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Overwritten Carnet

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CarnetUser

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I marked a carnet ticket for use on 5 December, but didn't end up using it. Without realising this would be a problem, I overwrote it for use on 12 December and was stopped at the station as this was spotted by the inspector, and my details were taken in a witness statement. The ticket hadn't been used other than on this journey.

I did this innocently, and without realisation of the consequences, but now am concerned I may be about to be subject to a fine and potentially even a court summons / criminal record / etc.

On the witness statement form there was a section asking if there was any further information I wanted to state, which I left blank.

Does anyone have any advice? Should I reach out to give more details to the claims company? Am I likely to be prosecuted or just subject to some fine?

Start station: Cambridge
End station: Hitchin
(Both have active barriers)
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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I marked a carnet ticket for use on 5 December, but didn't end up using it. Without realising this would be a problem, I overwrote it for use on 12 December and was stopped at the station as this was spotted by the inspector, and my details were taken in a witness statement. The ticket hadn't been used other than on this journey.

I did this innocently, and without realisation of the consequences, but now am concerned I may be about to be subject to a fine and potentially even a court summons / criminal record / etc.

On the witness statement form there was a section asking if there was any further information I wanted to state, which I left blank.

Does anyone have any advice? Should I reach out to give more details to the claims company? Am I likely to be prosecuted or just subject to some fine?

Start station: Cambridge
End station: Hitchin
(Both have active barriers)
Unfortunately for you, this is not a great position to be in.

You are liable for prosecution under Byelaw 18 of the Railway Byelaws 2005. This makes it a strict liability (i.e. intention doesn't matter - similarly to speeding) offence to board a train without a valid ticket on you. Since you didn't have a valid ticket on you when you boarded, I don't think we can conclude anything other than that you were in breach of that. The only defence is if there were no ticketing facilities available at your starting station, or if you had permission to board without a valid ticket - and it would be pretty unusual for either of those to apply in respect of boarding at a major station such as Cambridge.

The alternative law under which you might be prosecuted is Section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA). This makes it an offence to travel, or attempt to travel, by rail without previously having paid the fare, if you intend to avoid payment of the fare. You'll note that intent to avoid payment must be proven here, unlike Byelaw 18. The evidential burden for this, plus the fact that it's a little murky whether you are deemed to have paid the fare for travel if you have already paid for your ticket, but it needs to be validated in some way, means that I would have thought it might be less likely that you would be prosecuted under this. It's simply easier to go for a Byelaw 18 prosecution. That's not to say you won't be prosecuted under RoRA, but in the circumstances, and in general, it's less likely. The one thing that would weigh more towards RoRA prosecution would be the fact that you overwrote the date - whilst you have given a reasonable explanation for this, if it cannot be shown that you didn't actually use the ticket on the originally entered date (something that may be difficult to prove), this may be taken as an indication of dishonesty and intent, even if you tell the Court it was just a mistake.

The penalty upon conviction for either offence is a fine of approximately 75-150% your weekly income - this is adjusted up or down depending on the specifics of a particular offence (see the Sentencing Guidelines here). [There is a cap of £1000 for the fine, but it is unlikely that this would be reached for most people.] It would also be normal to have to pay any fare outstanding, plus the costs of the investigation (usually in the region of £80-150), as well as the victim surcharge.

In addition, a conviction under Byelaw 18 should not result in a record being generated on the Police National Computer (PNC), and it would be considered 'spent' under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 immediately, whilst a conviction under Section 5(3)(a) of RoRA would normally result in a PNC record being generated, and it would only be considered 'spent' one year after conviction. This reflects the fact that RoRA is seen as a more serious offence - and a conviction under it may be seen as an offence of dishonesty.

As for advice for your situation, there's not a great deal you can do at the moment. Perhaps write down an account of what you remember happened (both on the 5th, and today). But you will have to wait until you hear further about the matter. The usual procedure with these kinds of investigations is that you'd receive a letter from the train company that took your details within somewhere between a few weeks and a few months of the original incident. This would normally ask you for your version of events - hence the writing down of the account now, so you can be sure you don't forget anything. You don't have to reply, but it's generally best to, so that everyone is aware of all the circumstances. In this letter it's also worth considering whether you might want to make an offer of out of Court settlement to the train company. Some are more amenable to this than others, and it is often reported that such offers are initially rejected, or simply ignored (even if they are later accepted in a number of cases).

After this first letter you may receive a second letter where they state what they propose to do (drop the matter, offer you a settlement, prosecute for a particular offence). At this point, if you want to settle and haven't yet offered it yourself or been offered it, this would be a good point to offer it. Note that there is no obligation for the train company to engage in any of this correspondence - strictly speaking, they can go straight to laying the information before the Magistrates' Court (and they have 6 months from the date of the incident to do this).

