaches selected but the driver is not allowed to override them if other options are available.

No train would reverse. The driver would change ends and drive from the leading cab.

 

[scrapy]

There may be passengers in wheelchairs, with pushchairs or with luggage they cannot easily get through 3 carriages, in the part of the train that is off the platform.

 

[poffle]

it may have been for an operational reason. I don’t know the traction stock in question, but at least for the trains I work it takes manual effort to lock out any doors off of a platform when you should otherwise be fully accommodated, if I can even get to that part of the train without going lineside. if it’s a pendo, is the TMS modern enough to have electronically locked out doors?

RTT says it was an 807.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The 16:15 Avanti to Liverpool Lime Street overshot Platform 6 at MKC today by at least three carriages - then took 25 mins to 'reverse'.

Why not just only open the doors on the carriages which were against a Platform rather than delaying everyone for 25 minutes ?

Real Time Trains says it arrived 3 minutes late - at 16:18, and departed at 16:39. That implies it took 21 minutes to reverse, plus do all the opening doors/etc. So maybe 18-ish minutes rather than 25 to reverse. Does that match your experience (if you were on it?).

Still a very long time. It does seem hard to imagine that it could take that long for the driver to message the signaller, arrange to reverse back, then walk through the train and drive it about 60 metres back into the platform.

 

[Horizon22]

Real Time Trains says it arrived 3 minutes late - at 16:18, and departed at 16:39. That implies it took 21 minutes to reverse plus do all the opening doors/etc. So maybe 18-ish minutes rather than 25 to reverse. Does that match your experience (if you were on it?). Still a very long time. Does seem hard to imagine that it could take that long for the driver to message the signaller, arrange to reverse back, then walk through the train and drive it about 60 metres back into the platform.

Well they would also have to check in with Avanti control, a welfare check be undertaken with the driver (both signaller & control) to ensure they are fit to do the move and a cursory check of their operational record to see if it suitable, shut down the cab, walk down the other end of the cab (at least 6-7 minutes), set up the rear cab, contact the signaller to reverse back - which would be at extreme caution as it's unlikely to be a signalled move - and then walk back to the other end again. That's about 12-15 minutes of walking, which accounts for a good chunk of it. At some TOCs, there is a "forward only" policy - no reversing at all.

I wonder if the late running was related to the overshoot, if the driver was trying to make up time and so driving as fast as possible/allowed? It looks like the train was 5 minutes late when it passed Bletchley.

It would be seriously unprofessional behaviour for the driver to do that. But any distractions would be part of the investigation.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Companies typically want their own Input into it. Its not a conversation between the driver and signaller, it's everyone from station staff through to company control. They may even want the driver relieved. Sounds excessive but it does happen.

Several companies, my own included, have a no reverse policy. Would likely only happen on the final train at that station for the day etc.

SDO is easy go do on any 80X, but you can't "just do it". Especially if you have a disabled passenger not platformed.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well they would also have to check in with Avanti control, a welfare check be undertaken with the driver (both signaller & control) to ensure they are fit to do the move and a cursory check of their operational record to see if it suitable, shut down the cab, walk down the other end of the cab (at least 6-7 minutes), set up the rear cab, contact the signaller to reverse back - which would be at extreme caution as it's unlikely to be a signalled move - and then walk back to the other end again. That's about 12-15 minutes of walking, which accounts for a good chunk of it. At some TOCs, there is a "forward only" policy - no reversing at all.

Interesting. But if that's all true, it does suggest to me severe bureaucracy/design issues on the railway: I would expect a normal healthy person could walk the 260m length of a Pendolino along a platform in about 3 minutes. Add 20 seconds if the driver has to start by walking through the 3 carriages to get to the platform. For setting the cab up - is it really that hard to build an electric train for which switching it on is a case of, pressing a button and maybe the train takes about a second to do an automatic check that all its electronics are working before it's ready to move? I mean, car manufacturers manage to do that for cars. And a welfare check because of simple mistake misjudging the stopping distance/speed? I could understand an 'Are you OK to reverse the train? Yes.' which should take about 5 seconds of conversation, but any more than that just seems like excessive bureaucracy. If the TOCs manage to push all that out to 20 minutes, then my first thought is, no wonder the railways are so expensive to run!

