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Overshoot at MKC - 9th May

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muz379

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Is there any scope for making this kind of process slightly more efficient under GBR?

Without several TOCs in the mix, you could in principle have a unified (or at least simpler) set of rules for this kind of incident. This could slightly reduce the "bureaucracy overhead"?

In practice I suspect this is not the case but I'd be interested to know what others with more knowledge think.
I dont think that there will be much change to processes in situations like this .

It will depend on what happens with control functions . But I can still see there being two sets of controllers , controllers for the infastructure side and controllers for the train operations side .

And ultimately someone will still have to check all factors and make the decision to give authority for the train to continue in service and for that driver to continue operating the train including for them to make the wrong direction movement .

Likewise someone from control will have to let the signaller know what is happening with the train , wether it will be making a wrong direction move , if the driver will be getting relieved etc .

You're missing the point. A train shouldn't be overrunning a station, so part of the process is establishing why the train overran.

If the driver had a lapse of concentration, you want to quickly establish why - and potentially don't want that driver taking the service forward if there's a likelihood of that lapse of concentration reoccurring, potentially leading to a SPAD or worse...

Is there any other issue with the driver, like a medical situation?

Adhesion problem? You're going to want action taken to prevent a reoccurrence (and possible SPAD and/or points run through).

Traction (braking) problem? You might want to take the unit out of service, or else - guess what - that's another potential SPAD or worse issue...
Exactly this , imagine the media reaction if it was a unit fault and the unit continues in service . Gets to lime street and overruns into the buffers leading to passengers getting seriously injured or worse .

Senior controllers are paid and employed for their ability to make these dynamic risk assessments and make decisions accordingly .
 
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Donny85

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Curious, I asked AI how the UK compares to continental Europe…

“In general, Continental Europe tends to have more operational flexibility with overshoot reversals than the UK, but safety standards remain high across all.”

Comparisons to buses early also lead me to think about planes.

When a pilot performs a go-around—essentially a “missed stop” in the sky—it’s treated as a normal, safe, and trained-for manoeuvre. No drama, no shame. It may be logged, but rarely is it considered an incident unless something truly went wrong.

By contrast, on the UK railway, if a train overshoots a platform by a few metres, the response often becomes a minor operational crisis: permission needed, movement frozen, passengers delayed, and complex signalling involvement. A reversal that takes seconds to execute becomes a procedural mountain.

Why this difference? The pilot’s go-around is accepted as part of the real-time judgment space—trained, rehearsed, and often celebrated as evidence of professionalism. On the railway, however, overshooting a platform—often due to human factors like braking misjudgment or slippery rails—is seen as something that must be quarantined by layers of protocol.

Aviation embraces the idea that errors in judgment happen, and what matters most is the safe response, not bureaucratic accountability. Rail in the UK seems to focus on control and containment, often at the cost of operational fluidity.

Both industries are safety-critical. Yet, rail’s culture can sometimes drift into over-management, where procedural purity overrides common sense—whereas aviation leans on well-trained autonomy, trusting the front-line operator to resolve an issue promptly, then discuss it later if needed.
 

AverageJoe

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Has there been any more information on the overrun given?

It seems to be people are suggesting speed was the factor, but I’ve had low speed slides at 5mph just as I was reaching the stop marker.
I’ve heard of some continuing to slide for some distance even at a low speed and with emergency brake and sand deployed.
 

800001

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It’s hard enough on them getting the doors to open when it’s in the platform.
Really, every 807 I’ve travelled on since they started service, all doors opened exactly as they should at each station.
 

Zomboid

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Both industries are safety-critical. Yet, rail’s culture can sometimes drift into over-management, where procedural purity overrides common sense—whereas aviation leans on well-trained autonomy, trusting the front-line operator to resolve an issue promptly, then discuss it later if needed
Aircraft can go pretty much where they like and take evasive action. It's a meaningless comparison. Obviously Air Traffic Control has authority in where they go, but they're not confined to rails.

I think (at least in the context of this event) we're in mountain out of mole hill territory.

The train overshot, and there could have been any number of reasons for that, but we're talking about 20 minutes for it to happen, the cause to be determined (or at least critical danger to be ruled out as the cause), the course of action to be agreed and carried out and the train to be on its way.

The driver possibly could have said "oh bother, I'll just back up a bit" and pretended nothing had happened, and chances are everything would have been ok - but as soon as you open the door to permitting unsignslled moves from what would then be the back cab at the drivers sole discretion it's only a matter of time before you don't get away with it and all hell breaks loose.
 