In any case, what's done is done - now it's a waiting game. (Oh, and in case you were wondering whether you might be issued with a Penalty Fare - if you were not issued with one at the time, it is not possible for you to be issued with a Penalty Fare now. Penalty Fares have to be issued when and as irregular travel is detected; they can't be issued "after the fact". It's of course possible you might be offered a settlement somewhat akin to a Penalty Fare in terms of the amount you have to pay, but there are certainly no guarantees, and it would be a totally different kettle of fish legally speaking to an actual Penalty Fare).
 
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kristiang85

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Do you have a Google timeline or something similar to show your movements on the original date to prove you didn't use it? Although this probably isn't great defence anyway, as their argument would be that someone else could have used it.

But generally on here any carnet-related issues, especially where there is questionable marking, don't seem to go down too well as this is something the railway does come down hard on.
 

jon0844

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In future, I'd recommend marking your ticket on the day of travel when you reach the gateline (and before you pass it). Staff can provide a pen or even use a stamp with the date to 'cancel' the ticket as it were. As long as you arrive in time to do so, so don't see your train and run through without filling it in, you'll not waste a ticket if your plans change.

If you do write on the date and then don't travel, you've pretty much ruined your ticket.

GTR has to come down hard on users because the tickets themselves will always work the gates (unless specifically blocked) so a lot of people are tempted to either 'forget' to mark them or alter the date, knowing they'll always work the gates for their validity period (essentially working like a three month season ticket). As such, they'll be going down the MG11 prosecution route and not offering a penalty fare, or a verbal warning.

Personally, I vowed never to use a carnet ticket again after having ruined more than one ticket trying to write the date on. It wasn't worth the potential bother.
 

CarnetUser

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Thank you for the detailed replies. I have recorded an account of events in preparation, and I have checked my iPhone location history which confirms that I drove to and from work on the 5th December and I have saved screenshots with that information. Otherwise it sounds like this is a bad position to have mistakenly got into, so I'll just have to wait to see what happens...
 

_toommm_

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Part of the 'problem' with carnets as that they're so easily abused. It's the same as the 'pay when challenged' mentality - but this time it's 'date when challenged'. As such, TOCs do go down a bit harder on them from what I've seen compared to other regularities. While I believe this is a genuine case of naivety (no offence), I'd just wait to see. But because they are so easily abused, they may suspect the worse and assume you'd done it before.
 

najaB

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I have recorded an account of events in preparation, and I have checked my iPhone location history which confirms that I drove to and from work on the 5th December and I have saved screenshots with that information.
Unfortunately, the location history is of zero relevance since it only shows where your phone was. It doesn't show where either you or the ticket were.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Unfortunately, the location history is of zero relevance since it only shows where your phone was. It doesn't show where either you or the ticket were.
I entirely disagree. Yes, it only proves beyond all doubt where the phone was. But equally, with most people having their phone on them at all times, it is highly likely to provide the reasonable doubt that suggests that a conviction for reusing the ticket would be unsafe*. And reasonable doubt is all the OP must introduce to counter such an accusation.

*Though of course a conviction under RoRA might still be possible - just not for reusing the ticket, at best for overwriting the date.
 

CarnetUser

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I'm considering instructing a solicitor to act on my behalf, and hopefully to get this settled before any court summons. Does anyone have any thoughts, recommendations or past experience of this?
 

najaB

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But equally, with most people having their phone on them at all times, it is highly likely to provide the reasonable doubt that suggests that a conviction for reusing the ticket would be unsafe*
Even if you accept that the OP and phone were together (not a safe assumption), it still says nothing about the ticket. It could easily have been used by someone else.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Even if you accept that the OP and phone were together (not a safe assumption), it still says nothing about the ticket. It could easily have been used by someone else.
It is not for the OP to be proving anything... if GTR want to allege reuse of the ticket, it is them who have to produce some damn good evidence of it being the case. From what we've heard so far, there isn't even enough evidence to meet the civil 'balance of probabilities'. I don't see them bothering to go to all this effort when a Byelaws prosecution is so much more straightforward.

I'm considering instructing a solicitor to act on my behalf, and hopefully to get this settled before any court summons. Does anyone have any thoughts, recommendations or past experience of this?
Instructing a solicitor is going to cost you money that you're never going to see back, unless by some miracle you defend the matter and are lucky with the Judge's/Magistrate's costs order. It might help you negotiate a settlement where one might otherwise not be possible, but I can't personally speaking see the advantage to it in a case such as this, where RoRA is not really a viable option. You are not going to get a criminal record for a Byelaws prosecution even if convicted, so it would be highly rare for it to cause you any problems at all in your employment etc.