It would be seriously unprofessional behaviour for the driver to do that. But any distractions would be part of the investigation.

Well I did say 'possible/allowed', which I intended to mean, the fastest speed that would be permitted given speed limits and signals etc. (and consistent with intending to stop at MKC), so I'd hope that wouldn't be considered unprofessional.

 

[enginedin]

takes about a second to do an automatic check that all its electronics are working before it's ready to move

I'm not a train driver, and maybe I'm being naive, but I would be amazed if a train was ready to move within a second of pressing the "on" button.

a welfare check because of simple mistake misjudging the stopping distance/speed? I could understand an 'Are you OK to reverse the train? Yes.' which should take about 5 seconds of conversation.

I imagine that making any mistake (or anything going wrong) when you're in charge of a 260m long train can affect different people in different ways, and I'm not at all surprised there would be some people who would be, or would want to be, relieved after that kind of incident - so I'd hope that the welfare chat would be a lot more than 5 seconds

 

[I_am_Nobody]

I would expect a normal healthy person could walk the 260m length of a Pendolino along a platform in about 3 minutes.

Okay, great. Except the driver’s door isn’t on the platform, it’s off it therefore the driver is either going lineside or through the train. It takes longer than 3 minutes to walk through a train on a good day. Speaking from experience.

 

[185]

Why not just only open the doors on the carriages which were against a Platform rather than delaying everyone for 25 minutes ?

Fairly sure these are DCO - driver releases doors, TM shuts them using 10 bells - which means opening one or two doors using the egress probably isn't an option.

Could possibly happen at other companies however some TOCs created this situation by taking responsibility for opening doors off the guard / TM.

 

[dk1]

Real Time Trains says it arrived 3 minutes late - at 16:18, and departed at 16:39. That implies it took 21 minutes to reverse, plus do all the opening doors/etc. So maybe 18-ish minutes rather than 25 to reverse. Does that match your experience (if you were on it?).

Still a very long time. It does seem hard to imagine that it could take that long for the driver to message the signaller, arrange to reverse back, then walk through the train and drive it about 60 metres back into the platform.

That really doesn’t sound an excessive amount of time to me but about what would be expected in such a situation.

 

[Falcon1200]

And a welfare check because of simple mistake misjudging the stopping distance/speed? I could understand an 'Are you OK to reverse the train? Yes.' which should take about 5 seconds of conversation, but any more than that just seems like excessive bureaucracy.

Not excessive bureaucracy at all; It is absolutely vital to establish why the train overshot, and whether the Driver is fit to work the train forward, both from their own point of view and that of the responsible managers. Such things cannot, and should not, be rushed.

 

[uglymonkey]

The railways are run for the benefit of the railways, not the customers, don't forget

 

[jon0844]

The railways are run for the benefit of the railways, not the customers, don't forget

Keeping passengers safe is pretty important though, no?

 

[tram21]

15 minutes is a very reasonable amount of time, and that was done pretty quickly in my opinion. You could see it taking much longer really...

Keeping passengers safe is pretty important though, no?

Apart from the fact the driver is human too so they are checking on their welfare, I can't see how any of this could be argued to not be in the benefit of the 'passenger'. The worst thing they could do for the passenger would be to a) only open back doors, so anyone with limited mobility can't alight then b) continue without a welfare check and create a potentially serious SPAD down the line. As it is they got to their destination safely, and not too late.

 

[Harpo]

a welfare check because of simple mistake misjudging the stopping distance/speed?

Your assumption?? Other causes are available.

 

[D3WY]

The 16:15 Avanti to Liverpool Lime Street overshot Platform 6 at MKC today by at least three carriages - then took 25 mins to 'reverse'.

Why not just only open the doors on the carriages which were against a Platform rather than delaying everyone for 25 minutes ?