Horizon22

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Ours don’t seem to be.

Resources desk: I need a taxi in tomorrow, please. “I’m not sure if I can authorise it, can you contact your driver manager to authorise it, blah blah blah.”

Oh Strewth.

Control: I need a taxi in tomorrow, please, if you want that train to run. “Done”.

They’re people I can work with!

Pretty sure they are knowing who you work for. Sometimes as I say it’s just slightly more junior (not always!) staff being cautious about their limits. And threatening trains don’t run always seems to do the job :D
 

Harpo

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If aviation is to be used as a comparator, would a taxiing aircraft overshooting its stand at a terminal or failing to stop at its runway holding position be resolved in just 20 minutes with everyone safely on their way?
 

Bletchleyite

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Some TOCs have effectively banned using the emergency door release handles in these situations because it's considered an incorrect release of doors, even if the door that's released using the emergency handle is one that's on the platform, and is likely to trigger removal from duty pending investigation if it's done. This is crazy because if you leave passengers on a train for 25 minutes when they can see the platform at their station what's likely to happen? They will likely pull the emergency door release themselves of course.

Not comparable in rules terms but I have been on a bus stuck in interminable traffic away from the stop and the driver said "I'm not allowed to open the doors but I can't stop you if you use the emergency button".

I have used one on a train once late at night when the DOO driver walked off without properly releasing (tried the passcom first and nobody answered) and the platform staff didn't seem to care. Theoretically it's an offence but it's unlikely to be enforced unless the BTP happened to be there.
 

eman_resu

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Axle counters likley not configured for a 'wrong' direction movement are likley to at least produce an alarm. Possibly the supervisory section might correct the count and reset the track after the fact.

However, whilst a signal will drop back to red as soon as the overlap track circuit is occupied, the overlap itself will remain (and therefore the signal in the rear will not step up) until the train has cleared the overlap. The overlaps are set for line speed and other conditions.

Therefore there is a possibility that, a train setting back without appropriate authorisation may re-occupy the overlap and cause the signal in rear to step down again, creating a SPAD issue for the train behind. Hence these moves being classed as unsignalled and requiring the co-operation and authorisation of the signaller wjho can determine any effects to trains in the rear.
 

Iddybiddy05

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Depends on the box .
I am sure any Control will want things moving as quickly or quicker than a signaller..

Point taken…any signaller within the box !
Some are more dynamic than otherr.

Depends on the box .
I am sure any Control will want things moving as quickly or quicker than a signaller..

No, I’ve literally no idea what control do.

It'll be the other way round

Again I’ve no idea what a signaller does.
 

1000 rounders

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Curious, I asked AI how the UK compares to continental Europe…

“In general, Continental Europe tends to have more operational flexibility with overshoot reversals than the UK, but safety standards remain high across all.”

Comparisons to buses early also lead me to think about planes.

When a pilot performs a go-around—essentially a “missed stop” in the sky—it’s treated as a normal, safe, and trained-for manoeuvre. No drama, no shame. It may be logged, but rarely is it considered an incident unless something truly went wrong.

By contrast, on the UK railway, if a train overshoots a platform by a few metres, the response often becomes a minor operational crisis: permission needed, movement frozen, passengers delayed, and complex signalling involvement. A reversal that takes seconds to execute becomes a procedural mountain.

Why this difference? The pilot’s go-around is accepted as part of the real-time judgment space—trained, rehearsed, and often celebrated as evidence of professionalism. On the railway, however, overshooting a platform—often due to human factors like braking misjudgment or slippery rails—is seen as something that must be quarantined by layers of protocol.

Aviation embraces the idea that errors in judgment happen, and what matters most is the safe response, not bureaucratic accountability. Rail in the UK seems to focus on control and containment, often at the cost of operational fluidity.

Both industries are safety-critical. Yet, rail’s culture can sometimes drift into over-management, where procedural purity overrides common sense—whereas aviation leans on well-trained autonomy, trusting the front-line operator to resolve an issue promptly, then discuss it later if needed.
Completely different, and with all due respect, do you think at this stage you are the first to think of it?

Signals are sequential, and are cleared in order, so in theory you could have a signal that was previously a “proceed” aspect now having to go to a more restrictive one, never mind we are discussing the WCML with high speed services.

Just changing ends takes minutes, never mind shutting the train down, then restarting it, which is the bare minimum along with taking to the signaller.