If you still nevertheless want to have a solicitor, there are of course "railway law" specialists, but they often charge a very handsome fee even though they won't necessarily bring a great deal more to the table with a simple matter such as this. A normal criminal defence solicitor ought to be plenty - the Law Society has a solicitor finding tool, where you can search by location and area of competency.
 

najaB

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I don't see them bothering to go to all this effort when a Byelaws prosecution is so much more straightforward.
Neither do I. But it doesn't change the fact that location history is virtually useless in this kind of case.
 

Llanigraham

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I entirely disagree. Yes, it only proves beyond all doubt where the phone was. But equally, with most people having their phone on them at all times, it is highly likely to provide the reasonable doubt that suggests that a conviction for reusing the ticket would be unsafe*. And reasonable doubt is all the OP must introduce to counter such an accusation.

*Though of course a conviction under RoRA might still be possible - just not for reusing the ticket, at best for overwriting the date.

That is not a safe assumption.
There is reasonable doubt, therefore it cannot be proof.
To me this is very bad advice.
 

Llanigraham

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It is not for the OP to be proving anything... if GTR want to allege reuse of the ticket, it is them who have to produce some damn good evidence of it being the case. From what we've heard so far, there isn't even enough evidence to meet the civil 'balance of probabilities'. I don't see them bothering to go to all this effort when a Byelaws prosecution is so much more straightforward.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you told when you agree to purchase this type of ticket that there is a set way they have to be "dated" and that doing anything else may not be accepted? I am sure that has been stated numerous times on here.
Does this case not suggest that the OP has not abided by those conditions?
 

skyhigh

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Yes, it only proves beyond all doubt where the phone was.
It doesn't - you can quite easily download an app that'll trick your phone/location history into thinking the phone is somewhere it's not. Location history is of no relevance to anything.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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It doesn't - you can quite easily download an app that'll trick your phone/location history into thinking the phone is somewhere it's not. Location history is of no relevance to anything.
I don't think it can be written off just like that. Any kind of evidence can be tampered with in this way - so to suggest that, because it is possible to modify location history in some cases, it is of no relevance to anything is being unnecessarily pessimistic. As I have said, if there is an accusation of reuse of the ticket it is for the TOC to prove this beyond all reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt could well be introduced by the location history, quite apart from the defendant's witness testimony.
 

Clip

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I don't think it can be written off just like that. Any kind of evidence can be tampered with in this way - so to suggest that, because it is possible to modify location history in some cases, it is of no relevance to anything is being unnecessarily pessimistic. As I have said, if there is an accusation of reuse of the ticket it is for the TOC to prove this beyond all reasonable doubt. Reasonable doubt could well be introduced by the location history, quite apart from the defendant's witness testimony.
There is proof beyond reasonable doubt that the ticket has been reused as it was dated the 5th its validity ended after that dates validity and it was again tried to be reused at a later date with, WITH a different date.

Now would you like to test your theory in a court of law?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Given how trivial it is to fake, it really wouldn't.
It's trivial for a TOC to fake a revenue report, too. So how is that enough to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the passenger is guilty of an offence, and yet location history doesn't even introduce reasonable doubt? Sorry, but that simply does not add up. Location history is clearly not infallible - no evidence can be - but suggesting that because it can be faked, just like all other evidence, it is of no value is just a fundamental misunderstanding of the weight put to different types of evidence.

I'll put it this way, if I was the judge/jury and the TOC had a witness statement from their revenue officer saying that the defendant had done X, Y and Z, the TOC then admits that the revenue officer was wearing a body cam but somehow they are unable to provide the footage, and then the defandant gives a witness statement saying they were not there and they show the location history to 'prove' it.

That would be way more than I would need to find not guilty. In fact it wouldn't even reach the civil balance of probabilities. If we're discrediting location history because it can be faked, we may as well discredit all witness statements - after all, what's to stop the TOC changing the revenue officer's witness statement to suit their prosecution (e.g. changing it to say that the defendant admitted intent to avoid payment, when they actually denied it).
 

najaB

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It's trivial for a TOC to fake a revenue report, too. So how is that enough to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the passenger is guilty of an offence...
It isn't, and I believe that you know it isn't (straw man). Nobody would or should be convicted just on the basis of a revenue report.
...and yet location history doesn't even introduce reasonable doubt.
By itself, no. No more than "My girlfriend was there, but you can't talk with her because she's in Canada." helps with a defence.
Location history is clearly not infallible - no evidence can be - but suggesting that because it can be faked, just like all other evidence, it is of no value is just a fundamental misunderstanding of the value of evidence.
If the location history is uncorroborated, then it's useless. If it's corroborated by other evidence (e.g. a witness stating that they saw the OP drive to the office that day) then that's strong enough in itself and doesn't need the location history to back it up.
 