Even with small overshoots it's a safety of line incident and could be dangerous. There is the potential for opening doors not on the platform and as the train sets back people in the platform train interface getting hurt (people nievely trying to get on whiles it's setting back) in either case it's up to the signaller, they could get the driver to open doors individually (it's recommended the driver walks up the train opening each door with the T key) set back which is a wrong direction move OR signaller may advise the driver to go on to the next stop and miss it completely.

In either case it's not a quick process, by sound sof 20 min or so the driver was doing it's safely not quickly which is correct. The danger with changing ends and just quickly setting back is a wrong side door release.

it may have been for an operational reason. I don’t know the traction stock in question, but at least for the trains I work it takes manual effort to lock out any doors off of a platform when you should otherwise be fully accommodated, if I can even get to that part of the train without going lineside. if it’s a pendo, is the TMS modern enough to have electronically locked out doors?

I have just covered station overshoots and even on our stock where you can carry out emergancy door release (selecting individual doors) it's best practice to walk the train, open each door by hand that way absolutely no chance of opening a door not on the platform or too close to the end of it.

 

[Zomboid]

The railways are run for the benefit of the railways, not the customers, don't forget

If that were the case they'd probably have just said "ah screw it" and canned the station stop, so it would arrive at wherever it's destination was on time.

Reversing so passengers could get on or off would be the passenger centred thing to do.

 

[transportphoto]

they could get the driver to open doors individually (it's recommended the driver walks up the train opening each door with the T key)

Recommended where? I don’t think there are [m]any TOCs where you’ll find doors open individually with a T-Key. Have you a source to cite for this statement?

 

[stadler]

Fairly sure these are DCO - driver releases doors, TM shuts them using 10 bells - which means opening one or two doors using the egress probably isn't an option.

Could possibly happen at other companies however some TOCs created this situation by taking responsibility for opening doors off the guard / TM.

No they are not. Only the 220/221 operated like that and they are gone now. Avanti no longer have them. On these 220/221 trains it is not possible to open a local door. The driver can only release all doors. The only button on the guard panel is the green bell button. Also that is not considered DCO. Ten Bell Despatch with the driver opening and closing the doors is still considered full guard operation but with the guard instructing the driver to close the doors and still despatching the train. The method used on SE 395 trains where the second person has no involvement in despatch at all is what is considered DCO.



On the 390 they use driver open guard close. The driver opens and the guard closes and despatches. They have a limited door panel that only allows you to close the doors and does not have release buttons. Not even local door release. So opening a local door on a 390 is not possible either.



On the 805/807 they use driver open guard close. But these have full door control panels that allow the guard to open their local door or release all of the doors but these are not normally used as the driver releases. The guard always closes the doors and despatches on these. However you can open a local door with the yellow button if necessary.



So are we certain that it was definitely an 807 operating this service and not a 390 unit? If it was an 807 then i am not sure why they could have not just got the guard to open one local door (that was on the platform) as part of the train was still on the platform. Then just make an announcement for everyone to come to that carriage to alight. That would have been much quicker than doing this. I know most TOCs have a policy of allowing only a local door to be opened if a train partially overshoots a platform. SN on 171s and also SWR both allow this for partial overshoots as do some other operators. Do they have a policy at Avanti of not allowing guards to open a local door on the 807 units?

 

[Iddybiddy05]

Train for whatever reason overruns the platform…but stops with a portion still platformed - driver steadies themselves (1/2 minutes).

Driver contacts the signaller to advise (2 minutes).

Driver informs the guard (1 minute).

Signaller informs network rail control (2 minutes)

Network rail control inform toc control (several minutes).

TOC check their protocols can the train / driver set back ? (Several minutes).

TOC control contact network rail control with authority or otherwise to set back (2 minutes).

Network Rail control contact the signaller with authority to set back (2 minutes).

Signaller contacts driver to change ends and set up the cab (5 minutes).

Driver contacts signaller to seek permission to set back / signalled gives authority (3 minutes).

Train sets back and release doors correctly (3-5 minutes).

So it could take 20 minutes easily for a basic overrun to be corrected yes.

 

[AverageJoe]

Train for whatever reason overruns the platform…but stops with a portion still platformed - driver steadies themselves (1/2 minutes).