All in all, 20 minutes to change ends, go back to the station, and then change ends again and depart, never mind all the discussions with control and the signaller, they have done well with 20 mins.

Some operators have a go forward only policy, so if a train does overshoot it cannot go back into the station and most in the industry would agree that this is the fastest and safest method.

In theory interests of customer service, some will ask the train to go back into the station, and the outcome is derision. Can’t win.
 

bahnause

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The whole thing is of course very system-specific. If no signals, level crossings, axle counters or similar are involved, the whole thing can be handled very simply. In other cases, you have to consider whether it is worth the effort.

We generally follow the concept of not stopping at all in such cases and finding an alternative solution for the passengers affected. As a rule, this is the better solution overall on a busy network. However, if the train is to be reversed, this is a matter between the signaller and the driver. Both know the rules and regulations, so no involvement of a third party is necessary.
 

stuu

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If aviation is to be used as a comparator, would a taxiing aircraft overshooting its stand at a terminal or failing to stop at its runway holding position be resolved in just 20 minutes with everyone safely on their way?
Exactly, that is a far more appropriate air comparison. A go around is almost always because of an air traffic control instruction, not because the pilot has approached the runway too fast
 

Somewhere

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Again I’ve no idea what a signaller does.
A signaller signals trains within their area according to the rules. If trains are at a stand within their area, trains are at a stand. Setting a trian back would have to be referred to control to make the decision about what to do, then the signaller would carry out that decision within the rules.
Control deal with 'clearing up the mess', as you put it, which could have far ranging consequences all over the country. Perhaps clearing up the mess would cause more mess, if drivers, trains, track or signalling equipment have to be removed from service, depending upon what the cause (or pending investigation) of what the incident was. The cause may not always be immediately apparent.
 

Somewhere

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Ours don’t seem to be.

Resources desk: I need a taxi in tomorrow, please. “I’m not sure if I can authorise it, can you contact your driver manager to authorise it, blah blah blah.”

Oh Strewth.

Control: I need a taxi in tomorrow, please, if you want that train to run. “Done”.

They’re people I can work with!
Control will take the path of least resistance when dealing with something someone else should have dealt with. If someone else doesn't want to make a decision about a taxi, control will just authorise it to make the problem go away.
If anyone has a problem with that, control will just cancel the affected trains, so that the problem doesn't reoccur.
 

bahnause

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If aviation is to be used as a comparator, would a taxiing aircraft overshooting its stand at a terminal or failing to stop at its runway holding position be resolved in just 20 minutes with everyone safely on their way?
In case of the BA A380 taking a wrong turn in Boston after landing, it took around 45 minutes to arrange a pushback truck.
 

King Lazy

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Curious, I asked AI how the UK compares to continental Europe…

“In general, Continental Europe tends to have more operational flexibility with overshoot reversals than the UK, but safety standards remain high across all.”

Comparisons to buses early also lead me to think about planes.

When a pilot performs a go-around—essentially a “missed stop” in the sky—it’s treated as a normal, safe, and trained-for manoeuvre. No drama, no shame. It may be logged, but rarely is it considered an incident unless something truly went wrong.

By contrast, on the UK railway, if a train overshoots a platform by a few metres, the response often becomes a minor operational crisis: permission needed, movement frozen, passengers delayed, and complex signalling involvement. A reversal that takes seconds to execute becomes a procedural mountain.

Why this difference? The pilot’s go-around is accepted as part of the real-time judgment space—trained, rehearsed, and often celebrated as evidence of professionalism. On the railway, however, overshooting a platform—often due to human factors like braking misjudgment or slippery rails—is seen as something that must be quarantined by layers of protocol.

Aviation embraces the idea that errors in judgment happen, and what matters most is the safe response, not bureaucratic accountability. Rail in the UK seems to focus on control and containment, often at the cost of operational fluidity.

Both industries are safety-critical. Yet, rail’s culture can sometimes drift into over-management, where procedural purity overrides common sense—whereas aviation leans on well-trained autonomy, trusting the front-line operator to resolve an issue promptly, then discuss it later if needed.

A go around in aviation is often due to an unstabilised approach. The pilot(s) realise the parameters required for a safe landing are not met and essentially go back into the sky to start from scratch. Sometimes those parameters may be due to external issues such as traffic on the runway or the pilots haven’t been able to configure the aircraft properly to be certain of executing a safe landing. This could again be due to external issues such as crosswinds but equally a lapse in judgement from the pilots such as carrying too much speed. As mentioned they are well trained to spot and make that decision.