47421

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The weight given to the location history in court, like all kinds of evidence, would depend in large part on the credibility of the person leading it. If the judge or magistrate - based on the overall demeanor of the witness and the credibility of their evidence generally - considered them a credible witness then the location history may well be considered relevant in coming to that conclusion. The whole point of having people appear in court is so the court can consider what they say in the round. To say it is useless without corroboration in my view goes much too far. Not conclusive either way - but if court considers witness credible generally they may well conclude that it was unlikely that they would under oath say that a forged location history was true.

Of course this assumes you are actually in court, and as in these situations generally, ideally you want to not go to court as the outcome there is so uncertain.
 

najaB

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If the judge or magistrate - based on the overall demeanor of the witness and the credibility of their evidence generally - considered them a credible witness then the location history may well be considered relevant in coming to that conclusion.
I don't know if you are aware of how unreliable location history data is, but it really is proof of nothing. Device location history is proof of where a device *might* have been (since it's trivial to fake/fool/be wrong), where said device *might* have been in the possesion of the defendant (or equally might have been borrowed by or loaned to someone else).
 

47421

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I don't know if you are aware of how unreliable location history data is, but it really is proof of nothing. Device location history is proof of where a device *might* have been (since it's trivial to fake/fool/be wrong), where said device *might* have been in the possesion of the defendant (or equally might have been borrowed by or loaned to someone else).

Yes I understand your point about the reliability of the evidence, but my point is a separate one about the credibility of a witness, and in my view location evidence (however unconvincing on its own) may well be considered by a court as relevant to determining the credibility of a witness overall. But as I say this is a slightly redundant discussion as best solution is to avoid going to court
 

najaB

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Yes I understand your point about the reliability of the evidence, but my point is a separate one about the credibility of a witness, and in my view location evidence (however unconvincing on its own) may well be considered by a court as relevant to determining the credibility of a witness overall.
I think we're saying more or less the same thing "Don't depend on location history as a defence in itself". Agreed that the goal should be avoiding Court in the first place.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I think we're saying more or less the same thing "Don't depend on location history as a defence in itself". Agreed that the goal should be avoiding Court in the first place.
Indeed, but your earlier suggestion that location history:
[is] useless
in terms of evidence, isn't really true. It's not conclusive, but together with a witness statement by the defendant it could, as 47421 has suggested, form a solid defence.
 

Llanigraham

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I don't know if you are aware of how unreliable location history data is, but it really is proof of nothing. Device location history is proof of where a device *might* have been (since it's trivial to fake/fool/be wrong), where said device *might* have been in the possesion of the defendant (or equally might have been borrowed by or loaned to someone else).

Agreed.
I am currently very definately sat in my house in Mid Wales, but my computer (on the web) shows I am in Tamworth as that is where the current server is, and my mobile phone is trangulated to a mast in Llanidloes for the mobile signal, but to a server in London for the web!
And yet people on here are saying that location services are accurate!! Not a hope in hell's chance!
 

Llanigraham

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Indeed, but your earlier suggestion that location history:

in terms of evidence, isn't really true. It's not conclusive, but together with a witness statement by the defendant it could, as 47421 has suggested, form a solid defence.
But that isn't what you said at first!
You did not mention corrobative evidence.
 

some bloke

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my details were taken in a witness statement. ...
On the witness statement form there was a section asking if there was any further information I wanted to state, which I left blank.

Does anyone have any advice?
What did you state at the time?
Perhaps write down an account of what you remember happened
iPhone location history...confirms that I drove to and from work on the 5th December
Perhaps there is other evidence that might contribute to a defence, beyond what you can remember and the location history.

For example, were you at meetings, or did you carry out work that could only have been done at that place? What times did you go to and from work? Are those the usual times you travel there?
Are there documents, such as emails saying "I'm at the office"? If you are willing to take trouble over this, maybe other people can state in writing that you were there.

However, what if the train company were to argue that you might have used the ticket before or after work, or at some point between arriving at work and leaving there?

On the other problem - whether someone else used the ticket - is there anything that might help your case, such as the handwriting? Others are better qualified than me on whether at an appropriate time, for example, it's worth sending pictures of other instances where you've written those numbers and letters, perhaps on previously-completed documents.

Perhaps someone experienced can comment on this: Where a train company is suggesting it might prosecute, is it appropriate to make an affidavit in the hope that the company will infer the accused person is serious?
if court considers witness credible generally they may well conclude that it was unlikely that they would under oath...

As a non-lawyer I'm guessing that that is an important point, and also that a related consideration applies before court: if you up the stakes by producing various evidence, even though some might be easy to forge, you're challenging the company to call you a fraud beyond the original accusation. That approach would seem more persuasive if communications are consistent with innocence.

I'm considering instructing a solicitor to act on my behalf, and hopefully to get this settled before any court summons. Does anyone have any thoughts, recommendations or past experience of this?

Perhaps it would be a good idea to post the sequence of events here.
 
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