Driver contacts the signaller to advise (2 minutes).

Driver informs the guard (1 minute).

Signaller informs network rail control (2 minutes)

Network rail control inform toc control (several minutes).

TOC check their protocols can the train / driver set back ? (Several minutes).

TOC control contact network rail control with authority or otherwise to set back (2 minutes).

Network Rail control contact the signaller with authority to set back (2 minutes).

Signaller contacts driver to change ends and set up the cab (5 minutes).

Driver contacts signaller to seek permission to set back / signalled gives authority (3 minutes).

Train sets back and release doors correctly (3-5 minutes).

So it could take 20 minutes easily for a basic overrun to be corrected yes.

Add to that he would have had to walk through the train which could have been busy, and passengers love to ask the driver questions.
Then on his return along the platform probably more questions.

Some on here suggesting the driver misjudged his braking. I find that unlikely unless it’s a route he has just signed.

More likely he either forgot he was stopping there and got the brake in late or possible low adhesion due to diesel/oil contamination or if some light rain had just started after a few dry days.

For those that don’t think a welfare check is needed I had an incident a few months ago.
I stopped short at the wrong stop car board. I followed RB protocol and fortunately I was able to draw forward and no harm was done, both signaller and control were happy for me to continue and nothing else ever came of it.

However in reflection I would never carry on again after any type of incident.
I literally couldn’t get it off my mind, constantly asking myself “why did I do that?why did I not check my formation? what if this? what if that? Will I be having tea and biscuits tomorrow?

All these questions definitely distracted me from the job at hand and put me at risk of making another if not bigger mistake.

Welfare checks are necessary and from this point if I were to make another mistake I’d come off driving at that point even if control are happy for me to proceed.

 

[mmh]

I don’t think there are [m]any TOCs where you’ll find doors open individually with a T-Key.

I see Transport for Wales guards do this on 158s almost every day. Sometimes, if the train or platform is particularly busy, once on the platform they will open other platformed door(s) using the release on the side of the train.

 

[dosxuk]

If it was an 807 then i am not sure why they could have not just got the guard to open one local door (that was on the platform) as part of the train was still on the platform. Then just make an announcement for everyone to come to that carriage to alight. That would have been much quicker than doing this.

At Milton Keynes? You'd end up spending just as long again arguing with passengers trying to board from the platform that they needed to use the local door.

It's the sort of thing that might work at a minor stop, or at the ends of the day, but not MK at half four in the afternoon.

 

[mmh]

At Milton Keynes? You'd end up spending just as long again arguing with passengers trying to board from the platform that they needed to use the local door.

It's the sort of thing that might work at a minor stop, or at the ends of the day, but not MK at half four in the afternoon.

Is northbound from Milton Keynes that busy? I've never noticed it be, but my experience of it are North Wales bound services (which no longer stop there). I've always pictured it as somewhere where traffic is overwhelmingly in one direction, and imagine getting people off through one door to be impractical.

 

[185]

It's the sort of thing that might work at a minor stop, or at the ends of the day, but not MK at half four in the afternoon.

Actually seen it done at a major stop, due to a signaller playing jenga with trains by only using one platform, leaving a large train which arrived hanging half out of the station. Good, clear use of the PA, with one door opened on the key and a second door opened on an egress got 500 passengers off in about three minutes (yeah, by some form of a miracle). Big concern with waiting for Control & the box to organise a shunt & then let the passengers off 20-30 mins later, is someone pulls a passcom or door egress stopping the job.

 

[Zomboid]

northbound from Milton Keynes that busy

Don't know about the train in question, but in general it's busy both ways, it's got lots of employment (including NR HQ where people might be more likely than average to commute by train) and a good service to several large places in the general area (Rugby, Northampton, Coventry, Birmingham...).

 

[robbeech]

The railways are run for the benefit of the railways, not the customers, don't forget

I’m a firm believer of this statement when it comes to many things on the railway, but this is primarily a safety issue which the railway doesn’t muck about with so the statement absolutely doesn’t fit here.