In a train the option isn’t to have a full re-attempt immediately as the train must stop first. So once a driver realises the train is unlikely to perform a safe stop they must apply the emergency brake and essentially hope that the train stops in time. Like an aircraft the reason could be external (adhesion etc) or due to the driver (lapse in concentration etc).

As for the railway response treating an overrun as a serious incident as opposed to a go around invoking no shame or drama and trusting the frontline operator to make the decision and talk about it later.

The reason for this is the go around would be generally viewed as a safe course of action in the conditions. The same as a driver losing time due to additional running brake tests and braking earlier in autumn. The drivers judgement would be trusted.

But with an overrun, the decisions made have already been insufficient to prevent the incident. Rather like a go around because a pilot has forgotten to select the gear down and realises too late.

Many stations have a signal on the end so overruns are viewed as potential precursors to possible SPADs. Basically management think “our driver has failed to stop in the correct point on approach to this station. We should look into whether there are any issues with his/her braking technique, lifestyle etc because maybe tomorrow they will fail to stop at the correct point at a signal.”

And a go around wouldn’t always be a no blame issue. If an aircraft was approaching an airfield in a very unstable state (carrying too much speed or not configured correctly, for example having forgotten to put the gear down) I’d expect the pilots would be spoken to about the issue.

Put simply the big differences are that the pilot can use the go around to avoid compounding the incident IF they realise in time which generally they do.
The driver can only use the emergency brake and hope.

But the pilot managers can’t simply have the plane stopped to check the pilot(s) are fit to continue while railway management can.

They similar issues psychologically and from a non technical skills viewpoint but not directly comparable.

Car driving, bus driving, truck driving, train driving, marine vessel handling and aircraft piloting all share many similarities but cannot usually be used as direct comparisons.

For example a large ship approaching a port off course due to whatever reason could be depending on the circumstances like an aircraft and “go around” turning back out to sea and returning. But if a channel is surrounded by shallow water they may need tugs. And if they aren’t available it may be drop an anchor as an emergency move and now they’re more like the train.

But even then there will be considerations that apply only to ships that trains/buses/aircraft and their management wouldn’t need to consider.

The quoted post does however raise questions as to the correct amount of trust to put in trained individuals. Some drivers feel we are treated like children by management and not trusted. But then management would point to incidents where drivers got things very wrong to point out why they can’t just leave us to it.

Again, the aircraft management don’t have the luxury of having a stopped vehicle to put initial checks in place. The aircraft has to land first.
 
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TreacleMiller

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You cannot possibly compare a bus to a 260m long train on one of the busiest railways in the country. You have no idea why the train didn't stop in the platform, medical issues, technical problem, driver unfit for any other reason. The signallers and TOC will want a decent explanation before considering what to do about it, which takes time

Of course he can. I often compare apples to oranges and find myself shocked they taste different, look, different and smell different despite both being fruit.

Theres plenty in the industry that seems excessive. In this instance we aren't talking about one door being off or not quite placed right which is shockingly easy to do.

For the avoidance of doubt - the issue isn't the result of the error, it's why the error took place. That's one of the key differences between a bus driver and train driver - one is very much a driver of just a long car and the other is a safety critical worker.
 

Crossover

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Isn't it illegal to reverse a PSV with passengers onboard without a banksman?

No, absolutely not

I may be wrong but I think some companies may locally bar such manouveres outside of approved areas (such as bus stations) without being banked.

I was on a bus a few years ago where the it and another bus met on a narrow road, with passing points between parked vehicles only being sufficient for a car. Our bus was the one that ended up reversing, but banked by the driver of the other bus. Unsure in this case if it was a company instruction, or just sensible to have someone watching out behind the reversing bus
 

Bletchleyite

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I may be wrong but I think some companies may locally bar such manouveres outside of approved areas (such as bus stations) without being banked.

I was on a bus a few years ago where the it and another bus met on a narrow road, with passing points between parked vehicles only being sufficient for a car. Our bus was the one that ended up reversing, but banked by the driver of the other bus. Unsure in this case if it was a company instruction, or just sensible to have someone watching out behind the reversing bus

Reversing is part of many rural routes - certainly some of the Cornish ones - and a banksman is rarely provided. Though really it should be possible to mitigate that with reversing cameras these days.
 

Mag_seven

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As discussed above I don't think comparisons with buses and or planes are valid. Furthermore it has been explained why such an incident can take some time to resolve so with that in mind we shall draw this discussion to a close.

thanks all
 
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